Victims

[wesmorris]

You're quite right. My apolagies. I took wes as being at his usual abstract level and missed the concrete right there before my eyes.

Actually yeah I was shooting for the abstract but the topic came up in my mind through the HBO documentary I mentioned. I thought for a moment I saw through the fog, then... well not so much maybe. I'll be back later perhaps with something more substantial.

 

[whitewolf]

Yeah, except for the fact that the U.S. gives Israel $7,000,000 every single day, almost all of which directly goes to its army. Forgot about that, dincha?

I think it's unfair that they sell us shitty weapons. It was one of Saddam's biggest mistakes, buying crappy Russian weapons, rather than making a nuclear device.

You know why Saudi Arabia won't donate much to Palestinians and would rather build state-of-the-art hotels and islands for Americans, Russians, Brits, and the like? Because Palestinians are a lost bunch of lunatics.

 

[S.A.M.]

You know why Saudi Arabia won't donate much to Palestinians and would rather build state-of-the-art hotels and islands for Americans, Russians, Brits, and the like? Because Palestinians are a lost bunch of lunatics.

Actually the Saudis prefer to fund Wahabbism and turn out terrorists some of which ram into towers in the US. The US also supports the Saudis with arms and funds like Israel. So who is the lunatic?

 

[whitewolf]

Not only that but the truth of what happened to the Palestinians has yet to see the light of day.

http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm



What people don't know cannot hurt the Israelis. They learned this lesson from the excellent recordkeeping of the Germans.

What do you mean the world doesn't know? The evidence was quite obvious. But for some reason you think that's unfair. You need to recall that this happened when the entire Arab world threatened to drive Israelis into the sea. What should Israel have done with a large group of people who declared themselves as enemy? Israel fits perfectly the description of someone who was about to get victimised but fought back and won. Bravo to Israel.

 

[whitewolf]

Actually the Saudis prefer to fund Wahabbism and turn out terrorists some of which ram into towers in the US. The US also supports the Saudis with arms and funds like Israel. So who is the lunatic?

It's okay, that gives us a chance to fight terrorism.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

You know why Saudi Arabia won't donate much to Palestinians and would rather build state-of-the-art hotels and islands for Americans, Russians, Brits, and the like? Because Palestinians are a lost bunch of lunatics.

Living in the Melting Pot of America I've met several Palestinians. They were as urbane and gracious as anyone.

Not only that but the truth of what happened to the Palestinians has yet to see the light of day.

I don't think this is as true today as it might have been before 9/11. You can't pick up a newspaper without encountering a feature article on the history of the Middle East all the way back to Gilgamesh. We're familiar with the circumstances of the founding of the modern state of Israel, as well as the irony that the Palestinians are arguably more closely related to the Jews genetically than to the Arabs. (They may well be the descendants of the faction of the Canaanite people who simply chose not to adopt Judaism.)

Americans are loth to hold anyone responsible for the sins of the people who founded the country he lives in. (Duh! Should we give Arizona back to Mexico or to the Navajo?) Still, a growing number of Americans are fed up with the basically uncivilized behavior in Israel/Palestine and since Israel has all the power we figure it's up to them to fix it. Our unholy alliance with Israel is a relic of the Cold War and it's time to treat them like any other "rogue state."

None of this excuses the reciprocally uncivilized behavior of the Palestinians, but it at least makes it possible to understand.

 

[pjdude1219]

Living in the Melting Pot of America I've met several Palestinians. They were as urbane and gracious as anyone.I don't think this is as true today as it might have been before 9/11. You can't pick up a newspaper without encountering a feature article on the history of the Middle East all the way back to Gilgamesh. We're familiar with the circumstances of the founding of the modern state of Israel, as well as the irony that the Palestinians are arguably more closely related to the Jews genetically than to the Arabs. (They may well be the descendants of the faction of the Canaanite people who simply chose not to adopt Judaism.)

