Was satan really evil or is it just exaggerated propoganda?

Originally posted by heart
Okay, maybe I'm not understanding what you are meaning, Jenyar. If you are stating that the parents are responsible- are you saying God isn't responsible for the children dying..and this somehow dismisses Deut 24:16?

Read this again...please: Deuteronomy 24:16. Children will not be put to death for the sins of their father
It sounds to me like you have already decided what you want to hear, so I'll keep it short this time:

Children will not be put to death for the sins of their fathers - it says nowhere children will not die. It only says, as I have pointed out, that those involved with rebellion against God will be held accountable for the death of those who were innocent and would have escaped the punishment had they heeded the warning.

But in the end "death comes to us all" in one form or another - no Biblical law can prevent anybody from dying, innocent or guilty.

Are you saying the above scripture has nothing to do with this story? Excuse me..but, WHY did those babies and children die? You can hold the parents responsible all you'd like and say, "god" warned them and do all the other tap dancing, break dancing, and disco moves you want- but those babies didn't attack Israel, Jenyar! Therefore, they were being punished with DEATH because of what their parents had done- actually, what was done 450 years prior to Saul becoming King
Yes they shared the punishment - no it wasn't for their fathers, it was because of their fathers, in more than one way. Their fathers 1)brought it upon them by attacking the Israelites, among them innocent women and children 2)did not turn away from the path that would lead to death.

When you taunt a snake and one of your children get bitten, it doesn't matter whatever else you did or did not do or whether your child was "innocent". Every action has consequences, sometimes unhappy ones.

God protected his own children jealously. The Amalekites should have done the same.

Because they didn't attack Israel- all babies do are nurse, make goo goo noises, cry, poop, burp, and sleep- Since when are any of those things a sin?? God said he REMEMBERED what had happened 450 years prior... Therefore, they couldn't of had anything to do with what had upset "god".
Do you think the "guilty" ones lived 450 years? Obviously, as I have shown before, they continued plaguing the Israelites and probably everybody else. There are other examples of people who acted like barbarians in history.

That isn't the point. Please don't get me wrong, as I stated in the prior post that I do not condone slaughter of any child be it Israelite or Amalekite- My beef with this is "god" commanded all the Amalekite babies/children to be killed- those babies couldn't defend themselves. They knew nothing about what had been done- but "god" chose to kill them any way. That's sick and wrong, Jenyar.
I don't condone any slaughter either. But not liking a war doesn't stop one. In my opinion though, and from the perspective of the brutal way of life at the time, those children wouldn't have been better off alone in the desert without parents. As the word for "destroy" indicates, they were given over to God: God simply took over their lives - He became their father, since their own fathers were not taking care of them.

There is a HUGE difference in a tiny INNOCENT baby and a serial rapist bucko! *screams out the window in frustration..turns around and smiles* Point blank, what crime did those babies commit, Jenyar? Being at the wrong place at the wrong time?
My point was that saying someone is innocent does not make them innocent. The judge decides that - we don't. But I have told you the only obvious reason that they died was because they were guiltless victims of their own indiscriminate parents.

Just to show you that guilt or innocence isn't the problem: when chldren are abused by their parents, they are obviously innocent. Why then can the state assume authority over their parents by taking them into custody? Do you have the authority to declare those children better off alive? We can only take note of what happened and learn from it. God's authority to make decisions is not in dispute.

Ohhhh, so it all boils down to that they were put to death because of their fathers sins...but, they weren't held accountable, meaning they probably are in heaven instead of hell, huh? This is insane!
Why is it suddenly insane that they might be innocent? The Bible doesn't say they went to hell - in fact, we don't even know where the parents went! Do you know? Because I don't.

Well, Jenyar, the problem with that is it states Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment If one is dead, how could they be punished eternally? Death ceases...eternity is forever.
Death only breaks our contract with death and the law.
When the last trumpet sounds (the last warning) all the dead will be resurrected to be judged. When you have a court hearing, they don't just summon the innocent ones. They summon everyone involved, and then judge their guilt or innocence. If there were no justice, either everybody would remain dead, or everybody would live with God regardless whether they recognized His authority or not.
 
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Jenyar,

Children will not be put to death for the sins of their fathers - it says nowhere children will not die

Yes they shared the punishment - no it wasn't for their fathers, it was because of their fathers, in more than one way. Their fathers 1)brought it upon them by attacking the Israelites, among them innocent women and children 2)did not turn away from the path that would lead to death.

If you'll read 2 Kings 14:5,6 as follows:

5 Now it came about, as soon as the kingdom was firmly in his hand, that he killed his servants who had slain the king his father.
6 But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the LORD commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin."

