Vaccine related autism study?

[Magical Realist]

Any proof that the two are related? Or is this just another wild guess?

If she had been injured by being in a car crash shortly after she got vaccinated, you would now be claiming that vaccines caused car crashes.

"In a court-submitted opinion, neurologist Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, Director of Medical Research at the Kennedy Krieger Institute, stated that he had “personally witnessed [Hannah’s] developmental regression” following “vaccine-induced fever and immune stimulation.”

Zimmerman concluded that Hannah was vulnerable to vaccine injury because she had a metabolic disorder called mitochondrial dysfunction. While vaccines are safe for most children, in Hannah, they triggered a brain injury, according to Zimmerman.


Whether vaccines “caused” or “triggered” Hannah’s autism, the result was the same: but for her vaccinations, Zimmerman said, “Hannah may have led a normal full productive life.” Instead, she suffers “significant lifelong disability.”

A second underlying condition that was aggravated by vaccines, resulting in mental retardation and autism, is tuberous sclerosis or “TS,” according to a 1986 vaccine court case. According to the National Institutes of Health, TS affects 1 in every 6,000 newborns.

Not all children who developed autism as a result of vaccine injuries, as determined by vaccine court, had identifiable pre-existing conditions. But I asked the CDC’s DeStefano whether it was worth trying to figure out what underlying conditions put kids at risk so they can be tested in advance and, if vulnerable, spared.

“That’s very difficult to do,” DeStefano told me. He said the CDC’s priorities are gaining a better understanding of the pathogenesis, genetics and biology of autism. “And then, I think… it’d be more feasible to try to establish if vaccines in an individual case, say a person with a certain set of genes…if we ever get to that point, then that kind of research might be fruitful.”

See CDC’s recommended vaccination schedule

Not worthy of study?

But it turns out the CDC has ruled out that sort of research. A CDC spokesman told me that the agency is not “currently investigating the relation between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders (ASD). Further, CDC does not have any planned research addressing vaccines and autism.”

As of May, 2010 the government had compensated 1,296 vaccine brain damage(encephalopathy/encephalitis and seizure cases) but was not tracking how many of the brain-injured children specifically ended up with autism.




“CDC believes that this topic has been thoroughly studied and no causal links have been found,” said the spokesman in an email.

“Current CDC ASD related research focuses on determining how many people have ASD and understanding risk factors and causes for ASD,” said the CDC.


Seven years after Hannah’s case settled, twenty-eight years after the TS case, it’s impossible to know how many similar children, if any, are out there. And the government isn’t trying to find out."

 

[Daecon]

Hannah recieved five vaccines in one day. Saying vaccines are bad because one girl's parents decided to overdose her is like saying drinking water is bad because there have been cases of water intoxication.

Sure, she "may" have developed autism from her vaccines, but she got FIVE of them in the same day. Did her parents forget how vaccines work?

 

[Magical Realist]

Hannah recieved five vaccines in one day. Saying vaccines are bad because one girl's parents decided to overdose her is like saying drinking water is bad because there have been cases of water intoxication.

Sure, she "may" have developed autism from her vaccines, but she got FIVE of them in the same day. Did her parents forget how vaccines work?

Are you saying 5 vaccines in one day is too much? Why would THAT be?

 

[Daecon]

Overloading the body with nine different types of pathogen without any time to adapt and produce antibodies to each in turn, especially in an infant, was reckless and irresponable.

 

[Magical Realist]

Overloading the body with nine different types of pathogen without any time to adapt and produce antibodies to each in turn, especially in an infant, was reckless and irresponable.

