Was satan really evil or is it just exaggerated propoganda?
- Thread starter Dr Lou Natic
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God would be killing his own creations.
Well, according to the Bible God created evil Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
I have heard christians say they think that is God's means for testing them, to prove they are solid in their faith etc
What I do not understand about that is according to the bible it says, for he ..knoweth the secrets of the heart. - Psalms 44:21
If he knows their hearts..why would he have a need to "test" them?
But, I guess even Heaven is not a safety net..because evidently you can sin there too.. That's what happened with Lucifer (aka: Satan)
By testing us, we gain a sense of accomplishent and we prove to ourselves that we love God. If we fail, it becomes a learning experience.
No, God also gave the angels a choice to obey him or not. However the choice to disobey or obey was final. Once our hearts are purified we will not sin.
This is one of the passages that help me understand why the the book of job personifies evil as an autonomous being, or an "adversary". There is a difference in the "evil" caused by God and the "evil" in the world. One is a dishonest, destructive force called "Satan" that goes against God's express will. It is a fire that consumes and burns with hatred. But God's tests are like fire that tempers and cleans. From our earthly perspective, both look the same - both are unfortunate and unpleasant. We prompt both, but one is initialized by us, and the other by God. When you believe in God, and are convinced of your innocence, you can be sure that you will be able to prevail, because God will not test you above your abilities. When you are guilty, it is up to you to change and bring yourself in line with God's will.
So whether "evil" is good or bad, is a matter between you and God. Read Job - it's an excellent study on the subject.
As okinrus said, our experience of it gives us a chance to "make up our minds" where we are going, and think twice about what we are doing. It is a learning experience. In my own life, suffering has been almost like a miracle itself, in that it happened at a time where I didn't realize my position before God. It is still that way.
Also, Jesus put things in another perspective: by suffering we identify with Jesus, we realize that there is no worse test than death, and that it has been conquered. "Taking up your cross" also means carrying the instrument of your death around with you...
Exactly: God knows our hearts, and therefore knows that it is sometimes necessary to purify us with an event, something we can feel in our lives. Nothing is as real as suffering - and when you experience God's love during a time of suffering, it is not something you easily forget or ccan deny afterwards. You'll lie to yourself if you deny that the love you experienced was real.
We are not angels. The Bible says we will judge over angels.But, I guess even Heaven is not a safety net..because evidently you can sin there too.. That's what happened with Lucifer (aka: Satan)
Jenyar and okinrus,
The bible says god created evil- and you both want to jump on the good god jolly train and overlook that the bible says god created evil and change that word into "TESTING"
Now, if God meant TESTING to say pump one up spiritually by putting them through hell tried and true..etc ...why didn't he just say that in THAT particular verse? How odd he would say EVIL. This means God created suffering, wrongdoing, sorrow, distress, misfortune,...etc
Which I guess is why his "son" came NOT to bring peace ..but rather a sword..
Luke 12:51
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Sounds like a good episode for Jerry Springer)
How about Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
okinrus
Jenyar
It just seems you both make up things to fit what you want to believe- Like making up excuses for the christian god...why he does it this way for some...this for others..etc
I find it odd how you both think all spiritual teachings in the bible are 100% translated correctly, on top of that you both think that the men that wrote those stories didn't put their OWN opinions in... ie.. drinking is wrong...wives should obey their husbands...if you don't do this you'll go to hell...
You both admit that humans are not perfect...I have news for you...the men that wrote those stories were not perfect either. How many preachers have you heard proclaim -God told me (fill in the blank)..with tears streaming down their eyes...either they were good actors..or they really believed whatever it was they thought God told them... THEN, they turn around a week or month later and say;
God showed me I was wrong... This is how it should be (fill in the blank). I have heard MANY preachers do this, and I have news...those preachers aren't any different then the men that wrote the stories of the Bible.
The bible says god created evil- and you both want to jump on the good god jolly train and overlook that the bible says god created evil and change that word into "TESTING"
Now, if God meant TESTING to say pump one up spiritually by putting them through hell tried and true..etc ...why didn't he just say that in THAT particular verse? How odd he would say EVIL. This means God created suffering, wrongdoing, sorrow, distress, misfortune,...etc
Which I guess is why his "son" came NOT to bring peace ..but rather a sword..
