How is it in anyway insensitive? Muslims were killed in the attack as well.
Unf**king Believable, A mosque to be built at Ground Zero
- Thread starter pavlosmarcos
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How is it in anyway insensitive? Muslims were killed in the attack as well.
I think one of the problems is that, countries like KSA (which likes to bankroll such projects) have been traditionally hostile to other faiths in KSA. Its really not possible for me to hear some official from KSA talk about Muslim tolerance when at the same time it's not possible to freely build Synagogues and Hindu Temples in downtown Mecca or Medina.
Not that this won't happen in the future. In the future I'm sure Mecca will have just as many Temples to other people's Gods as any other major city (if it remains a major city after the oil runs out?). It's just that at this moment KSA is so utterly bigoitted and intolerant towards non-monotheistic, other different monotheistic, new age and different beliefs.
There was a small Hindu Shrine in someones apartment where Hindu's prayed and they ended up getting in trouble and tossed out of the country for having it. As there are 100s of millions of informed Muslims who visit Mecca - why don't they protest to see that the same sort of tolerances we're talking about in New York (or London, Tokyo, etc...) aren't extended in Mecca?
IMO traditionally Christians, Jews and Muslims have been intolerant of other people practicing different faiths in their cities. Everyone but the Muslims have seemingly moved on and gotten to work on our ever shrinking world - no?
There's nothing wrong with building a Mosque ANYWHERE in the USA where it's legal to build a Church or Scientology Temple whatever.... so, there's really no moral argument here. Yeah, Cordoba was a conquered Roman city. So? I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a Greek city prior that that! They didn't pick the name Cordoba to represent oppression of the infidel in Muslim occupied Spain. Cordoba, being thousands of miles away from Baghdad, wasn't all that religious and so Jewish, Christians and Muslims tended to get on with life without too much religious hassle IOW it was relatively tolerant regarding people's individual monotheistic superstition. For the time period, and again considering we're dealing with monotheism, it wasn't complete shit like everywhere else. Everyone knows this.
Not that this won't happen in the future. In the future I'm sure Mecca will have just as many Temples to other people's Gods as any other major city (if it remains a major city after the oil runs out?). It's just that at this moment KSA is so utterly bigoitted and intolerant towards non-monotheistic, other different monotheistic, new age and different beliefs.
There was a small Hindu Shrine in someones apartment where Hindu's prayed and they ended up getting in trouble and tossed out of the country for having it. As there are 100s of millions of informed Muslims who visit Mecca - why don't they protest to see that the same sort of tolerances we're talking about in New York (or London, Tokyo, etc...) aren't extended in Mecca?
IMO traditionally Christians, Jews and Muslims have been intolerant of other people practicing different faiths in their cities. Everyone but the Muslims have seemingly moved on and gotten to work on our ever shrinking world - no?
There's nothing wrong with building a Mosque ANYWHERE in the USA where it's legal to build a Church or Scientology Temple whatever.... so, there's really no moral argument here. Yeah, Cordoba was a conquered Roman city. So? I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a Greek city prior that that! They didn't pick the name Cordoba to represent oppression of the infidel in Muslim occupied Spain. Cordoba, being thousands of miles away from Baghdad, wasn't all that religious and so Jewish, Christians and Muslims tended to get on with life without too much religious hassle IOW it was relatively tolerant regarding people's individual monotheistic superstition. For the time period, and again considering we're dealing with monotheism, it wasn't complete shit like everywhere else. Everyone knows this.
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I see this debate is wandering off into strange grounds again.
The point has been raised several times that the "Cordoba Initiative" is not a benign organization, but the defenders of this outrage continue to ignore this point, despite the fact that so blind a source as a New York senator has called for the investigation of the imam-de-charge. One wonders: would the defenders of the questionable imam's work similarly cheer a Catholic chapel and recreational centre being built at the site of the Oklahoma Bombing?
The point has been raised several times that the "Cordoba Initiative" is not a benign organization, but the defenders of this outrage continue to ignore this point, despite the fact that so blind a source as a New York senator has called for the investigation of the imam-de-charge. One wonders: would the defenders of the questionable imam's work similarly cheer a Catholic chapel and recreational centre being built at the site of the Oklahoma Bombing?
Why is it 'immoral'? You've just slung a label around, you haven't justified why it's immoral.
What don't you understand about the composition of the victims? MANY OF THE VICTIMS WERE MUSLIM. So you clearly DO NOT RESPECT THE DEAD.
Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
You haven't done anything but raise the possibility of the sorts of hateful speech that MIGHT be heard at Park 51 in the future...but you have forgotten that this is America where we don't fear speech, let alone potential speech, and we absolutely do not allow prior restraints on the freedom of speech based on the content or potential content of that speech. Prior restraints are illegal, and worse they are immoral because it is an act that limits freedom undertaken out of fear and prejudice.
Your solution to preventing potential speech that you might not like once spoken is to forbid Muslims from practicing their religion in the area. Well, okay, you have made it clear what you and several others believe: that Muslims bear collective guilt for 9/11 because all Islam bears direct guilt for that attack. You have made your point, so now let them build their community center...because it is illegal to stop them and they rightly do not care about your mere opinions.