So this means they wouldn't die BECAUSE of their fathers sins- for they are to be accountable for their own sin, as you keep pointing out. Their PHYSICAL lives were spared. Why? It says because of
Deut 24:16

Yet, in the flood and in 1 Samuel 15:3, those babies and children died and their lives weren't spared- as in 2 Kings 14:6 ,and also quotes why in reference to Deut 24:16.

Something just doesn't add up here, Jenyar.

There are other examples of people who acted like barbarians in history.

There are examples of the biblical "god" acting like one too!

I don't condone any slaughter either. But not liking a war doesn't stop one

Yes you do, you keep justifying why it was okay for "god" to have killed innocent babies and children.

In my opinion though, and from the perspective of the brutal way of life at the time, those children wouldn't have been better off alone in the desert without parents. As the word for "destroy" indicates, they were given over to God: God simply took over their lives - He became their father, since their own fathers were not taking care of them.

Oh yeah, that's the way to solve things- if there are children who have "sinful" parents, just kill them so "god" can take care of them...makes a lot of sense to me. NOT!

Why is it suddenly insane that they might be innocent? The Bible doesn't say they went to hell - in fact, we don't even know where the parents went! Do you know? Because I don't.

The insane part is not them being innocent- it's your justification for "god" killing them
 
If you'll read 2 Kings 14:5,6 as follows: 5 Now it came about, as soon as the kingdom was firmly in his hand, that he killed his servants who had slain the king his father. 6 But the sons of the slayers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the book of the Law of Moses, as the LORD commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin."
So this means they wouldn't die BECAUSE of their fathers sins- for they are to be accountable for their own sin, as you keep pointing out. Their PHYSICAL lives were spared. Why? It says because of Deut 24:16
Yet, in the flood and in 1 Samuel 15:3, those babies and children died and their lives weren't spared- as in 2 Kings 14:6 ,and also quotes why in reference to Deut 24:16.
Good point. So it seems the law was enforced generally, but not when God decided to cleanse the earth of their kind. God has the authority, we don't, the Israelites didn't. Saul was punished because he forgot God's authority and acted on his own.

I'll summarize it:
1)We know they only shared the punishment because God ordered it. It doesn't give us us license to break any laws.
2)We don't know whether they were guilty. Their "innocence" is a sentimental (i.e. not an objective) assumption, based on legalistic principles, NOT on God's authority or ability to judge.

If you deny God's mercy, God's grace, or God's judgement, you'll have a problem with God (and hell). If you heed God's warnings, accept God's mercy and God's judgement - you will live accordingly and your children will also experience your love, and have no fear of hell.
 
You're dancing around it again!

Originally posted by Jenyar
If you deny God's mercy, God's grace, or God's judgement, you'll have a problem with God (and hell). If you heed God's warnings, accept God's mercy and God's judgement - you will live accordingly and your children will also experience your love, and have no fear of hell.

Your tap shoes must be getting worn out by now. Let me rephrase this correctly for you, Jenyar. If you deny that you are the bearer of God's mercy and grace on Earth, you also deny that you are Godly. Therefore, you exist in a meaningless vacuum--or Hell on Earth because the main purpose of your very existence is not fulfilled. God's 'warnings' would be cumulative human 'warnings' so to speak. Yes, you would need to accept that you are filled with God's mercy, but judgment and vengence again are part of the collective consciousness, not an individual person's right to judge his fellow human being. Hell only exists when God is removed from the human race and put upon a big fluffy cloud in the sky. God is within us all, and until everyone realizes this, his concept of God should he have one, is remote and unobtainable. If this isn't hell, I don't know what is. The only fear of hell resides within the human psyche where the Spirit of God has chosen to live. Therefore, human beings should have no fear. We represent God on the face of the Earth. That's the message Jesus tried to relay, and that's the same message Paul destroyed.
 
Jenyar,

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you're covering up again for the biblical "god". You have so many different rules for interpreting of the bible - I'm sure it's hard for you to keep up with them.

You state that "god" kills because he's god and that makes him entitled.. that or because he is the only one who can judge. So what you are saying is he has the right to kill, steal, lie, etc.. because he doesn't have to abide by the laws that were given to men by HIM. He can make them up and do as he desires..because he's "god". That's what he did when he went against Deut 24:16.