Luke 12:51
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Sounds like a good episode for Jerry Springer)
How about Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
okinrus
Where does it say that? Can you give me a scripture or are you going by spoon-fed information?
Jenyar
There is a scripture that says only angels can sin in heaven?
It just seems you both make up things to fit what you want to believe- Like making up excuses for the christian god...why he does it this way for some...this for others..etc
I find it odd how you both think all spiritual teachings in the bible are 100% translated correctly, on top of that you both think that the men that wrote those stories didn't put their OWN opinions in... ie.. drinking is wrong...wives should obey their husbands...if you don't do this you'll go to hell...
You both admit that humans are not perfect...I have news for you...the men that wrote those stories were not perfect either. How many preachers have you heard proclaim -God told me (fill in the blank)..with tears streaming down their eyes...either they were good actors..or they really believed whatever it was they thought God told them... THEN, they turn around a week or month later and say;
God showed me I was wrong... This is how it should be (fill in the blank). I have heard MANY preachers do this, and I have news...those preachers aren't any different then the men that wrote the stories of the Bible.
Your taking Scripture way to literal and then trying to prove it being false. Truth can be decerned within and outside of the Holy Scripture. The authority of Scripture comes from the fact that it has been given to us by the prophets, apostles and those who had daily contact with the apostles. This is not to say that the sky isn't blue because the Scripture does not say so.
This freewill necessarly brings seperation.
I wasn't using heaven as location but as our final destination within Christ. The angels too were given a choice to disobey God or not, but we will not sin in heaven. God does not tolerate sin in his presence and all sin causes death, but the gaurentees given to David were eternal life. Ezekiel 36:25 "I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all you idols I will cleanse you. 3 John 3:2 "Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure...no one who remains in him sins."
Malachi 3:3 "He will sit refining and purifying and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD." "Behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world". "Blessed are those who have washed themselves in the blood of the lamb". Paul also says that God will purify their hardship.
Yes, with the creation of freewill God has created evil, the allowance of us disobeying Him. However God does not do evil.
This freewill necessarly brings seperation.
In fullfillment of "The LORD called me from birth, from my mother's womb he gave my name. He made of me a sharp-edged sword and concealed me in the shadow of his arm. He made me a polished arrow in his quiver he hid me. You are my servant, he said to me, Israel through whom I show my glory." Jesus is also refering to the sword that David cut off the head of Golialith and the flashing sword that guards the path to the tree of life.
I think Paul says that we will judge even the fallen angels. However he's using it more to prove a point than to set aside dogma. We have to remember that the writings that we read are from human authors.
I wasn't using heaven as location but as our final destination within Christ. The angels too were given a choice to disobey God or not, but we will not sin in heaven. God does not tolerate sin in his presence and all sin causes death, but the gaurentees given to David were eternal life. Ezekiel 36:25 "I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all you idols I will cleanse you. 3 John 3:2 "Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure...no one who remains in him sins."
Well yes the writers have their own opinions and this is clearly meeting the needs of the community. However you are trying to say that they are false but drinking nor disobeying a husband is mentioned as reasons for going to hell.
However, you go out from that assumption when you quote the King James. You might find it interesting that "evil" is only one possible translation of the Hebrew word "rah". In the context, "evil" is an unfortunate translation, because some people (like you) seem to understand only one thing about evil (by the way, if you still have a problem, it might be helpful if you could define your concept of evil for us).
Heart, if you take off your night-vision goggles, you'll be able to read the rest of the Bible as well:
Job 2
Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
(1) Evil is intentions and intentional acts of intelligent agents, that violate the God-derived principles of love, fairness, or loyalty.
(2) acts and events are not made--they are done.
God made and created these things, agents, concepts that we can understand, not their 'acts' or 'events' - He 'performs' His own 'acts' (acts of creation, redemption, salvation, etc.), but His creations perform their own acts, which will be judged according to their responsibility.
God did not 'make evil' (the phrase is meaningless) - He causes events and circumstances that we could perceive as "evil" (called "physical" evil). If you are honest about it, you'll see that people do [moral] evil or good. The circumstances in which they are able to do either come from God.