If you still fear them, though, that's fine. Watch what they actually say and if they say something illegal (as in, making actionable threats), tell the police. I am quite sure they will be watching what you and your kind say too, lest your side potentially make terroristic threats against their community center or its users. (I see the possibility for potentially objectionable speech in the future on both sides.)
I don't care whether you (or I) agree with things the Cordoba Initiative believes in. I don't care, for example, if they want Sharia law to apply in this country on an optional basis. They have that system already in Israel and it creates no problems there, and there are voluntary Rabbinical Courts in NYC. In fact though, charges against the Cordoba Initiative are 99% hyperbole because the frightened rabbits really just can't rationally analyze anything related to Islam without blowing things out of proportion. It's simply not worth the time to clarify where you are making errors, because the distinctions are subtle, and those who feel as you do don't care about the subtle distinctions. (For example, those on your side keep referring to the community center as a "mosque" when its not, and keep saying it is "at Ground Zero" when its not.) Irrational fear makes rational debate pointless and, to be clear, to be afraid of all Muslim expressions of faith in southern Manhattan because what a handful of Muslims did nine years ago is irrational. The Muslims you should more rationally fear are, TRUST ME, not setting up shop in a high profile community center guaranteed to draw media attention and continuous community oversight.
No need.Morality is not a logical demonstration.You are born with it or not.
If your morality is taken from the writings and is not an inner feeling of what is right and wrong ,then yes, you can try to sort them.
The Golden Rule:"Do not treat others in ways you would not like to be treated."
Do you think it is moral to build a Christian center in the Muslim world,in the place where people were killed (regardless of religion) because of Christian extremists?
For me it is immoral.
If my child were killed there, I would not allow there to build a Muslim center.
So that space belongs spiritually those killed(or their relatives there).If they agree,I withdraw my words but if not,then I agree with them.
Why do you think are different situations depending on the religion of those killed?
Very, very, very well said. I wish more people had this opinion in America and elsewhere. :thumbsup:
First off, it's no secret that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's ideaology is Wahhabi (which is based on the writings of Muhammad ibn 'Abd-al-Wahhab, written in the 18th century) and that it's this ideaology that is the problem. Also, why would devout Muslims whom are making hajj, an act central to Islam and is infact the fith pillar in Sunni Islam and the 3rd practice out of the 10 Furu al-Din in Shi'i Islam, use this as a platform for a political demonstration? It's an extremely important and sacred act. Do you not understand the importance of hajj in Islam? Seriously, secondly this argument is dumb, it's like saying, if the Russians hated Stalin so bad, why didn't they stage protests? Come on.
These people want to plant a huge Muslim Centre right next to a memorial site where other Muslims in the name of Islam flew two planes into two skyscrapers and burned people to death.
You really can't understand why this might be felt insensitive?
I'm trying to find an example of something which would be as insensitive as this, but it's difficult.
Here goes.
The Battleship HMS Sheffield, was sunk by an Exocet in the Falklands War, with the loss of 18 lives and many terrible injuries.
Lets say that a body of people, with unknown funding, calling themselves the "Peace" group, decide that the Exocet is very misunderstood and has done great good in its time, so they apply to convert a huge building in the City of Sheffield, 14 stories high, into an Exocet exhibition centre.
Do you think that this might be considered a little insensitive?
I know this is ludicrous, but it it hardly more ludicrous than what is being proposed.
The example is not a metaphor, so don't read any subtext into it.
I have deliberately chosen an example which has nothing at all to do with Muslims, Jews, Gaza etc., so don't infer that I'm saying that Muslims are like bombs.
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So you rather have a huge old unused Burlington Coat Factory instead? What memorial site? Nothing has been built over ground-zero and it still remains a giant gaping hole, from what I understand. Also, there already exists Muslim organizations and masjids within the area, should they be forced to move? Infact, going by your logic, shouldn't you kick all the Muslims out of NYC period? I mean, just by practicing our religion so close to such a "holy," site, would surely be an insult to those whom died, right? Shouldn't you just block off and close everything down within a 25 mile radius of ground zero? Shouldn't you also not allow business too? Conducting business near such hallowed ground would insult the memories of the victims correct? So, there should be no advertising or businesses anywhere near the site to preserve it's memory and sacredness.
Hmm, a place where people could learn Arabic, learn more about Islam and Muslims and place where Muslims can actively become positive members of their community? Yeah, sounds horrible.
What about the Muslim victims that died in the towers? What about the NYC Muslim community whom, not only may have lost family members or loved ones during the attack but also, post 9-11 became the new American boogeyman? Again, there seems to be a need for a larger worship space and if anything, the Islamic Centre would only benefit the community through education and other such works. Why do Americans get pissed when American Muslims try to practice their religion and do something positive for the community and be an active part within that community?