Americans are loth to hold anyone responsible for the sins of the people who founded the country he lives in. (Duh! Should we give Arizona back to Mexico or to the Navajo?) Still, a growing number of Americans are fed up with the basically uncivilized behavior in Israel/Palestine and since Israel has all the power we figure it's up to them to fix it. Our unholy alliance with Israel is a relic of the Cold War and it's time to treat them like any other "rogue state."

None of this excuses the reciprocally uncivilized behavior of the Palestinians, but it at least makes it possible to understand.

congrats your the first person here to manage to get on my list of people intelligent, logical, and emotionally calm enough to debate the israeli/palestian conflict

 

[S.A.M.]

What do you mean the world doesn't know? The evidence was quite obvious. But for some reason you think that's unfair. You need to recall that this happened when the entire Arab world threatened to drive Israelis into the sea. What should Israel have done with a large group of people who declared themselves as enemy? Israel fits perfectly the description of someone who was about to get victimised but fought back and won. Bravo to Israel.

Why do the Arabs get the responsibilty of taking the blowback from the European holocaust? If you liked the Jews so much why did they need to run away to the Middle East? "About to get victmised"?? You think the 6 million killed by antisemitic Europeans don't count?

 

[madanthonywayne]

Pardon I just finished watching an HBO documentary "To Die in Jerusalem".

If you are victimized by an oppressor and fight back, are you still a victim?

I think it depends on how you fight back. If you fight back by commiting atrocities worse than your "oppressor", you've completely lost the moral high ground and retroactively justified your own oppression. But if you fight back honorably, you retain the moral high ground.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think it depends on how you fight back. If you fight back by commiting atrocities worse than your "oppressor", you've completely lost the moral high ground and retroactively justified your own oppression. But if you fight back honorably, you retain the moral high ground.

Does fighting honorably mean sitting at a distance and pressing buttons against people who cannot retaliate?

 

[whitewolf]

Why do the Arabs get the responsibilty of taking the blowback from the European holocaust? If you liked the Jews so much why did they need to run away to the Middle East? "About to get victmised"?? You think the 6 million killed by antisemitic Europeans don't count?

...And here, I think you defeated yourself. Wonderful. That's what we like to see among Arabs.

Sincerely,
Ethnic Jew.

 

[whitewolf]

Does fighting honorably mean sitting at a distance and pressing buttons against people who cannot retaliate?

Cannot retaliate? Yea, the Palestinian population would seem totally unable to obtain any weapons, but miraculously those weapons appear there. Bombs and stuff. How the heck?.... Women, children, old people -- all get bombs and sneak into Jewish neighborhoods. That sort of thing makes one believe in god.

 

[S.A.M.]

...And here, I think you defeated yourself. Wonderful. That's what we like to see among Arabs.

Sincerely,
Ethnic Jew.

Ah a zionist racist. Now I see where all the anti-Muslim sentiment comes from.

And yeah, about to be victimised after 6 million dead. Sick.

 

[pjdude1219]

I think it depends on how you fight back. If you fight back by commiting atrocities worse than your "oppressor", you've completely lost the moral high ground and retroactively justified your own oppression. But if you fight back honorably, you retain the moral high ground.

with the tech gap that exists most of the ways for the lower tech group to fight aren't exactly moral or honorable nor can they afford to be

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Why do the Arabs get the responsibilty of taking the blowback from the European holocaust? If you liked the Jews so much why did they need to run away to the Middle East?

Thank you. I'm old enough to have talked with people who fled the Holocaust. Most of them wanted nothing so much as to go back to their homes in Europe, even if they were nothing but craters, because they thought of themselves first as Europeans, not Jews.

I'm under the impression that the Brits were generally civil to their Jews (after all Disraeli was Prime Minister 125 years ago), and a few other peoples like the Norwegians were practically heroic during the Nazi occupation. But for the most part one gets the impression that most Europeans were willing to do anything to make up for a thousand years of antisemitism culminating in the Holocaust... anything except take them back.

The only country with a large Jewish population, where in the worst of times they were treated better than they had been under the Old World benchmark of the Ottomans, and where the biggest danger to the existence of its Jewish community has always been casual assimilation, is mine. We have as many Jews as Israel, and from personal observation I'd say the flow of Israelis who give up on their country in disgust and come here is equal to the flow in the other direction.

