Unf**king Believable, A mosque to be built at Ground Zero

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Exactly the same argument applies to the US flag, dollar coin, and cultural center planted next to the ruins of the Iraqi's mosque.

It's completely different. We're not talking about Iraqi citizens where talking about American soldiers, whom most see as agressive Imperialist invaders, doing all of this next to the site of a ruined masjid. We are talking about American citizens, people living and working in America, wanting a better outlet then the one they presently have, within there own community, to practice their religion. The two are completely different.

I see though, you're defining the "people of the neighborhood," as non-Muslims and the foreign, despised "other," as the Muslim residents. Nice.

 

[iceaura]

We are talking about American Muslims, American citizens, living in America, wanting to build an Islamic Centre.

Really?

My bet is most American Muslims would have a better handle on the situation than that - or am I supposed to take any American Muslim as speaking for all of them, this time? Even the foreign financed, politically motivated, agenda driven ones?

They just happened on this site because it was, what, the center of an American Muslim community and the location was reasonably priced?

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

No, but neither should every single Muslim from the whole state be drawn into the area, walking round in Niqabs, and praying at a 100 decibels through crackling megaphones.
Talk about in-your face. Don't they know when to back off?

Do you not see this as being ridiculous though? You're depiction of this is an exaggeration and I don't really see this happening. There is Islamic Centres all across America and yet, nowhere is this the case.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

My bet is most American Muslims would have a better handle on the situation than that - or am I supposed to take any American Muslim as speaking for all of them, this time? Even the foreign financed, politically motivated, agenda driven ones?

You're ignorance is astounding.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

There is no freedom or democracy in Islam, so it doesn't belong anywhere where people are free.

Oh, of course not.

The reason is to not glorify a psychotic cult like Islam.

Blah, blah, blah. Why do you continue? I don't fucking give a shit what the fuck you have to say. All these "snappy," insult you make towards Islam don't mean jack shit.

You're personal insults demonstrate my point exactly.

Oh, I'm sure they do. In otherwords, you can sit here and have your temper tantrums and make all these insults, yet when I do it, suddenly I'm the bad guy. Boo-fucking-hoo, got an issue? Need a tissue?

 

[iceaura]

It's completely different. We're not talking about Iraqi citizens where talking about American soldiers, whom most see as agressive Imperialist invaders, doing all of this next to the site of a ruined masjid. We are talking about American citizens, people living and working in America, wanting a better outlet then the one they presently have, within there own community, to practice their religion. The two are completely different.

You are making a lot of assumptions, there.

Why are Iraqis so bigoted against American civilians, living in the area, eh? Nobody said anything about soldiers.

Tell you what: you find support for your idea that this "Muslim cultural center" was the idea of local Muslims, American citizens living in and around the building site, who chose the site for their convenience in the practice of their religion close to home (wait a minute - weren't we informed by the well-spoken that this isn't a mosque?), provided the key organization, obtained the financing as they would for any construction for such purpose, and I'll switch to supporting the thing.

The Muslims in my area don't build gigantic "cultural centers" for local worship and "practice of their religion", but New York - who knows?

My bet is most American Muslims would have a better handle on the situation than that - or am I supposed to take any American Muslim as speaking for all of them, this time? Even the foreign financed, politically motivated, agenda driven ones?
”


You're ignorance is astounding.

Not of your posts. C'mon - is it "muslims all together" this time, or how do I choose? And would you take that bet?

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Why are Iraqis so bigoted against American civilians, living in the area, eh? Nobody said anything about soldiers.

Are there any of there? Is this not hypothetical nonsense? I mean, come on. Again, the comparison is silly and flawed. Not only this but as I stated a million times already exists masjids and Muslim organizations within the neighborhood, should they be kicked out? Should all Muslims be kicked out of NYC? You can't let those Muslims practice their Islam in the same city that it happened in, that'd be insensitive, right? What about the entire state? You can't let those Muslims practice their Islam in the same state it happened in can you? It's the same basic logic as you're using here.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Tell you what: you find support for your idea that this "Muslim cultural center" was the idea of local Muslims, American citizens living in and around the building site, who chose the site for their convenience in the practice of their religion close to home (wait a minute - weren't we informed by the well-spoken that this isn't a mosque?), provided the key organization, obtained the financing as they would for any construction for such purpose, and I'll switch to supporting the thing.

So, in otherwords, it must be foreign backed Muslim sleeper cells bent on world domination in a secret plot? In otherwords, again, you're defining the Muslim community that exists and lives in the neighborhood as the foreign, unwanted and despised "other."