I'll still stick with my statement that God would indeed have the power to do those things, but I find it hard to believe a true God would abuse his/her power like that. Call me sentimental all you want..but, evidentially according to the bible, Jesus was pretty sentimental as well.. He did many things because he was "moved with compassion" etc.. Want to talk emotions... "god" acted out on them when he became angry, jealous etc God will even kill children if they happen to offend you- all you have to do is ask him to strike them down. He killed 42 of them in 2 Kings 2:23-24

23
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up, baldhead," they shouted, "go up, baldhead!"
24
The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the children to pieces.


I guess in "god's" eyes he thought it would be better to kill them and "cleanse the earth of their kind." :rolleyes:

You think one shouldn't question why "god" killed people in the Bible- besides, if he gave a reason for it, we wouldn't be able to understand it anyway. :rolleyes: Where is the learning in that? Sounds more like "god" wants to hide the reasons for his brutality. He's done a pretty good job of it too, because there are many like you who refuse to think for themselves, and defend things he did in the bible. Jump through the hoop, Jenyar. Don't question..just react in defense...Don't think for yourself, Jenyar...it wouldn't be right.
 
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Not to mention, Deut also has this important rule: If you do a poo, make sure you cover it over or god will abandon you.... :bugeye:
 
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you're covering up again for the biblical "god". You have so many different rules for interpreting of the bible - I'm sure it's hard for you to keep up with them.
Only one rule: I interpret the Bible with the Bible.

You state that "god" kills because he's god and that makes him entitled.. that or because he is the only one who can judge. So what you are saying is he has the right to kill, steal, lie, etc.. because he doesn't have to abide by the laws that were given to men by HIM. He can make them up and do as he desires..because he's "god". That's what he did when he went against Deut 24:16
You confuse the God of the Bible with M*W's god. God does not lie - which is why you get to read even the parts about Him you don't like. Steal? Everything belongs to God, he permits wealth and poverty - if you own something and don't thank God for it, you are stealing from Him. I'm sure you won't be complaining very loudly if He "stole" your suffering or sins. Admit it: you're biased towards yourself.

16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Will they die for their fathers? No. Will they die? Yes: for their own sin.

Where are we unclear about this? Have you ever known anybody who has not died?

I'll still stick with my statement that God would indeed have the power to do those things, but I find it hard to believe a true God would abuse his/her power like that. Call me sentimental all you want..but, evidentially according to the bible, Jesus was pretty sentimental as well.. He did many things because he was "moved with compassion" etc.. Want to talk emotions... "god" acted out on them when he became angry, jealous etc God will even kill children if they happen to offend you- all you have to do is ask him to strike them down. He killed 42 of them in 2 Kings 2:23-24
It's not abuse of power if it is within His right to judge. Jesus was the human face of God. Through Jesus we know that suffering and death is not punishment, but the result of inequity. Did Jesus die for the sins of His parents?No. Did Jesus die? Yes. And since He was sinless, death had no rights on Him under God's law, and He was justified and God raised Him from death. Jesus represents those children who died - He represents us.

You read 2 Kings 2, but you don't believe it. How many children were insulting God's prophet, if 42 "of them" were killed? Probably quite a few. Everybody thought it was fine - no consequences. They did not think God really existed, or that His prophets truly represented Him. He was just a bald man warning them not to take his God lightly.

In case you still fail to get the message: Do not take God lightly - your existence is in His hands, and you might just be held accoutable for your ignorance after all.

"If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted." (Lev 26.21)

There was a time when a man's justice was expected to include his children. God changed that, so that you could have the priviledge of seeing injustice exposed and God's justice (and mercy) revealed:

Jeremiah 31
29 "In those days people will no longer say,
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'

30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes-his own teeth will be set on edge.
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD ,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

Unfortunately, once again, people didn't take the warnings seriously. And in 2 Chronicles 36 we read ...

15 The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them through his messengers again and again, because he had pity on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

You think one shouldn't question why "god" killed people in the Bible- besides, if he gave a reason for it, we wouldn't be able to understand it anyway. Where is the learning in that? Sounds more like "god" wants to hide the reasons for his brutality. He's done a pretty good job of it too, because there are many like you who refuse to think for themselves, and defend things he did in the bible. Jump through the hoop, Jenyar. Don't question..just react in defense...Don't think for yourself, Jenyar...it wouldn't be right.
Question all you like. So you should. But if you don't listen, you won't learn, and you won't understand either. Go ahead, make your case against God.
 
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What's the problem?

Read your bible very carefully and you will discover that God and Satan are one and the same person. In other words, Satan is Just God being an asshole.
 
Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by revbill2001
Read your bible very carefully and you will discover that God and Satan are one and the same person. In other words, Satan is Just God being an asshole.
If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
 
The God of the Bible? Who needs Him?