Look at the translation in the Amplified Bible:
Isaiah 45
7I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
But if you want to choose a translation that fits your complaints, it's up to you. The only cure for that is Bible study.
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That pretty much says it all.....
lol lol and lol.
Nothing new there then.
Ah, at a time of suffering... the time when a person is most mentally fucked up.
Yeah, humans who thought the world was flat, there was a great big dome of water in the sky and the sun travelled around the earth. Still, you trust everything they say. What a plonker.
I can imagine the first unlucky bastard who saw a face in a cloud: "Look! theres a big guy sitting in the white thing! Fuck, we best kill some goats for him before he sends down more lightning."
okinrus,
Some things are to be taken literal and others figuratively- hmm, are there instructions on how to read the bible?? How is it you and Jenyar know which are to be literal and which aren't?
But that doesn't say you can't sin in heaven- I mean in 1 John 1:7, the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin- yet people have the ability to still sin on earth
That's not what I meant... I was trying to say that they could have very well put those verses in by not what they heard from jesus, god etc..but, that of their own opinions... The hell part is a scare tactic to keep others in line
Some things are to be taken literal and others figuratively- hmm, are there instructions on how to read the bible?? How is it you and Jenyar know which are to be literal and which aren't?
But that doesn't say you can't sin in heaven- I mean in 1 John 1:7, the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin- yet people have the ability to still sin on earth
That's not what I meant... I was trying to say that they could have very well put those verses in by not what they heard from jesus, god etc..but, that of their own opinions... The hell part is a scare tactic to keep others in line
Jenyar,
You might find it interesting that rah, used to describe evil is also the same word ,"rah" used in the following verses in Isaiah:
5:20, "Woe unto them that call evil (rah) good and good evil (rah)."
7:16, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil (rah) and choose
the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."
13:11, "And I will punish the world for their evil (rah)."
33:14-15, "Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that
walketh righteously... and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil (rah)."
41:23, "Yea, do good or do evil (rah) that we may be dismayed and behold it
together."
47:11, "Therefore shall evil (rah) come upon thee."
59:7, "Their feet run to evil (rah), and they make haste to shed innocent
blood."
============
We have been through the whole Noah story, and I find that God wiping out INNOCENT victims , goes against what he tells others not to do in the bible.
Isaiah:
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 ¶ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children
The above is just wrong- yet, some how it is justified in your eyes
This isn't anything but violent and wrong and is an illustration of what God commands not to do
You might find it interesting that rah, used to describe evil is also the same word ,"rah" used in the following verses in Isaiah:
5:20, "Woe unto them that call evil (rah) good and good evil (rah)."
7:16, "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil (rah) and choose
the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."
13:11, "And I will punish the world for their evil (rah)."
33:14-15, "Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that
walketh righteously... and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil (rah)."
41:23, "Yea, do good or do evil (rah) that we may be dismayed and behold it
together."
47:11, "Therefore shall evil (rah) come upon thee."
59:7, "Their feet run to evil (rah), and they make haste to shed innocent
blood."
============
We have been through the whole Noah story, and I find that God wiping out INNOCENT victims , goes against what he tells others not to do in the bible.
Isaiah:
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 ¶ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children
The above is just wrong- yet, some how it is justified in your eyes
This isn't anything but violent and wrong and is an illustration of what God commands not to do
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heart
Have a look at those verses you quoted. Especially the first one. It is evident that "evil" is a name we call something - it is a judgement call. The Bible says that this is God's judgement call - i.e. He shows us what is "good" and what is "evil" - since He created both (as we have learned).
Take for instance your view of the flood. That is something you call evil, which amounts to saying God is evil for "killing innocents". Yet who decides whether they were guilty or innocent? God saw "no good in them", they rejected the God who gave them life in the first place and committed murder and all kind of sin. Do you really have the knowledge or authority to decide they were innocent nontheless, and that God was mistaken in His assessment? As I have said before: people die. If anybody drowned innocently, you can be sure they will be found innocent by God. Death is inevitable; final judgement still lies ahead. Or do you think the dead will not be judged?
