Universal Health Care

superstring99 said:
American hectare, in general, sucks (that's the mean average). However, my friend, the USA does have the best doctors. In our current day in age money buys the best, and the USA pays doctors more than any other nation on Earth. Moreover, doctors are also attracted to other perks like scientific equipment, which is in ridiculous abundance in the USA. College connections and peer contacts round out the overall fact that the worlds top universities and hospitals are all in the USA.

Tell me why the royal family of Saudi Arabia and Jordan (remember: King Hussein went to the Mayo Clinic for his cancer treatment, do you think a man with access to billions of dollars would have gone to "second best"?), the crown princess of Sweden (she came for Anorexia treatment) and the Sultan of Brunei all have come to the USA for treatment?

~String
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String I bear to differ with you. I think our foriegn doctors are much better than domestically trainned physicians. In the case of the Crown Princess, when she under went treatment, she was living here enrolled in classes. So it would have been very inconvient to leave the country. In the case of King Hassin if Jordan, he was receiving experimental treatments for Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma which was not avaliable elsewhere.

As for the Saudi Arabian principals you referenced, I will have to do more research. But when heads of states are invovled there are always diplomatic concerns, and it is hard to understand how those affect decisions made by monarchs.

I think where the United States excels in in experimental research which is almost one hundred percent funded by the government.
 
sandy said:
None. I saw it on a news story on CNN. You can Google it and research it if you want.

You also have 50 million uninsured criminal aliens they're figuring (at least some) into the mix.
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So you are talking through your hat as usual. We have people like you here. They rely on shouting slogans as they are incapable of debating an issue on an intelligent basis.+
 
Sandy will you get over your obsession with imigrants. Are you native american? If not then stop complaining

"Mayo Clinic is significant in the way the medical physicians are paid. In most health care systems, medical doctors are paid based on the number of patients that they see. The more patients seen, the more a doctor gets paid. At Mayo Clinic, medical doctors are paid a salary that is unaffected by patient volume. Salaries are determined instead by the marketplace salaries for physicians in comparable large group practices. "

I hate to tell you but this is not that radical. GP's are paid in by the visit by medicare in private clinics. They are also paid this way in state run GP superclinics, mostly because that way the fedral goverment picks up the bill rather than the states. However resident doctors in hospitals are paid salerys. The same goes for specialists working for state insitutions, wether they be accute hospitals, phyciatric services ect
 
Asguard said:
Firstly i should say hi to anyone who is still here from the last time i was here
long time no see

Anyway as part of my paramedic's degree i am studying the health systems in different countries and i was astonished at the US health system.

In Australia we have 2 health systems, public and private
The public system is paid for both by tax and the medicare levy (ie another tax).
Medicare pay GP's and if they chose to bulk bill Medicare they are free to the public (some chose to charge above the Medicare rebate for different groups)

Public hospitals are banned by law from charging for services. This includes all procdures and all medication including medication they give you to take home

almost all A & E departments are in public hospitals as are all trauma units, they are also the teaching and resurch hospitals and they have the top staff.

Private hospitals are a bit of a joke (we took one patient back to a private hospital after she had just been discharged because she had a BP of over 200 and they told us she just had "high blood pressure")

We also have the PBS which subsides perscriptions to $30 for everyone and about $5 for people on a health care card

In comparision the US has NO universal health care system and when the Clintons tried to introduce one it was voted down. Now yes i know the politisions got pay backs by the stake holders for this but thats not my question. I want to know why the average american cizitizan doesnt FORCE your pollies to introduce universal health care. I am amazed about this when you can see what happens across the border in Canda, in the UK, Australia, New Zeland, even in cuba.

After all like education, universal health care helps the whole country especially business as all the people are treated early rather than living with treatable and preventable cronic health problems which also puts pressure on the unemployment services because people then cant work when in another contry it would be delt with straight away.
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As a healthy individual I a happy with the AU health care system. BUT, if I were truly in need of some serious health care I'd much rather be an insured person living in the USA.

I also work in the health care, I teach at medical school. I always ask second year med students (lasyt year of formal training) to explain why they breath - specifically what does oxygen to, where does it go, is it the same oxygen as the oxygen found in CO2. 95% have no clue as to ANY of those answerers. Med Ss here only receive 23-27% of the information as those in the USA. I know many students that have given up any serious hope of ever passing the test to practice medicine in the USA. They will just try to get PR and work here.

In short - the PBL medical programs here are a total joke and pure crap. Ad to this the unwritten law of accepting full fee paying Aussies into the program simply because they are dumb and holy shit we're f*cked.

Lastly, three more points.

1) I know people in the medical field in New York that have mentioned how crap Aussie medstudents are. That means, all the way over in NY people have a bad impressions of medical professionals in AU.

2) The expert on "depression" as taught to the Med Ss in this program didn't know that neurogenesis occurs in the brain :eek: This was the expert. The Ss argued with me and said that neurogenesis doesn't occur???: This was AFTER their formal training in Neuro. I had to show them in a book. That's pathetic.