Originally posted by Jenyar
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Only one rule: I interpret the Bible with the Bible.
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(This is your problem, dancing Jenyar. Interpreting the Bible with the Bible leaves no room for the truth. You tragically limit your perspective of reality.)
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You confuse the God of the Bible with M*W's god.
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(You are the one who is confused. I don't have a separate God from the Bible. The God I believe in is the One God. It is YOU who has a separate God--the one you've created in your limited capacity mind. The one you have interpreted in your Bible with the Bible. Your understanding of God is very limited in scope. 'My' God encompasses the entire human race and all creation. I don't need a Bible to interpret my understanding of God. Perhaps in the time your Bible was written, that was their understanding of God. But, hey, Jenyar, you've been dancing around the Bible like Salome. This is the 21st century. God has evolved from way back then. You're the one who's missed the whole purpose of the efficacy of God's grace on Earth!)
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God does not lie...
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(No, the Bible lies. But when you interpret the Bible with the Bible, how could you be expected to know that the Bible lies?)
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Where are we unclear about this? Have you ever known anybody who has not died?
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Please, Jenyar, there is no death to the spirit. We are spiritual beings who happen to have been issued a physical body, an Earthsuit, so we could walk upon the Earth as vessels for God. The Earthsuit is only temporary, then we shed it. The Spirit goes on for eternity. This is why I don't believe in your God.)
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It's not abuse of power if it is within His right to judge. Jesus was the human face of God. Through Jesus we know that suffering and death is not punishment, but the result of inequity. Did Jesus die for the sins of His parents?No. Did Jesus die? Yes. And since He was sinless, death had no rights on Him under God's law, and He was justified and God raised Him from death. Jesus represents those children who died - He represents us.
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(The God I believe in is not judgmental. Why should God be judgmental? God already knows what's in the heart of the human race. That precludes any judgment. Again, this is the interpretation of your Bible with your Bible. It's no wonder you are totally lost.)
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In case you still fail to get the message: Do not take God lightly - your existence is in His hands, and you might just be held accoutable for your ignorance after all.
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(Jenyar, you are the one who fails to get the message. Please don't try to confuse others with your limited concept of God. How can anyone "take God lightly?" That is not possible. We are the Spirit of God on Earth. God's existence is in OUR HANDS.)
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(This is an interesting quote from your Bible. "The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent WORD to them through his MESSENGERS again and again, because he had pity on HIS PEOPLE and ON HIS DWELLING PLACE. But they MOCKED God's MESSENGERS, despised his words and scoffed at his PROPHETS until the wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.")
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(I know you interpret this Biblical statement only with your Bible, but I interpret it through prophecy and discernment. It's pretty simple to me. God's dwelling place is within his people. God has sent messengers to relay this message to all God's people. It is you, Jenyar, who scoffs at God's messengers. It is you, Jenyar, who has aroused the wrath of God. It is you, Jenyar, who will have "no remedy.")
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Question all you like. So you should. But if you don't listen, you won't learn, and you won't understand either. Go ahead, make your case against God.
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(Jenyar, it is you who make YOUR case against God.)
 
Jenyar,

You confuse the God of the Bible with M*W's god. God does not lie - which is why you get to read even the parts about Him you don't like.

I think M*W brought up a very good point regarding the Bible being false. The Bible is full of contradictions and inconsistencies, except when one is reading it while wearing their super christian glasses. The authors can't straighten out how many animals went on the ark, who was at Jesus' tomb, etc.. So what makes you think that they got any of it right? Don't give me that song and dance of how one should read and overlook the physical narrative events and focus on the meat of the story. If some of it can be false...half, most, or all can be.

It's not abuse of power if it is within His right to judge

Just like Saddam Hussein, when in power, had the right to decide who he would torture or kill? Don't jump so fast there, Jenyar... I know you want to say Saddam isn't God, therefore he didn't have the right... but think about it. You seem to think just because it's God he has a right to do whatever...even though it is obviously wrong.

You read 2 Kings 2, but you don't believe it. How many children were insulting God's prophet, if 42 "of them" were killed? Probably quite a few. Everybody thought it was fine - no consequences. They did not think God really existed, or that His prophets truly represented Him. He was just a bald man warning them not to take his God lightly

The only amount it states in this story is 42, but I don't see the number of children being relevant.
How do you know those boys didn't think God really existed..it didn't state that, is this another one of your "interpreting the bible with the bible" or umm?

