Universal Health Care

[S.A.M.]

So the best doctors are the one who want the most money?

MSF probably consists of idiots then

 

[madanthonywayne]

Is your government so desperate that it has to take money from you at the point of a gun ? I've heard of the Texas Rangers but not the Taxes Rangers.

All taxes are collected via the implicit threat of violence and incarceration should you fail to pay. Don't forget that Al Capone (famous US gangster) went to jail for non payment of taxes!

Your definition of care is very narrow.As you appear to be a churchgoer, ask for an explanation of " Am I my brothers keeper ?", " Love thy neighbour as thyself "and " The Parable of the Good Samaritan"

Jesus was speaking of personal morality and charity, not government "entitlements". There is nothing charitable about paying taxes.

By turfing the care of the poor to the government, people feel relieved of the need to help themselves. "It's not my responsibility, I already paid my taxes."

Entitlement programs turn charity into a "right". It leaves its recipients dependent upon it, while creating a feeling of contempt among the rest of the population for the leeches sucking at the government tit.

I think your message means no more than you are unwilling to pay a few more dollars in tax every year.

Right. A few dollars. Nationalized healthcare would cost untold billions of dollars and, no doubt, push our government into bankrupsy that much sooner. THERE SHOULD BE NO NEW ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS UNTIL THE NATIONAL DEFICIT AND THE NATIONAL DEBT ARE BOTH ELIMINATED!

You may recognize this:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The government is already in everything. I'm not advocating putting the government in control of everything, I'm advocating forcing the government to do the job we gave it and provide for the general welfare of it's people.

You've mistaken the word "promote" for the word "provide". The government is not to provide anything, it's supposed to promote it. I assure you, our founding fathers would roll over in their graves at the idea of nationalized healthcare.

You really think that the the overall health and welfare of the nations people should be subject to the same market fluctuations as the price of gas or a gallon of milk?

Well, what about food? Surely you can't maintain good health without food! Should we allow the evil corporations to charge whatever they want for food! People could starve! Or what about clothing. How can you be healthy when you're freezing to death because the evil corporations have raised the price of clothing too high? The government should provide food, clothing, and shelter for everyone. And education. And..........

You really think, like sandy, that those who can take maximum advantage of the corporate system are more deserving of basic health care and services, while those that can't or don't (like millions of struggling single-income families who work as hard as you do except they haul your trash or paint your house) are losers?
I'll bet you don't.

Is everyone, regardless of ability to pay, deserving of basic health care? Sure. Am I willing to throw us all into a collectivist gulag to achieve that goal? No. We have medicaid, various charities, I even provide free eyecare to the poor myself. The poor can be taken care of with resorting to a nationalization of healthcare.

 

[Asguard]

doctors without boarders (which i think is the same organisation) is a brillant organisation. Wonder if they use paramedics, if they do i would love to do some work for them once im qualifide

 

[superstring01]

So the best doctors are the one who want the most money?

MSF probably consists of idiots then

Sam: read what you just wrote. You are extrapolating again and doing a pretty piss-poor job of it. It's so tiresome combating you utter ignorant statements.

MSF is a phenomenal organization that consists of great doctors, but MSF doesn't rank their doctors. Moreover, MSF doesn't really "pick and chose" the best-- they take what they can get. It's a volunteer organization that is dedicated to giving as much medicine to as many people as possible.

Again, the best doctors (on average: though there will always be altruistic individuals and/or those who seek other motives) will generally gravitate towards the greatest benefits.

Why do you think that so many nations (UK, Canada & New Zealand, come to mind) keep hiking doctor salaries in order to get them back into the country.

A personal experience: I've been in and out of the hospital a lot in the past two years. Half of my doctors are overwhelmingly from India, China, the UK and the M.E. Why do they all gravitate here? Simple: If you're going to provide a service that you love to provide, why not make $250,000 to a million a year?

~String

 

[madanthonywayne]

So the best doctors are the one who want the most money?

MSF probably consists of idiots then

Sam, there are always a few saints around. But they are few and far between. Not to mention that a lot of those guys probably have regular jobs where they make big bucks. I may even go on a mission like that myself one of these days.

Tell me why the royal family of Saudi Arabia and Jordan (remember: King Hussein went to the Mayo Clinic for his cancer treatment, do you think a man with access to billions of dollars would have gone to "second best"?), the crown princess of Sweden (she came for Anorexia treatment) and the Sultan of Brunei all have come to the USA for treatment?
~String

String, my dad just got back from the Mayo clinic. He's a retired steelworker, currently working as a school bus driver. Yet he can afford to go to the same doctor as the Sultan of Brunei.