3) I know MANY, not just some but MANY, Japanese who moved here to retire and almost ALL have returned to Japan PURELY because the health care for them at their age is so crap here. They are seriously worried about dieing due to malpractice. MANY, again not just a few - BUCKET LOADS, leave for that exact reason. So these are people in the system getting the hell out of the country for the reason that the healthcare is so shit.

Summary, I like the healthcare, I'm healthy, it's not too expensive, it's not FREE as I pay about $38/week from my tax for it, but not too bad. I don't want to be here when I get too old. It's too dangerous. The next generation of Med Pro will be totally inept.

Michael
 
sandy said:
People should be responsible for themselves. Period.
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Does that apply also to self-defense? One could argue that in the age of biological weapons, access to health care is a matter of homeland security. What about every other thing the Government does to ensure our continued right to life? What good is it to fight the terrorists if you will only die of some treatable chronic condition you can't afford to have treated in a for-profit system?
 
Michal 2 points

Yes there has been a chronic underfunding of health care here by the howard goverment, especially of primary health care, as well as a chronic underfuning of universities. I never said our system was perfect just that i would prefer as system where i didnt have to chose which fingers to have reatached.

Second point is Im sorry i dont belive you about med students not knowing what happens to oxygen. We cant get a job at with the amulance service if we cant describe resperation down to the cellular level so why would med training be less than what is taught in the health science degree?
 
Asguard said:
Michal 2 points

Yes there has been a chronic underfunding of health care here by the howard goverment, especially of primary health care, as well as a chronic underfuning of universities. I never said our system was perfect just that i would prefer as system where i didnt have to chose which fingers to have reatached.

Second point is Im sorry i dont belive you about med students not knowing what happens to oxygen. We cant get a job at with the amulance service if we cant describe resperation down to the cellular level so why would med training be less than what is taught in the health science degree?
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I've been training Med Ss for 5 years. I only get to them in a small window and I ALWAYS begin by asking everyone in the group this question: Metabolically - Why do we breath O2? last time 1 person knew it had something to do with electron transport. As fro neurogenesis, I was shocked that even the supposed "expert" prepping the case on depression had no clue, later when I asked the students one of them basically called me a "lier" and said the brain doesn't make new neurons.:bugeye:

As for the Japanese leaving, I know a lot of Japanese there is a huge population in AU and I know a lot have left.

Finally, I agree, if I had to choose between losing my fingers I'd rather be here (that is if I didn't lose both here). It's crazy to choose between losing a finger or not. That is seriously f*cked. But, is it that typical? I remember the woman that lost her child here in NSW a few months ago - she was told to wait and wait and wait and finally her child died in a miscarriage I think? My point is, lets not pick one or two incidences and blow them up.

I've been in the program for 5 years, I know a lot of good people that have left teaching medicine because it is so dumbed down. Many of the older Medicos call this generation "Glorified Therapists" because they don't know dick about human physiology. Anatomy is so poor it's shocking. Shocking.

Med School Order of Priority:
- Maximize overseas full fee paying Ss.
- Maximize resident full fee paying Ss (these are dumb Aussies that "interviewed" well goes something like this: main interview Q: Do you have the money to pay full fees? YES. Q: Do you want to work in the Aboriginal areas. Oh Aboriginals? Who the F are ... OHHHH them black people ... I mean ... YES YES YES, always have and always will - I'll dedicate me life to it sir. Q: You are sure you can have ALL the money? Yup, me Dad's got it. Your in. Next)
- Finally, left over spots in Med program - fill with the brightest Aussies.

That's a FACT
Michael
 
Think about this Asguard,

Where does the O2 go that you breath? What about the O in CO2? Where did that come from?

Basic Biochem - mean BASIC

All Ss should know at least the basic foundation - even if most of it's crap.
 
Here's a tip. You need something done. You get yourself a foreign trained Indian doctor and hope that they are willing to take a liking to you.
 
Hopefully that will end soon. One of the new goverments election policies was to abolish full fee paying places (thank god). I agree that case in NSW was shocking, so was the mengitis case (the coriner is going to rip through the hospitals in both these cases). The policy for the Mersy was a joke, removing it from strategic planning. There are alot of things about our health system i disagree with. For instance when i went to the Norlunger hospital with chest pains, the triage nurse took my pulse and SP02 and then said "its nothing why are you waisting time here" and i sat there for 2 hours. She even bitched when i asked for a vomit bag. The indian doc who saw me however was really good, didnt get the right diognosis of anixity but then nither did I. Flinders hospital on the other hand were apsolutly marvilous with my partner. Right diognosis, right tests to make sure, refered the abnormal symptoms up to check. The only problem with the med student in that case was that she couldnt put in a simple drip but maybe that was because it was her first time (almost sugested i do it myself).