Do you have any idea what Isaiah was talking about, and who he was talking to, when he prophesied those things? You are quick to condemn his words and God's decisions, but you don't realize what it means. These words were spoken against Babylon - it is a template for the day of judgement, just like Sodom and Gomorrah. It is also a warning: "Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless." (Is.13:11)
Jews and Christians have also died for their faith. When Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans, these things happened. When Hitler killed the Jews, these things happened. Isaiah prophesied the inevitable - the message is that God does not wish these things to happen, but that they happen because we move out from under God's mercy when we reject Him! Sin must be punished. When we do not hold on to God, we are still caught in sin, and will share its destination. And it won't be heaven.
This addresses your question about sin in heaven. You can rest assured: there will be no sin in heaven. All sin is destined for hell. Isaiah promised a new heaven and a new earth That is why hell exists. Not "to punishment people who don't believe in God" as much as it is a jail for sin. God will establish a new kingdom: 3Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life [those who believed in Him]. (Rev.21)
Have a look at those verses you quoted. Especially the first one. It is evident that "evil" is a name we call something - it is a judgement call. The Bible says that this is God's judgement call - i.e. He shows us what is "good" and what is "evil" - since He created both (as we have learned).
Take for instance your view of the flood. That is something you call evil, which amounts to saying God is evil for "killing innocents". Yet who decides whether they were guilty or innocent? God saw "no good in them", they rejected the God who gave them life in the first place and committed murder and all kind of sin. Do you really have the knowledge or authority to decide they were innocent nontheless, and that God was mistaken in His assessment? As I have said before: people die. If anybody drowned innocently, you can be sure they will be found innocent by God. Death is inevitable; final judgement still lies ahead. Or do you think the dead will not be judged?
Do you have any idea what Isaiah was talking about, and who he was talking to, when he prophesied those things? You are quick to condemn his words and God's decisions, but you don't realize what it means. These words were spoken against Babylon - it is a template for the day of judgement, just like Sodom and Gomorrah. It is also a warning: "Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless." (Is.13:11)
Jews and Christians have also died for their faith. When Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans, these things happened. When Hitler killed the Jews, these things happened. Isaiah prophesied the inevitable - the message is that God does not wish these things to happen, but that they happen because we move out from under God's mercy when we reject Him! Sin must be punished. When we do not hold on to God, we are still caught in sin, and will share its destination. And it won't be heaven.
This addresses your question about sin in heaven. You can rest assured: there will be no sin in heaven. All sin is destined for hell. Isaiah promised a new heaven and a new earth That is why hell exists. Not "to punishment people who don't believe in God" as much as it is a jail for sin. God will establish a new kingdom: 3Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life [those who believed in Him]. (Rev.21)
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Jenyar,
Take for instance your view of the flood. That is something you call evil, which amounts to saying God is evil for "killing innocents". Yet who decides whether they were guilty or innocent? God saw "no good in them", they rejected the God who gave them life in the first place and committed murder and all kind of sin. Do you really have the knowledge or authority to decide they were innocent nontheless, and that God was mistaken in His assessment? As I have said before: people die. If anybody drowned innocently, you can be sure they will be found innocent by God. Death is inevitable; final judgement still lies ahead. Or do you think the dead will not be judged?
Can you HONESTLY say that every tiny little baby was NO GOOD????? Heck, what about the animals that died as well??? See, I know your answer.."that's for "god" to decide... He is the only one that can determine their innocence"...ETC... THINK Jenyar....think. Don't you find this a little crazy?? God deems little tiny babies to be "No good".
The bible paints god as some mean big bad dude...but as long as you kiss up and do what he wants...you'll be OK. But...you find nothing wrong with this- and I'm wondering why.
and you have no problem with this verse?
Is 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
Come on.. children dashed into PIECES??? That doesn't make you stop and think..why would God want to do such a thing? You think because "god" did it..then it's okay? If it's okay for him...and we are to be LIKE God...why isn't it okay for us? Everything within my heart tells me this is wrong.. I will never excuse that type of behavior...I don't care who it is.