How many disenchanted Israelis have emigrated to Austria or France?

 

[S.A.M.]

We have as many Jews as Israel, and from personal observation I'd say the flow of Israelis who give up on their country in disgust and come here is equal to the flow in the other direction.

I met this cool lady in Florida who is a Jew of Palestinian origin and she showed me old pictures of Palestine.

 

[Kadark]

You know why Saudi Arabia won't donate much to Palestinians and would rather build state-of-the-art hotels and islands for Americans, Russians, Brits, and the like? Because Palestinians are a lost bunch of lunatics.

"Lunatics"? You realize that dehumanization of any group of people is one of the eight stages to systematic genocide, right?

 

[wesmorris]

Thank you. I'm old enough to have talked with people who fled the Holocaust. Most of them wanted nothing so much as to go back to their homes in Europe, even if they were nothing but craters, because they thought of themselves first as Europeans, not Jews.

I'm under the impression that the Brits were generally civil to their Jews (after all Disraeli was Prime Minister 125 years ago), and a few other peoples like the Norwegians were practically heroic during the Nazi occupation. But for the most part one gets the impression that most Europeans were willing to do anything to make up for a thousand years of antisemitism culminating in the Holocaust... anything except take them back.

The only country with a large Jewish population, where in the worst of times they were treated better than they had been under the Old World benchmark of the Ottomans, and where the biggest danger to the existence of its Jewish community has always been casual assimilation, is mine. We have as many Jews as Israel, and from personal observation I'd say the flow of Israelis who give up on their country in disgust and come here is equal to the flow in the other direction.

How many disenchanted Israelis have emigrated to Austria or France?

Hmm. I wonder if part of the reasoning to export them might have been that having them stay would lead to more war, due to all the emotional baggage of recent events of the time and such.

Regardless, I think the middle-east thing is a load. If the zionist and palastinians (both the same group really) can't separate church and state they're doomed to blow the crap out of each other until they change thier minds or cease to exist.

I think the key difference between a deen and a religion is that for a deen it's unthinkable for church and state to be a separate entities. What's the difference anyway? There is only the will of 'god' and perhaps 'the word' of some sort. I would say zionists form a jewish deen, and palestinians form an islamic deen. In either group some participate in the religion of the same name.

All borders in the west bank and israel should be erased, all people who live there form a new country called 'holyana' or 'the holy land' or something. The selfish pricks want it all and won't settle for sharing it all. It's bullshit and should be stopped but won't be because the deens conflict. Cull them to religions and you'd have something potentially workable.

Pardon the sidebar, but the topic came up.

Back on topic:

I suppose I think it really bad for mental health to identify with the label "victim" (nodding to greenburg), even though one's circumstance may warrant the correct application of the term.

I suppose whoever was correct though, I think it was sowhatifitsdark. One can be many things. I think as long as one mostly identifies with things other than being a victim - I can respect that. I think excessive self-pity tends to snowball into a spiraling vortex of badness. Nobody likes a spiraling vortex of badness.

 

[wesmorris]

Hmm, just on a 'group theory' kind of level, since a deen is absolute, could it be said that it cannot co-exist with religions without conflict? I guess it depends fully on the deen, maybe. Maybe not. I guess we'd have to ask though, "for any absolute social system or 'deen' can it have doctrine that values itself without demanding supremecy over all that is?" Would a policy contradict the notion of deen if it did not eventually promise this supremecy or in fact claim it as part of its authoritative validation?

 

[wesmorris]

If you believe it and there's nothing to contradict you, you believe it eh? If you believe it and you're emotionally or psychologically invested in it and something contradicts it, the mind reacts to stave the contradiction - so you still believe it unless you apply the will to accept the contradiction (how much effort or its impact on the psyche depends on the person and scenario).

A deen (and lots of other stuff with no directly demonstrable physical manifestations) believed almost can't be contradicted.