Here's the vaccine schedule from the CDC. Note as many as 5 and 6 are recommended in the same month. The 9 she got are recommended over like 3 months. Are doctors aware of the dangers of having these all in one dose?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/easy-to-read/child.html

 

[Bells]

Here's the vaccine schedule from the CDC. Note as many as 5 and 6 are recommended in the same month. Are doctors aware of the dangers of having these all in one dose?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/easy-to-read/child.html

She had an underlying condition.

the Poling's neurologist Andrew Zimmerman wrote in a letter to the Poling's attorney's that there was a pre-existing mitochondrial dysfunction. Dr. Zimmerman wrote, "The cause for regressive encephalopathy in Hannah at age 19 months was underlying mitochondrial dysfunction, exacerbated by vaccine-induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic energy reserves."​

Her own father, a neurologist, advised that there was no definitive answer that it was the vaccination that caused her autism but that more research was necessary to ensure children like his daughter, Hannah, would be able to be vaccinated.

Dr Poling also had this to say for those who try to use his daughter's case to further their own anti-vaccination and autism causes:

Despite the high frequency of mitochondrial dysfunction in autistic children,2 studies have not established primary or secondary roles. To explore this question, we need an immunization database for children with metabolic disorders to establish safety guidelines3 and improve vaccine safety for minority subgroups of children.

I agree with the statement of Bernadine Healy, former director of the National Institutes of Health, who said, “I don't think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you're afraid of what it might show. . . . If you know that susceptible group, you can save those children. If you turn your back on the notion there is a susceptible group . . . what can I say?”4 Also commendable is the new 5-year research plan of the National Vaccine Advisory Committee, which will entail the study of minority subpopulations, including patients with mitochondrial disorders.5

A strong, safe vaccination program is a cornerstone of public health. Misrepresenting Hannah Poling v. HHS to the medical profession does not improve confidence in the immunization program or advance science toward an understanding of how and why regressive encephalopathy with autistic features follows vaccination in susceptible children.​

In other words, it is likely that children like Hannah may very well fall into the group of people who should not be vaccinated because of her underlying mitochondrial dysfunction. Which means that she would have otherwise been protected by herd immunity. Her father is correct, children with such disorders need to be tracked to improve vaccine safety for that group of children.

 

[Magical Realist]

"The most common complication is pneumonia, an infection of the lungs. Measles does not cause severe pneumonia itself, but it ties up the immune system and inflames the lungs so that bacteria can easily invade and "super-infect" the lungs."====http://bodyandhealth.canada.com/cha...nnel_id=1020&disease_id=179&relation_id=70907

 

[Daecon]

So does this mean we've gone from "vaccines cause autism" to "vaccines cause pneumonia"?

 

[Magical Realist]

So does this mean we've gone from "vaccines cause autism" to "vaccines cause pneumonia"?

Nope. Pneumonia causes pneumonia. Just like measles causes measles.

 

[Bells]

Nope. Pneumonia causes pneumonia. Just like measles causes measles.

Wow..

The level of dishonesty and misrepresentation that you are pushing in this thread knows no bounds.

 

[Daecon]

Nope. Pneumonia causes pneumonia. Just like measles causes measles.

That's odd. It sounded like you were claiming that the measles vaccine causes pneumonia.

"The most common complication is pneumonia, an infection of the lungs. Measles does not cause severe pneumonia itself, but it ties up the immune system and inflames the lungs so that bacteria can easily invade and "super-infect" the lungs."====http://bodyandhealth.canada.com/cha...nnel_id=1020&disease_id=179&relation_id=70907

I'm not sure what that has to do with vaccines causing autism, though. Vaccines don't cause autism, by the way.

 

[Kittamaru]

Like I said, nobody in the U.S. has died of measles since 2004. So no, this is not a deadly outbreak threatening civilization. In a month or so all those people who got the measles will be naturally immunized from it. They will stay at home, drink plenty of fluids, and get well again. Nobody will die and the world will move on as it always has. Like when we had our "deadly" ebola outbreak of like 3 people a few months ago. lol! People nowadays think any appearance of a disease is a deadly epidemic. It isn't.

Your tiny worldview is, quite simply, terrifying... there is far more to the world than just the United States...