As far as the bald man warning them... it doesn't say he warned them, Jenyar. Now please think for a moment. These were children, yes, some children will tease and say things to others- that is simply what they were doing, teasing him because he was bald. Elisha couldn't take the teasing and cursed them in the name of the Lord-

In case you still fail to get the message: Do not take God lightly - your existence is in His hands, and you might just be held accountable for your ignorance after all

This didn't' have anything to do with "god". It had to do with a bunch of kids who were simply teasing a man for being bald, Jenyar. :rolleyes: If you really believe "god" is this low...why the heck doesn't he run around killing children today as he did in the Bible? There have been lots of people make fun of begging preachers and their looks etc..

You just totally blow my mind, Jenyar. You believe with all your heart that as long as "god" says it and does it...it's okay with you. There is a lady who lives in my home town who killed her baby just the other day because "god" told her to. So it must be "okay" right?

16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Will they die for their fathers? No. Will they die? Yes: for their own sin.

Where are we unclear about this? Have you ever known anybody who has not died?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhgrrrrrrrrhhhhhh I thought we were already past this- you totally don't get it... :bugeye: *bites tongue*
 
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well, i thought jenyar gave a mighty good case. u must have some spiritual discernment to see the point jenyar was trying to make. god is not man, and u are relating to him on your terms- in other words, putting yourself above god, claiming yourself to be god, ( or your version thereof ).
hope that helps:D
 
The concept of God.

Originally posted by firingseeds
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well, i thought jenyar gave a mighty good case. u must have some spiritual discernment to see the point jenyar was trying to make. god is not man, and u are relating to him on your terms- in other words, putting yourself above god, claiming yourself to be god, ( or your version thereof ).
hope that helps:D
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(I would like to step in here and comment on your post. How do you know "god is not man?" By what you've been told by your religion? As far as relating to God on one's OWN terms, that is far better than trying to relate to God on some man-made religion's terms. This disallows for the personal relationship we should have with God. We are NOTHING without God, just a big blob of protoplasm with about the same intelligence and spirituality of an amoeba. Why is it so foreign to you to see yourself as part of the One Spirit of God? Why do Xians remove themselves from the One Spirit of God? This is because of what your man-made mythological religion has ingrained in your mind--to be a lowly sinner and so far beneath God! You're all WRONG! We have always been a part of the Spirit of God. God loved us so much that he created a physical body for us to use while we were here on Earth. The Spirit of God has never changed. Our Earthsuits come and go. Why can't Xians see this beautiful concept of God? Whose to say you are right or I am right? No one knows God more than those who carry the Spirit of God over the Face of the Earth. To know God is to be God. This is the salvation you are looking for from a dead Rabbi. This is Heaven, here and now. Being a part of the One Spirit of God is eternal life. Isn't this what Xians hope to attain?
 
medicine woman

hi. yeah, i understand what ya saying, and yes, i accept god is god of all mankind, and each individual is part of god's creation.
but, u must understand, it's service to god, not service to ourselves, that is the truth of god. all evil-doers serve noone but themselves, and there are some horrendous things done.
it is very difficult for catholics to come to terms with things, as we all know; but , if u look to life, u will see that training in god is a good thing, and not a nightmare.
if u have one beacon to life, close out all the shadows ( like the parting of the red sea ), and just see what is there at the end.
i don't believe serving jesus takes away your life, but justifies it; and we only ever need to justify ourselves to jesus, not man or religion.
hope that helps
:D
 
well, i thought jenyar gave a mighty good case. u must have some spiritual discernment to see the point jenyar was trying to make

Yeah yeah, I know...one must have the "special christian" glasses in order to see or understand. My my.."god" really doesn't make things easy for the non-christian to convert, does he? However, his threat of hell seems to work fairly well in the "converting" department with those who fear it. We must warn all the children not to make fun of bald preachers! Sound the alarms- alert the news channels.. otherwise, there might be a lot of bears out there after them.

god is not man, and u are relating to him on your terms- in other words, putting yourself above god, claiming yourself to be god, ( or your version thereof ).
hope that helps

Would you rather me just be a puppet on a string and march around in those damned glasses chanting God is holy, he can do no wrong, in unison with all the other christians? Besides, you are basing your entire religion on something MEN wrote.
 
hi, heart, nicely stated.
...then u also are basing your case on something MAN wrote.
ohh, bytheway, u appear to have a set of those glasses
well done
 
Re: medicine woman

Originally posted by firingseeds
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...but, u must understand, it's service to god, not service to ourselves, that is the truth of god.
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(My point exactly! The only reason we are here in physical form is to glorify God. If that's not service to God, I don't know what is!)
 
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