Im by no means saying our system is perfect and your right that the jap system leaves ours to shame but i would much rather be questioned on my symptoms than my insurance when i walked into a hospital
 
I know, it picks up a carbon atom when its "burnt" in the cells and is expelled as CO2 or would you like me to go deeper into the technical aspects at a cellular level on how carbohdrates and oxygen are used to create ATP and how ATP is then used to fuel both mussles and the sodium, patasium pump?
 
In short
O2 is the electron acceptor for e-transport and makes metabolic water H2O
CO2 the O is usually from Krebs and was a part of a sugar.
 
The thing is in the USA you can get great health care if you have insurance or get totally boned. So in that case, it's probably better to take mediocre health care and everyone gets some - as long as you are healthy. But, lets face it, if you were in serious way you'd probably rather wish that you had the best possible care and would probably be willing to go to the USA and pay for it.

Basically this is humanity.

People are in it for the money. So if you want to get the best you have to pay.
 
I havent studied bioscience yet (doing it this semester) sorry. I was just saying that in order to pass the interview to become a paramedic we are required to understand resperation down to the cellular level, so why would med be any different.
 
But do they actually get what they pay for? seems from everything i have read that the companies will do just about anything to get OUT of paying when they have too. Atleast medicare isnt worried about how much profit it makes. Nor for that matter is Medibank being member owned.
 
madanth said:
That's what I figured. That's the difference between a free market system and one controled by government/insurance companies.
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And all you have to do is get things like broken bones, diabetes, and appendicitis to behave like nearsighted eyes, and you can set up medical care as a market and get market efficiency, etc.

The current US attempts are well illustrated by one of my co-workers: he has a separated collarbone, from a non-job accident a few years ago. His insurance at the time had a very large deductable (all he could afford, for insurance), he couldn't work for a while after the accident, he was about to lose his newly bought house, so he postponed surgery. He is currently on his third job since, attempting to establish enough time on the benefits or save enough money to fund surgery.

By the time he can afford the operation, simply the tax loss to the government from the inferior jobs and various other manipulations would have bought the original operation. There is also the community loss in home investment etc, the eliminated chance of his joining the military (he was seriously considering it), and several other side effects to the community as a whole. Plus the operation so long delayed will be much more expensive and longer in recovery, and will not restore as much capability as timely surgery would have.

Note that everything there involves market forces at work. No government regulations were involved, no insurance company malpractice - just business as usual.

We have had "free market" medical care for hundreds of years, in the US and many other places. It has always sucked, for everyone except the very rich.
michael said:
So in that case, it's probably better to take mediocre health care and everyone gets some - as long as you are healthy. But, lets face it, if you were in serious way you'd probably rather wish that you had the best possible care and would probably be willing to go to the USA and pay for it.
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What you are willing to do doesn't matter, in the US or anywhere. Most people can't pay the inflated cost of US medical care, and if they are in a "serious Way" they still can't pay it.
 
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iceaura said:
What you are willing to do doesn't matter, in the US or anywhere. Most people can't pay the inflated cost of US medical care, and if they are in a "serious Way" they still can't pay it.
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Why do you think the cost is so inflated? It's because of insurance companies and the government. If you ever examine your EOB, you'll see that the insurance companies never pay those inflated prices.

When one of my sons broke his leg, he had to be in the hospital for three weeks. The total bill was over $300,000. Between what I paid and what the insurance company paid, the hospital got about $30.000. Yet they accepted this as payment in full.

Why is that OK, but if some schlub without insurance had needed the same treatment, the hospital would have expected the entire $300,000? It would have hounded him into bankruptcy if he didn't pay, too.
 
This is simply a reflection on society. I can not see why it should cost 300K. That's ridiculous. The thing is there seems to be this tendency for there to be those that are considered the haves and then there is the have-nots.

Much like houses and cars and whatever, some people get the best and some people get crap.


I was thinking. We simply need a way to make sure that the wealthy are lumped in with the have-nots. That way there is an incentive for all people to receive good medical care. We need to make a public list of Medical successes and failures. Especially in terms of malpractice suites. We needs to get a seriously impartial examination of the Medical programs in AU.
 
Would be nice. Mostly that examination only comes after someone has died, like the manigacolcle (god i hate that word) case involving a compleate screw up by SAAS. I read that corinors report and cringed at how badly the ambo's performed. Not noticing a falling GCS, not checking puple responce until they arived at the womens and kids, not having the qualifide ambo treating such a sick kid and altering there paperwork to cover it up once they realised what a big screw up they had made. They got fried and quite correctly too.

Maybe what we need is a medical obudsman or something like the CCC for the health system. We also need the whole thing put under one level of goverment, its to easy for them to get away with the fed blaming the states and the states blaming the fed. DEFINITLY dont want to see that idiotic Mersy plan put into effect. Paying for exactly the same services at each and every hospital with no strategic planning. God what a mess

By the way i found it astonising that when Bush came to Australia for APEC he had to bring his own ambulance. Seriously, if any other leader including our own PM required an ambulance they would get the first one avaliable but not the US president. Why? and further more is this the case when he is in the US??? he cant use a regular ambulance?
 
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