If you wanna take the risk of it causing autism in your kid.

Again, you have yet to provide a single substantiated and backed study that actually shows a cause/effect relationship between the MMR vaccination (or ANY modern vaccination) and Autism...

You have 12 hours to retract or support this statement, or you will be infracted, again, for intellectual dishonesty. That gives you until 8pm EST.

So did Hannah Polling's parents:

"Hannah Poling was considered normal, happy and precocious until 19 months of age when she was vaccinated against nine diseases in one doctor’s visit: measles, mumps, rubella, polio, varicella, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, and Haemophilus influenzae. Afterward, she developed high fevers, had screaming fits, stopped eating, didn’t respond when spoken to and began showing signs of autism.

As vaccination has grown into a multi-billion dollar industry, children have gone from being inoculated against four diseases in 1953 to today’s recommended schedule of shots for 16 diseases requiring 49 doses by age 6. The government and pharmaceutical industry have said evidence shows babies’ systems can easily handle the immune boost.

In 2002, Hannah’s parents—her father a neurologist, her mother a nurse and attorney—filed a claim in a specially-created federal vaccine court in which the U.S. Department of Justice defends vaccine interests. Hannah was to serve as a test case to help decide the outcome of thousands of vaccine-autism claims.

The case was strong. In 2007, contemplating Hannah would win her claim, sources say the vaccine court analyzed what the broader financial impact might be. It found that a flood of similar vaccine-autism claims would quickly deplete the government’s vaccine injury compensation fund, which is supported by a small fee patients pay on each dose of vaccine.

But instead of allowing Hannah’s case to publicly serve as a precedent for other possible victims, the government took another course: it quietly settled the case and sealed the results. Other families with autistic children were never to know. Hannah’s family petitioned the court to be allowed to reveal the findings but the government fought to keep the case sealed—and prevailed."====http://sharylattkisson.com/cdc-possibility-that-vaccines-rarely-trigger-autism/

So your "evidence" for this comes from an anti-vaccination website (http://www.vaclib.org/) and an "investigative reporter"named Sharyl Attkisson, who has ZERO medical education or training...

I'm sorry, that doesn't cut the mustard. What you are doing is the equivalent of me, a CNIT major, trying to tell my allergist I don't need any antihistamines for my allergies because I happened to look at a website that said Royal Bee Jelly could cure them for me! It's ridiculous at the best, absolute dishonesty at the worst.

Magical Realist, you have shown that this isn't about "truth" for you - it isn't about discovery or the pursuit of knowledge. This is some sort of sick game to you, and it's abhorrent. You ignore the simple facts, even when they are presented to you on a silver platter, and instead fling wild accusations, made-up statistics, imaginary correlations, and conspiracy nutcase websites around as though they were scientific fact.

This flies in the face of EVERYTHING that SciForums is supposed to be.

 

[Kristoffer]

Vax on, vax off...

Seriously, MR, you were clearly quote-mining and disregarding everything that doesn't side with your views.

 

[Magical Realist]

Vax on, vax off...

Seriously, MR, you were clearly quote-mining and disregarding everything that doesn't side with your views.

I acknowledged that there are papers showing no connection between vaccines and autism. There are 6 that the CDC continuously relies on. But that is not "no evidence of a connection." It is evidence conflicting with other evidence. More research is obviously needed to resolve these conflicts. That's what I was advocating. If that's life-endangering or heretical, I don't care. To me it's basic science, and something we owe to the parents of kids who came down with autistic symptoms when they were vaccinated with something like 9 vaccines in one dose!

 

[Kittamaru]

You claim these 40 papers were retracted, yet continue to refuse to back up that claim. Of the over 40 papers quoted, which were retracted?

And as I already said, thimerasol has NOT been removed from ALL vaccines, and continue to be used widely in other countries outside the U.S. So again, it is YOU who is making the false claim.