 

[superluminal]

Is everyone, regardless of ability to pay, deserving of basic health care? Sure. Am I willing to throw us all into a collectivist gulag to achieve that goal? No. We have medicaid, various charities, I even provide free eyecare to the poor myself. The poor can be taken care of with resorting to a nationalization of healthcare.

Ok then. What's the plan to fix our crisis in health care? And how can we help our european and other friends out of their respective gulags? The poor bastards.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam: read what you just wrote. You are extrapolating again and doing a pretty piss-poor job of it. It's so tiresome combating you utter ignorant statements.

MSF is a phenomenal organization that consists of great doctors, but MSF doesn't rank their doctors. Moreover, MSF doesn't really "pick and chose" the best-- they take what they can get. It's a volunteer organization that is dedicated to giving as much medicine to as many people as possible.

Again, the best doctors (on average: though there will always be altruistic individuals and/or those who seek other motives) will generally gravitate towards the greatest benefits.

Why do you think that so many nations (UK, Canada & New Zealand, come to mind) keep hiking doctor salaries in order to get them back into the country.

A personal experience: I've been in and out of the hospital a lot in the past two years. Half of my doctors are overwhelmingly from India, China, the UK and the M.E. Why do they all gravitate here? Simple: If you're going to provide a service that you love to provide, why not make $250,000 to a million a year?

~String

Do you know how difficult it is to gain admission to a medical college in India?

 

[Asguard]

Mad your an idiot, there are VERY strong economic reasons for universal health care. Oh and BTW its almost imposable not to pay tax in Australia, it comes out of your pay before you get it and then you claim back what you over paid at the end of the finantial year. No threat of vilonce. Lastly, if you dont like paying tax then go and live in a cave in the wilderness, because tax is NEEDED to run a sociaty. So if you dont want to pay tax then you also dont want the protection of the army, police, ambulance, fire, legal system, unemployment benifits, health care, education, water, electricity, ect

 

[superstring01]

Do you know how difficult it is to gain admission to a medical college in India?

Extremely! India and China will probably overtake the USA in medical advances in the next four or five decades. The only problem is: India is having trouble keeping their doctors in house these days. The various IIT's, the Tata Institute and the Deemed Universities are all top notch.

But, your statements don't negate the obvious facts: the USA currently has the best doctors and medical facilities. The only reason why we're having this argument is because it's such a distasteful fact for all you USA bashers. For you, it's not about the truth: It's about what you want to believe.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

Extremely! India and China will probably overtake the USA in medical advances in the next four or five decades. The only problem is: India is having trouble keeping their doctors in house these days. The various IIT's, the Tata Institute and the Deemed Universities are all top notch.

But, your statements don't negate the obvious facts: the USA currently has the best doctors and medical facilities. The only reason why we're having this argument is because it's such a distasteful fact for all you USA bashers. For you, it's not about the truth: It's about what you want to believe.

~String

Not really, I can be objective.

Let me give you an example.

I had fatigue. I went to an Indian doctor, regular chap with a clinic next door. He asked questions, did a blood test. 5 minutes. Diagnosis anemia. Gave me a prescription. Problem solved.

I was having severe fatigue and dizzyness. Went to an American doctor. First nurse came, checked pulse, medical history, BP; asked questions. 10 minutes. Went to doctor. More questions, dietary history, looked in ears, listened to heart beat, checked throat. More questions. Filled out forms. Diagnosis: Stress. Recommended exercise; an anti-depressant. 30 minutes.

No effect. Went back again after two weeks. Still not recovered. Repeated entire above procedure with stronger anti-depressant. 25-30 minutes

Went back again after two weeks. Very weak. Unable to work. Did blood test. Mononucleosis. Recommended fluids and bed rest. Stopped all medications. I hour waiting time for blood test

 

[superluminal]

Not really, I can be objective.

Let me give you an example.

I had fatigue. I went to an India doctor, regular chap with a clinic next door. He asked questions, did a blood test. 5 minutes. Diagnosis anemia. Gave me a prescription. Problem solved.

I was having severe fatigue and dizzyness. Went to an American doctor. First nurse came, checked pulse, medical history, BP; asked questions. 10 minutes. Went to doctor. More questions, dietary history, looked in ears, listened to heart beat, checked throat. More questions. Filled out forms. Diagnosis. Stress. Recommended exercise; an anti-depressant. 30 minutes.