 

[iceaura]

So, in otherwords, it must be foreign backed Muslim sleeper cells bent on world domination in a secret plot? In otherwords, again, you're defining the Muslim community that exists and lives in the neighborhood as the foreign, unwanted and despised "other."

Projection, apparently.

What I am pointing out is that local communities of Muslims in my area do not build huge "cultural center" complexes like this for themselves.

Unless otherwise informed, I see no reason to believe the local community of Muslims is the major - or even an important - factor here.

Are there any of there? Is this not hypothetical nonsense?

There are tens of thousands of American civilians living in Iraq. And they have no place to hold a real Thanksgiving dinner, or celebrate their heritage. Right next to a ruined mosque, museum, or other significant Iraqi war wound sounds like the perfect place, doesn't it? What better way to introduce real American culture, rather than this violence and mayhem that Iraqis tend to blame on all of us, as if we were all the same, eh?

Or do you see a problem?

Not only this but as I stated a million times already exists masjids and Muslim organizations within the neighborhood, should they be kicked out?

And no one is making a fuss about them. I'm not, for example. I'm not objecting to them at all. So maybe the problem isn't irrational bigotry after all. Maybe there's something about this project that is different - what do you think?

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Do you not see this as being ridiculous though? You're depiction of this is an exaggeration and I don't really see this happening. There is Islamic Centres all across America and yet, nowhere is this the case.

The current largest Islamic Centre in America is this one, in Dearborn Michigan.
A beautiful building, the main body of which is only two stories high.

This Manhattan proposal is Alice in Wonderland stuff.
It's completely crazy.

An idea like this can only have come out of Saudi Arabia, dreamt up in the mind of one of the country's loopy Royal Family.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

What I am pointing out is that local communities of Muslims in my area do not build huge "cultural center" complexes like this for themselves.

Point being? Whom are you to define what is huge and what is reasonable? From what I understand they are using a pre-existing building.

Unless otherwise informed, I see no reason to believe the local community of Muslims is the major - or even an important - factor here.

Why? So, the important factor is the size? Or the alleged foreign connection?

What exactly is the important factors here according to you.

There are tens of thousands of American civilians living in Iraq. And they have no place to hold a real Thanksgiving dinner, or celebrate their heritage. Right next to a ruined mosque, museum, or other significant Iraqi war wound sounds like the perfect place, doesn't it? What better way to introduce real American culture, rather than this violence and mayhem that Iraqis tend to blame on all of us, as if we were all the same, eh?

Really? So, they can't celebrate this Thanksgiving in their home? I must be mistaken because I thought the Thanksgiving holiday involved a family meal. Do you want a huge banquet hall? Come on, you're not going to twist this example into being comparable. Not only this, I'm not entirely convinced that there is indeed, "tens of thousands," of American civilians living in Iraq. Even, if there are truly that many there, they are not Iraqi citizens.

Again, there were Muslims killed by the 9-11 attacks as well. Why is this community being pushed aside and disregarded? Why do you continue to define them as the foreign "other," that every American should be suspicious off regardless of how benign said organization may be? Also, it's not projection, nice try though, you're post make is clear that, this is how your defining this community, case in point, your comparison.

I find it odd and funny that a group in America, whose main aim is to better relations between the Muslim world and community and the West, this is whom you're picking an argument over. This is whom your choosing to oppose. This is the group that you're suspicious off. But, on what basis? You can concot all these hysteria-inducing theories about the group but what proof do you have? Or are you just assuming, that since it involves Muslims, there must be mischief afoot?

And no one is making a fuss about them. I'm not, for example. I'm not objecting to them at all. So maybe the problem isn't irrational bigotry after all.

Really? So, what do you think your comparison and posts implies and suggest? Hmm?

 

[GeoffP]

You haven't done anything but raise the possibility of the sorts of hateful speech that MIGHT be heard at Park 51 in the future...but you have forgotten that this is America where we don't fear speech, let alone potential speech, and we absolutely do not allow prior restraints on the freedom of speech based on the content or potential content of that speech.

Actually, is this really true? The permissibility of hate speech is variable, as far as I can tell, left up to the conflict between your rights to free speech and your obligations to social equality. Numerous organizations considered as hate groups have been banned from speaking at any number of venues. I think you could legally extend this to the construction of a pulpit for the dissemination of such speech; the lawyers on the forum haven't chimed in on this one, but the only one I know of in this debate is on the other side. Sooo...in this America, it seems that one can and does fear speech, including potential content. Frankly, it happens everywhere.

Your solution to preventing potential speech that you might not like once spoken is to forbid Muslims from practicing their religion in the area.