So you are arguing about thimerasol in vaccines (the vaccines that still have it in the US have trace amounts that have been deemed safe by people with far more medical experience than you)...
You argue about deaths in the united states from Measles...
But when it comes to thimerasol in vaccines, you then jump to outside the US...

You pick and choose your arguments SPECIFICALLY to avoid the truth. You are a shining example of intellectual dishonesty at its best... suppressed evidence, fallacy of incomplete evidence, argument by selective observation, argument by half-truth, card stacking, fallacy of exclusion, ignoring the counter evidence, one-sided assessment, slanting, one-sidedness, call it what you will; at the end of the day, it is a logical fallacy, and your dependence upon it simply magnifies your dishonesty.

As evidence (this is just one of many) you posted this study to support your position:

You want more scientific papers? Ok then, here they come.

Serological association of measles virus and human herpesvirus-6 with brain autoantibodies in autism.
Singh VK1, Lin SX, Yang VC.
Author information

(snipped due to character limit)

Which Bells tore apart quite succinctly:

You really need to stop getting your sources from the anti-vaccination brigade and their websites. You are literally quote mining - much like evolution denial people quote mine and link to spurious studies.

For example, this so called study by Singh.. I read up on Singh. He even has a wiki page..

In 1998, Singh, while affiliated with the University of Michigan, coauthored a paper in Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology reporting the presence of antibodies to myelin basic protein in autistic children and arguing that a virally triggered autoimmune response might cause autism.[6] In 2002, Singh et al. published a paper in the Journal of Biomedical Science in which it was reported that 75 of 125 autistic children had an abnormal measles antibody, whereas none of the non-autistic children did. In addition, the study concluded that "...an inappropriate antibody response to MMR, specifically the measles component thereof, might be related to pathogenesis of autism."[7] The results were reported on by the Daily Mail,[8] as well as the Daily Telegraph, which noted that the study did not prove that the MMR vaccine caused autism; rather, "autism may be responsible for the unusual response to the MMR antibodies."[9]

Singh's findings on autism have been criticized by other scientists as flawed, unreproducible, or dubious. Mary Ramsay of the Health Protection Agency wrote that the evidence for the "specific" MMR-type antibody Singh claims to have detected was "not credible."[10]Paul Offit wrote in Autism's False Prophets that "...a closer look at Singh's science revealed two critical flaws: children with autism didn't have evidence of nerve cell damage, and, according to measles experts, the test that Singh had used to detect measles antibodies didn't actually detect them."[11] A 2006 review of literature on vaccines and autism found that Singh's results "have been called into question due to issues of cross-contamination, as well as the use of unsubstantiated and un-validated biochemical techniques", citing a report by the World Health Organization,[12] and a number of other studies have failed to find a difference in immune response to the measles virus between autistic and neurotypical children.[13][14][15][16] Peter Lachmann, the president of theAcademy of Medical Sciences, United Kingdom, stated: "Singh's work in these papers is not particularly reproducible or good... There are many diseases which show raised antibodies to measles, for example chronic active hepatitis or multiple sclerosis, yet there is nothing to associate these with MMR. There is no persuasive evidence that autism is caused by autoimmunity."[17]​

​

Part 2


Ermm.. The study does not actually demonstrate that MMR causes autism.

So you are including this because of...?

Argument ad populum: everybody disagrees, so you must be wrong.

You are confusing Argumentum ad populum with Inductive Logic - I am not using the fact that everyone else is disagreeing with you as proof that you are wrong, but rather as the basis that you should reconsider your evidence.

I can quote whatever argument that supports my position. If that argument is from a anti-vaccination author or website, the logic of the argument is not effected in the least. Case in point, total number of deaths from measles. The article was simple math based on CDC estimates. Yet it was totally dismissed and mock because, well, because, that's anit-vaxxer math, right? And God knows we can't trust that.