No effect. Went back again after two weeks. Still not recovered. Repeated entire above procedure with stronger anti-depressant. 25-30 minutes

Went back again after two weeks. Very weak. Unable to work. Did blood test. Mononucleosis. Recommended fluids and bed rest. Stopped all medications. I hour waiting time for blood test

sam, we already know this. Everything american sucks monkey dick. Just let me write the diatribe parts from now on. Give me the subject and I'll fill in the rest.

 

[Asguard]

its results that count and the fact that ANYONE is dying because they cant access dialyisis or having to CHOSE which fingers they can have reatached puts your health care on third world level.

Oh and BTW i found both the med student and the resident who treated my partner to be exelent doctors. So was the indian doc who treated me (the triage nurse left a little to be desired though). The Indian doc i have as a GP is a great doc too and you know what?

not one of them cost me a dollor. Not even when i was refered for an ecco, stress ecco, ECG, chest x-ray, and whole set of blood tests. It was all covered

 

[S.A.M.]

sam, we already know this. Everything american sucks monkey dick. Just let me write the diatribe parts from now on. Give me the subject and I'll fill in the rest.

The best joke?

Asked around to other students. Everyone is first treated with anti-depressants and counseling.

its results that count

yup.

 

[superstring01]

Not really, I can be objective.

Let me give you an example.

I had fatigue. I went to an India doctor, regular chap with a clinic next door. He asked questions, did a blood test. 5 minutes. Diagnosis anemia. Gave me a prescription. Problem solved.

I was having severe fatigue and dizziness. Went to an American doctor. First nurse came, checked pulse, medical history, BP; asked questions. 10 minutes. Went to doctor. More questions, dietary history, looked in ears, listened to heart beat, checked throat. More questions. Filled out forms. Diagnosis. Stress. Recommended exercise; an anti-depressant. 30 minutes.

No effect. Went back again after two weeks. Still not recovered. Repeated entire above procedure with stronger anti-depressant. 25-30 minutes

Went back again after two weeks. Very weak. Unable to work. Did blood test. Mononucleosis. Recommended fluids and bed rest. Stopped all medications. I hour waiting time for blood test

Again, you're using one analysis.

In general "wellness maintenance" America sucks. Our entire health care system is geared towards cures and not preventative maintenance and the over-encumbered system is so obsessed with double and triple checking every last thing that sometimes the simplest things get lost in the process.

But, SAM, this does not negate that the best hospitals and doctors are in the USA.

You're confusing the system with individual doctors and hospitals.

Here's my point: hypothetically, the USA can have both the best and worst doctors/hospitals in the world. There are thousands of each, and I'd be willing to bet there are some hospitals in the USA that a third-world citizen wouldn't take their worst enemy to. That said, if you have a serious illness and need the best treatment and/or doctor: You come to the USA.

Again, I'm not defending an obviously broken system, just the odd fact that this dysfunctional system happens to have the best hospital and doctors available.

I'm lucky enough to live next to the USA's second best hospital (overall) and No. 1 ranked in the area I care about: urology.

~String

 

[superluminal]

The best joke?

Asked around to other students. Everyone is first treated with anti-depressants and counseling.

Of all the things we've compared notes on, you have run afoul of the worst possible examples in every way. You must have some really bad luck. Or mine must be really good. Or, you're fabric... making thi... having selective memories. There. Whew! I almost was mean there.

 

[S.A.M.]

Again, you're using one analysis.

In general "wellness maintenance" America sucks. Our entire health care system is geared towards cures and not preventative maintenance and the over-encumbered system is so obsessed with double and triple checking every last thing that sometimes the simplest things get lost in the process.

But, SAM, this does not negate that the best hospitals and doctors are in the USA.

You're confusing the system with individual doctors and hospitals.

Here's my point: hypothetically, the USA can have both the best and worst doctors/hospitals in the world. There are thousands of each, and I'd be willing to bet there are some hospitals in the USA that a third-world citizen wouldn't take their worst enemy to. That said, if you have a serious illness and need the best treatment and/or doctor: You come to the USA.

Again, I'm not defending an obviously broken system, just the odd fact that this dysfunctional system happens to have the best hospital and doctors available.

I'm lucky enough to live next to the USA's second best hospital (overall) and No. 1 ranked in the area I care about: urology.

~String

Probably, but from what I have heard, Indians in the US prefer to go to India for elective surgery. Not only is it cheaper (and they get a visit to India plus relatives to help with recovery) but they feel more assured of getting a good treatment.

 

[sandy]

...Don't worry about sandy, she thinks the sun shines out of America's Ass.

It does! :yay:

But people must also realise that healthcare isn't a business...

Uh, yes it is. A very big business.

but you want to get the government involved in peoples choice to get an abortion

Killing a baby is different from giving free healthcare to losers.