This is quantifiably false and offensive. Desist.

Well, okay, you have made it clear what you and several others believe: that Muslims bear collective guilt for 9/11 because all Islam bears direct guilt for that attack. You have made your point, so now let them build their community center...because it is illegal to stop them and they rightly do not care about your mere opinions.

Panda, I'm sensing a great deal of affront from you about this issue; there's no reason to start invoking triumphalistic dismissals.

Does Islam (and not "Muslims", per se: let's try to retain our apropos here) bear some collective guilt for 9/11? I'm not sure. This is a much larger issue. Does Catholicism bear guilt for the Inquisition, or for the outrages committed against Native Americans? Possibly. It could certainly be argued thus.

As for it being illegal to stop this centre from being built, let's have no more of that nonsense right now. It is entirely within the purview and legal right of any number of interested parties to interfere with or object to the construction of this centre/mosque, as it is the legal right of any other interested body to obstruct the construction of such edifices, the object of whose construction is still not clear (the good Imam having first claimed one thing and then another about the funding of the mosque, and now dummying up about the origin of the cash stream altogether). Whether it is a moral thing is another matter, and depends on motives. Mine are clear. I don't know about Reza's, or anyone else's.

If you still fear them, though, that's fine. Watch what they actually say and if they say something illegal (as in, making actionable threats), tell the police.

If only that were so assured of efficacity.

I am quite sure they will be watching what you and your kind say too, lest your side potentially make terroristic threats against their community center or its users. (I see the possibility for potentially objectionable speech in the future on both sides.)

Panda, my interest in your arguments is dropping exponentially. It's a custom of debate that when one party (or kind, even) begins tossing around personal attacks, they've effectively resigned from the discussion. Is this now your objective?

I don't care whether you (or I) agree with things the Cordoba Initiative believes in. I don't care, for example, if they want Sharia law to apply in this country on an optional basis. They have that system already in Israel and it creates no problems there, and there are voluntary Rabbinical Courts in NYC.

And? Supposition (bolded) aside, I have no greater liking for Rabbinical courts, where they involve infringement on the rights of women: this occurs in both the Rabbinical and Sharia systems. Given the kind of legal misogyny possible in such a system, does this really seem best to you? I ignored the remainder of your discussion on this score, except to interrogate your theme: our cultural experience and maturity is really best demonstrated by the abrogation of the full scope of rights enjoyed by fully half our human population? I cannot believe in all seriousness that this is your argument.

The Muslims you should more rationally fear are, TRUST ME, not setting up shop in a high profile community center guaranteed to draw media attention and continuous community oversight.

Oh? Have you ever heard of the Muslim Brotherhood? What ought to frighten us more: a bloodbath in New York, or the promulgation of the teachings that caused such a bloodbath, if indeed this be the aim of Mr. Reza?

Not an easy call, is it, Panda?

First off, it's no secret that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's ideaology is Wahhabi (which is based on the writings of Muhammad ibn 'Abd-al-Wahhab, written in the 18th century) and that it's this ideaology that is the problem.

Factually incorrect. There are problems with Islam in politics the world over, from Morocco to Malaysia.

You're ignorance is astounding.

You spelled "your" wrong, maestro.

 

[IamJoseph]

A mosque to be built at Ground Zero.
They have got to be kidding surely.
http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell#p/u/0/vjS0Novt3X4
This is a disgusting idea. To build a 13-story mosque at ground zero and have the grand opening on September 11th 2011 !! And politicians who support this atrocity claiming it's okay because of America's diversity are simple deluded beyond belief. What an insult to all who were murdered, to have this insulting building of the religion of peace shoved in American's faces.
Pat has it right let them build the thing in Death Valley, or not at all.

The Mosque should be removed, first and foremost, from the real ground zero in Jerusalem. There can be nothing such as sacred Islamic soil which is based on robbery and falsehood. This is the test humanity faces, and it will pop up in other places as a reminder. Of course, I find the issue of a huge mosque anywhere near the NY ground zero sickening - but then again, America calls the 9/11 perpetrators as its national interest allies - when it should have hauled all Islamic Regimes in Gitmo. Fat chance!

 

[IamJoseph]

You are making a lot of assumptions, there.

Why are Iraqis so bigoted against American civilians, living in the area, eh? Nobody said anything about soldiers.

Tell you what: you find support for your idea that this "Muslim cultural center" was the idea of local Muslims, American citizens living in and around the building site, who chose the site for their convenience in the practice of their religion close to home (wait a minute - weren't we informed by the well-spoken that this isn't a mosque?), provided the key organization, obtained the financing as they would for any construction for such purpose, and I'll switch to supporting the thing.