Take for instance your view of the flood. That is something you call evil, which amounts to saying God is evil for "killing innocents". Yet who decides whether they were guilty or innocent? God saw "no good in them", they rejected the God who gave them life in the first place and committed murder and all kind of sin. Do you really have the knowledge or authority to decide they were innocent nontheless, and that God was mistaken in His assessment? As I have said before: people die. If anybody drowned innocently, you can be sure they will be found innocent by God. Death is inevitable; final judgement still lies ahead. Or do you think the dead will not be judged?
Can you HONESTLY say that every tiny little baby was NO GOOD????? Heck, what about the animals that died as well??? See, I know your answer.."that's for "god" to decide... He is the only one that can determine their innocence"...ETC... THINK Jenyar....think. Don't you find this a little crazy?? God deems little tiny babies to be "No good".
The bible paints god as some mean big bad dude...but as long as you kiss up and do what he wants...you'll be OK. But...you find nothing wrong with this- and I'm wondering why.
and you have no problem with this verse?
Is 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
Come on.. children dashed into PIECES??? That doesn't make you stop and think..why would God want to do such a thing? You think because "god" did it..then it's okay? If it's okay for him...and we are to be LIKE God...why isn't it okay for us? Everything within my heart tells me this is wrong.. I will never excuse that type of behavior...I don't care who it is.
As you will recall: both humans and animals were saved from the flood. What about them? If a baby can't be bad at such a young age, how can it be "good" either? It seems you are prejudiced. Why can't a baby be neither good nor bad, but just a victim of circumstance? Granted, it is the kind of prejudice we are supposed to have, but it is prejudice nontheless. Unfortunately, prejudice is something a judge should not have.
What I find wrong with this, is that these people evidently did not have their children in mind when they ignored Noah's warnings. Get that? God said: If A, then B. People should automatically have thought: hey, I might like doing this, but my children should not have to be punished for my actions, so I will stop - if not for my sake, then for theirs. But no, people persisted in A, and the ignored the consequences - including the consequences for their children.
As I have said, this is a prophecy. The prophet said what would happen, whether people liked to hear it or not. How do you think the people who heard this felt about it? If I told you now: "God sees your sins, and He knows your future. He told me: 'If you continue along this path, this is what will inevitably happen.' And now I report it to you." Will you think Hey, God would never do that - It's unfair for God to say that. Would you have preferred Isaiah to have sweetened it over a little? Maybe just said: "Bad things will happen"?
Or will you take responsibility for your actions and your (or maybe your kids') future - unforseen by you, but foreseen by God?
Good, and you shouldn't. Neither do I. Nobody deserves such an end. I only pray that I would get some warning if my actions are leading to such tragedy.
Jenyar,
According to the bible here is a verse of how "god" is suppose to view children
Ps. 127:3, 5 states ~
Children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is his reward. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them
The story about the flood was horrible. You can make all the excuses in the world, Jenyar..but killing INNOCENT babies is WRONG! If a person killed babies or children you would't think it was right- yet, you'll come up with lame excuses to justify the action of God being a baby killer.
You tell me what a baby could have possibly done that was so bad to warrant the story of god's killing rampage. I find it totally impossible for every person, outside of Noah and family, to be so wicked that they would be beyond saving. It is insane to accuse a child or baby of being wicked... Even if I believed this story, and I don't, do you not think God could have found another way to kill the others without destroying the children, babies, and animals? If Noah was so righteous and grand...He and his family could have raised them.
What I find wrong with this, is that these people evidently did not have their children in mind when they ignored Noah's warnings. Get that? God said: If A, then B. People should automatically have thought: hey, I might like doing this, but my children should not have to be punished for my actions, so I will stop - if not for my sake, then for theirs. But no, people persisted in A, and the ignored the consequences - including the consequences for their children.
Oh, I see. In your eyes it would be okay if a child of a criminal were to be locked up JUST because dear old dad committed a crime. How about a child of a murderer...would it be okay to put the child on death row because of what his parent had done? You evidently think it's okay because you justify "god" doing it left and right.
As I have said, this is a prophecy
I don't give a flying saucer if it is prophecy or not. You think it "lessens" what god threatened?
Bully: I want you to tell Johnny and Mary if they don't start acting like I want then they are going to face my wrath for sure. I'll cut their kids up in front of their eyes...I'm going to destroy Johnny and rape or umm ravish his wife.