 

[Myles]

All taxes are collected via the implicit threat of violence and incarceration should you fail to pay. Don't forget that Al Capone (famous US gangster) went to jail for non payment of taxes!

He went to jail for tax for tax evasion because that was the only charge they could pin on him. Even non-Americans know that

Jesus was speaking of personal morality and charity, not government "entitlements". There is nothing charitable about paying taxes.

So how much did Jesus charge for healing the sick ?



By turfing the care of the poor to the government, people feel relieved of the need to help themselves. "It's not my responsibility, I already paid my taxes."

So you believe that some people would deliberately make themselves ill to get free treatment. I've seen no sign of that in Europe. What evidence have you got ?

Entitlement programs turn charity into a "right". It leaves its recipients dependent upon it, while creating a feeling of contempt among the rest of the population for the leeches sucking at the government tit.

We don't view it as charity which by definition implies giving to the poor. Everyone is treated equally, so the question of charity does not arise. We have some scroungers but that does not justify throwing out the baby with the bathwater


Right. A few dollars. Nationalized healthcare would cost untold billions of dollars and, no doubt, push our government into bankrupsy that much sooner. THERE SHOULD BE NO NEW ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS UNTIL THE NATIONAL DEFICIT AND THE NATIONAL DEBT ARE BOTH ELIMINATED!

Has anyone done a cost/ benefit analysis ? I can suggest some avenues to explore


You've mistaken the word "promote" for the word "provide". The government is not to provide anything, it's supposed to promote it. I assure you, our founding fathers would roll over in their graves at the idea of nationalized healthcare.

I'm sure they would but not for the reasons you imagine

Well, what about food? Surely you can't maintain good health without food! Should we allow the evil corporations to charge whatever they want for food! People could starve! Or what about clothing. How can you be healthy when you're freezing to death because the evil corporations have raised the price of clothing too high? The government should provide food, clothing, and shelter for everyone. And education. And..........


I thought America thrived on a free market. Are you saying there is no compettition to keep prices in check? If so, maybe you should think again. I smell corruption and price-rigging. Same goes for the other items you mention


Is everyone, regardless of ability to pay, deserving of basic health care? Sure. Am I willing to throw us all into a collectivist gulag to achieve that goal? No. We have medicaid, various charities, I even provide free eyecare to the poor myself. The poor can be taken care of with resorting to a nationalization of healthcare.

Yes , in a civilized society everyone is entitleed to health care.

PS I find your use of leeches and gulag interesting for what they say about your attitude

 

[superstring01]

Probably, but from what I have heard, Indians in the US prefer to go to India for elective surgery. Not only is it cheaper (and they get a visit to India plus relatives to help with recovery) but they feel more assured of getting a good treatment.

"You've heard of". Well, so have I. I am well aware of Americans going overseas for "general internal" surgery-- it's simple: how hard is it to remove an appendix, get a nose job, or get a kidney transplant? These are simple and commonplace surgeries. Hell, I considered going to Costa Rica for my hernia surgery and my insurance would actually COVER the medical cost! $2500 for a one week stay! My surgery cost over twenty grand here and I didn't get a fun Costa Rican vacation.

What's more, is the hospital there was started by American doctors, funded by American medical research companies (C.R. has very lax regulations) and has some of the most advanced equipment available PLUS a beach front view! Damn... I shoulda' gone!

I'm well aware of the hemorrhaging of American know-how. There's a lot of shit in the USA that is making American doctors rethink their current jobs, but STILL, the USA is the place to be for cutting edge medicine and top-notch doctors.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

"you've heard of". Well, so have I. I am well aware of Americans going overseas for "general internal" surgery-- it's simple: how hard is it to remove an appendix, get a nose job, or get a kidney transplant. These are simple and commonplace surgeries. Hell, I considered going to Costa Rica for my hernia surgery and my insurance would actually COVER the medical cost! $2500 for a one week stay! My surgery cost over twenty grand here and I didn't get a fun Costa Rican vacation.

What's more, is the hospital there was started by American doctors, funded by American medical institutes and has some of the most advanced equipment available PLUS a beach front view!

I'm well aware of the hemorrhaging of American know-how. There's a lot of shit in the USA that is making American doctors rethink their current jobs, but STILL, the USA is the place to be for cutting edge medicine and top-notch doctors.

~String

If you say so: pretty pointless if the average person prefers to go abroad though.

An estimated half million Americans are boarding planes to take their "medical vacations." It's an appealing idea: combine elective surgery with travel to an exotic location. And India is frequently the destination, performing an estimated $700 million in "medical tourism" each year.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4190/is_20070629/ai_n19340205