Except your statement here is wrong - yes, you can quote whatever argument you want, but quoting JUST that which supports your position is known as suppressed evidence.
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/66-cherry-picking

Logical Form:

Evidence A and evidence B is available.
Evidence A supports the claim of person 1.
Evidence B supports the counter claim of person 2.
Therefore, person 1 presents only evidence A.

This thread was responded to by James last night and moved to Sci Govt. If it was a violation of the rules he would have cesspooled it. Instead, we are communicating via PM's about it and working toward resolving its issues. I posted this in an open thread simply because I wanted all members to be aware of your behavior and avoid being banned themselves in the future. That's my only motive. To help other members and to have this injustice addressed.

Interesting how you claim your motive is to "help people avoid being banned by me in the future"... yet the only one at risk of being banned is you, because you continually break the rules. Your attempt to appear altruistic is noted; an abject failure, but noted.

As for James allowing this thread to persist, that is his prerogative - he is an administrator, and as such I defer to his judgement.

NOTE - I apologize for truncating the quotes - damnable character limit...

 

[Magical Realist]

Yet here you are, feeling as though you are somehow privileged to be "above the rules" - any reason I shouldn't issue you the infraction that defecating upon the rules of this forum would entail?

Cite the rule. It must be posted somewhere right? And your vile depiction of me is noted. To other members, this is the typical obscene treatment I am subjected to.

 

[Magical Realist]

Also - for all the effort you have put into being the victim, you could have EASILY provided the requested citations/evidence... instead, you have pandered and hem-haw'ed over four hours away...

Trying to ban me again I see. So what part of "I have posted over 40 papers showing a link between vaccines and autism" don't you get? I posted the list twice, and I posted 8 papers from this list in my thread. You even admitted the Thimerasol studies were good evidence. So your accusation is false. I HAVE provided evidence for the vaccine/autism link, and I don't need to post it again. Your claim that they have been retracted requires proof, which you have failed to provide. So no, I am not your dog jumping thru your hoop again. The evidence is already posted, and your claim is false.

You paint yourself to be some kind of nutjob conspiracy theorist

Another flaming insult. You just can't help yourself can you?

in favor of the rants of those who have either been discredited or have no medical education nor experience to speak of in order to try and make the claim that vaccinations are bad...

Another lie. All the papers I quoted are from real doctors and scientists, not people without education or experience.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Graph debunked.
Here

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...us-intellectual-dishonesty-at-its-most-naked/

 

[Kittamaru]

Trying to ban me again I see. So what part of "I have posted over 40 papers showing a link between vaccines and autism" don't you get? I posted the list twice, and I posted 8 papers from this list in my thread. You even admitted the Thimerasol studies were good evidence. So your accusation is false. I HAVE provided evidence for the vaccine/autism link, and I don't need to post it again. Your claim that they have been retracted requires proof, which you have failed to provide. So no, I am not your dog jumping thru your hoop again. The evidence is already posted, and your claim is false.

You have "provided the evidence" much the same as you did for those made up statistics, hm? Like:

So much for your scare tactic. Can't blame deaths on antivaxxers if the deaths aren't happening. And once again, for the reading impaired, your risk of dying from measles is 1 in a few 1000. That's much lower than dying from an accident, or murder, or a car crash. Although Billvon reminds us it's more than dying from terrorists. lol!

Also, where is your supporting evidence for:

Babies too young to be vaccinated are protected by their vaccinated mother's antibodies. But even that fails sometimes. So your pathetic baby-killing accusation is exposed. Besides, the unvaccinated at Disneyland are believed to have been foreigners. NOT antivaxxers. I've already stated this. You really should read the whole thread.

These are just a small sampling of your unsubstantiated claims...

Another flaming insult. You just can't help yourself can you?

Interesting how your guilty conscience works... I was merely providing an example; you are the one who took it to apply to yourself *shrug*

 

[origin]

I HAVE provided evidence for the vaccine/autism link,

Oh great, now you are going to post that dangerous and completely discredited assertion here. Unbelievable!