That was hard to write...nevertheless, that's what your god said he'd do. Yet, you think it's okay..just blows my mind.
According to the bible here is a verse of how "god" is suppose to view children
Ps. 127:3, 5 states ~
Children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is his reward. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them
The story about the flood was horrible. You can make all the excuses in the world, Jenyar..but killing INNOCENT babies is WRONG! If a person killed babies or children you would't think it was right- yet, you'll come up with lame excuses to justify the action of God being a baby killer.
You tell me what a baby could have possibly done that was so bad to warrant the story of god's killing rampage. I find it totally impossible for every person, outside of Noah and family, to be so wicked that they would be beyond saving. It is insane to accuse a child or baby of being wicked... Even if I believed this story, and I don't, do you not think God could have found another way to kill the others without destroying the children, babies, and animals? If Noah was so righteous and grand...He and his family could have raised them.
What I find wrong with this, is that these people evidently did not have their children in mind when they ignored Noah's warnings. Get that? God said: If A, then B. People should automatically have thought: hey, I might like doing this, but my children should not have to be punished for my actions, so I will stop - if not for my sake, then for theirs. But no, people persisted in A, and the ignored the consequences - including the consequences for their children.
Oh, I see. In your eyes it would be okay if a child of a criminal were to be locked up JUST because dear old dad committed a crime. How about a child of a murderer...would it be okay to put the child on death row because of what his parent had done? You evidently think it's okay because you justify "god" doing it left and right.
As I have said, this is a prophecy
I don't give a flying saucer if it is prophecy or not. You think it "lessens" what god threatened?
Bully: I want you to tell Johnny and Mary if they don't start acting like I want then they are going to face my wrath for sure. I'll cut their kids up in front of their eyes...I'm going to destroy Johnny and rape or umm ravish his wife.
That was hard to write...nevertheless, that's what your god said he'd do. Yet, you think it's okay..just blows my mind.
I see I'm not making progress. Your concept of right and wrong rests on a very priviledged position - and therefore also a very limited one. If the parents were all put in "jail", who would raise their children? Would they have the ability to survive anyway? Would they start believing in God, or doing what is right, or side with their parents and continue their evil?
You judge on an individual, legal level. By our current justice system, those children were innocent simply because they were not guilty. But we don't have to preserve justice - we don't have to preserve the quality and meaning of life itself.
Would those children have been able to live meaningful and humane lives without parents?
God gives life, and it is in His power to take it away. But you don't know whether those children will be found ultimately innocent or guilty. I maintain: if those children were in fact innocent, they will be found innocent, and have eternal life. The mortal price they paid was because of the selfishness of their parents. Sin leads to death, and death is indiscriminate.
Originally posted by Jenyar
Would they have the ability to survive anyway? Would they start believing in God, or doing what is right, or side with their parents and continue their evil?
You just made an excelent pro-abortion argument.
Would those children have been able to live meaningful and humane lives without parents?
Why wouldn't they? Remeber, anything is possible with God's will
God gives life, and it is in His power to take it away.
Hmm, could also be a pro-abortion argument.
I maintain: if those children were in fact innocent, they will be found innocent, and have eternal life.
So why is killing 'immoral'? None of it really matters in the end.
The mortal price they paid was because of the selfishness of their parents. Sin leads to death, and death is indiscriminate.
Ah, so punish the children due to the parent's sin. And not just punish, but kill... uh huh.
Would they have the ability to survive anyway? Would they start believing in God, or doing what is right, or side with their parents and continue their evil?
You just made an excelent pro-abortion argument.
Would those children have been able to live meaningful and humane lives without parents?
Why wouldn't they? Remeber, anything is possible with God's will
God gives life, and it is in His power to take it away.
Hmm, could also be a pro-abortion argument.
I maintain: if those children were in fact innocent, they will be found innocent, and have eternal life.
So why is killing 'immoral'? None of it really matters in the end.
The mortal price they paid was because of the selfishness of their parents. Sin leads to death, and death is indiscriminate.
Ah, so punish the children due to the parent's sin. And not just punish, but kill... uh huh.