The Muslims in my area don't build gigantic "cultural centers" for local worship and "practice of their religion", but New York - who knows?
Not of your posts. C'mon - is it "muslims all together" this time, or how do I choose? And would you take that bet?

Its not by local Muslims - the money is from oil dollars intended to disrupt other non-Islamic cultures - declared so by the Muslims, their scriptures and seen across the globe.

The best is that 'reciprocity' applies. If there are 5000 mosques in America, no more mosques should be allowed unless this is reciprocated in the most pivotal Islamic places, such as churches in Mecca. This is based on the premise:

WHAT IS HATEFUL TO YOU - DO NOT TO OTHERS.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Factually incorrect.

Actually, no, it's not, look it up.

There are problems with Islam in politics the world over, from Morocco to Malaysia.

Point being? Who says the Wahhabism is an ideaology contained only in the KSA? Who says that the "problems," in Morocco and Malaysia have anything to do with Islam or Muslims? Why do you keep treating both as one homogenous entity?

You spelled "your" wrong, maestro.

I don't give a fuck. :shrug:

Oh, no! A typo on an internet forum, oh lawdy, you sure got me there buddy.

 

[Ja'far at-Tahir]

Its not by local Muslims - the money is from oil dollars intended to disrupt other non-Islamic cultures

Prove it.

The best is that 'reciprocity' applies. If there are 5000 mosques in America, no more mosques should be allowed unless this is reciprocated in the most pivotal Islamic places, such as churches in Mecca. This is based on the premise:

This is nonsense. Not only this, there is nothing wrong with having churches or other places of worship in countries where the majority of the population is Muslim.

 

[GeoffP]

Actually, no, it's not, look it up.

I did, and I'm right. The problem's bigger than the Wahhabi bugbears. You better have a look around.

Point being? Who says the Wahhabism is an ideaology contained only in the KSA? Who says that the "problems," in Morocco and Malaysia have anything to do with Islam or Muslims?

When they keep springing from Islamic involvement in law, it's a reasonable conclusion that it has something to do with Islam. Maybe Islam should just get its nose out of law and politics.

Why do you keep treating both as one homogenous entity?

I don't; you think I do for some internalized reason. They do spring from one source, however, which is the involvement of Islam in politics and social law. Wahhabism isn't the basis of all Islamic legal failures of sociality, but it all ends up in the same bucket.

I don't give a fuck. :shrug:

Oh, no! A typo on an internet forum, oh lawdy, you sure got me there buddy.

:shrug:

 

[GeoffP]

This is nonsense. Not only this, there is nothing wrong with having churches or other places of worship in countries where the majority of the population is Muslim.

Better let them know, then. There seems to be some objection.

 

[cosmictraveler]

It wouldn't bother me where anyone builds there religious buildings however in this particular case I believe that , to many American citizens, building this structure at this site is very disturbing because of what happened there in 2001. Whenever you want to reduce hate and fear you don't go out and rekindle that with building this sort of thing at this site. To antagonize many Americans isn't the way Muslims should be trying to set good examples of how they really are. I'd just drop this building site and find another location or a building that is already built and convert it.

 

[IamJoseph]

Prove it.

No need. Without oil dollars, there is almost no income for Muslims. They cannot even produce dates anymore. Islam is doctrined to take over the rest of the world - even by force. I can post 100's of such claims made by Islamic clerics as well as such doctrines being actioned in a host of countries. The Islamic push now is in Africa - pelting the downtrodden. And in the middle-east, the rights of a host of non-Islamic peoples and nations have been almost totally negated. Christians have been fleeing all their sacred cities where they were once majorities.

This is nonsense. Not only this, there is nothing wrong with having churches or other places of worship in countries where the majority of the population is Muslim.

This is a sham. While Muslims enjoy citizenship inn other countries, this is not reciprocrated in Islamic countries. Result: a one way traffic of populations, then this followed by the demand for majority rule, then the land is taken. We see this in India and Palestine: Jews are forbidden in Islamic states like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, while hordes of Muslims settle in and around Israel - what does that tell us? Now Kashmir is being targeted - the majority rule is subsequent to Indians not being allowed as citizens in Pakistan - so India will keep loosing lands but this will not impact on Pakistan! Jordan was created for the sole purpose of catering to the swelling Muslims who flocked to this area to overwhelm the Jews - the Muslims did not go to Jordan, so why was it created? The muslims of India did not go to Pakistan or Bangadesh - they remained in India. Its a sham.