Let's try planting a US flag and installing an inset commemorative US dollar coin, by way of memorial, on the grounds of the largest destroyed mosque, museum, or the like, in Iraq, and see if that clarifies the matter for you. We can include a place to learn English, a school for teaching the true principles of the religion most common in the US military, and a cultural center for explaining US values, and so forth, if that helps you to see how unobjectionable the idea would be.ja'far said:
So? What could possibly be your reasoning there?ja'far said:
The rest of us have to deal with the Islam that is, not the ideal Islam that should be.ja'far said:
Why are devout Muslims so willfully oblivious to the political nature of their ideologies and actions?ja'far said:
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This is incoherent horseshit that can in no way be compared to building an Islamic Centre in the same neighborhood as ground zero. When will you people get it through your heads, that it's not fucking being built on top of ground zero? Why the fuck do you keep repeating misinformation?
I have already explained this.
Again, you don't get what the fuck I'm talking about, as evidence by your moronic responses to my posts. Not only that, you keep speaking of Islam as if it were some homogenous entity, when it's not. Secondly, your basing this off a fictional narrative written by Western fucks who don't know jack shit about Islam and are trying to provide justification for Western imperialism. It's from this premise that you keep bitching about Islam but again, it's total horseshit. Secondly, what does this response have to do with my post? Nothing. What is the political nature of hajj? Hmm? Explain this to me.
Well, the people in that neighborhood disagree with you.ja'far said:
We note that you do understand how such boneheaded behavior would be offensive, anyway.
On Tuesdays and Thursdays there are a whole bunch of separate sects whose offenses against common human decency and sense are not part of the real Islam - the real Islam is over here, in this mosque, not that one.ja'far said:
On Wednesdays and Fridays it's the one true faith that unites a billion disparate people in truth and good will, and the West making war against one is warring against all.
Look: where did the idea that the US was warring against Islam - all Muslims - come from? From where came the notion that the WTC attacks were a blow against the West by Muslims defending Islam? Not from the US people, I can guarantee you.
I suspected that, but wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.ja'far said:
Tried and failed.Ja'far said:
Once again: suppose the US held a Thanksgiving dinner at our memorial we built next to the ruins of the Baghdad mosque - nothing political, you understand, in giving thanks for blessings bestowed, right?
What premise are you talking about, and what fictional narrative did you have in mind? You seem to be making a slew of unwarranted assumptions, about me in particular.ja'far said:
I'm just pondering the inability of the Islamic posters here to figure out why such a construction next to Ground Zero would offend almost everyone who lives in New York City and most other Americans. It's especially striking because these very same people have no trouble seeing the inherent offensiveness of, say, Danish cartoons to rural Nigerians.
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How are you defining "people"? Considering the fact there already exists Muslim organizations and masjids in the area, I would assume, that the people in that neighborhood would include the Muslim residents as well. Or are you defining the "people in the neighborhood," as the non-Muslims and the "other," as Muslims? Should all Muslims in NYC be banished to a ghetto so as not to offend the delicate senses of the other NYC residents? Or better yet, should all Muslims be banned from living in NYC all together? How can you let those nasty Muslims practice their religion in the very city it happened? It's easy to see, where this absurd logic can go.
More incoherent bullshit.
Where the fuck have you tried? Cut the shit.
Again, you're example is complete shit. Try again. We are talking about American Muslims, American citizens, living in America, wanting to build an Islamic Centre. There is no logical reason as to why this would be insensitive unless you accept and assert the premise that Islam and Muslims are inherently violent and barabric people, whom doing nothing but evil deeds and cause destruction and are hell bent on taking over the entire globe.
It seems absurd to me that when Muslims try to do positive things within there own community and show people "hey, were not so bad," and that what the "terrorists," allegedly did doesn't really reflect the true teachings of Islam and so forth. A place, where anyone, Muslim or a non-Muslim, whitebread, average Joe American can go and learn about Islam and Muslims doesn't really seem like a bad idea. Not only this, you people bitch and try to claim "where are the Muslims that are against X, why don't Muslims do blah blah blah, where are Muslims doing postive things, [insert more bitching]" yet when American Muslims actually try to show and demonstrate all the things you bitched about that they weren't doing, now your trying to stop them from doing this because of some insane theory that it's somehow insensitive.
Sure, if you're a fucking moron and accept this as "they gonna build a dang ol' mosk on deh groound zero, those bastards!" I'm sure it would seem insensitive but if you pulled your head out of your ass, you would see this is just hysterical misinformation. It's insensitive, if you don't really think about it.
Again, I say, cut the shit. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
We don't need more religious buildings for believers to worship their psychotic gods, especially the Abrahamic god, the worst of the bunch. Islam is barbaric and shouldn't be glorified in this way.
Instead, a school or university should be built there.
Exactly the same argument applies to the US flag, dollar coin, and cultural center planted next to the ruins of the Iraqi's mosque.ja'far said:
So, "logically", you would find them unobjectionable - not at all offensive.
"You people" are the ones you complain about not distinguishing between different Muslims.ja'far said:
And it's not a "theory", however insane - it's a fact.
I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about, here.ja'far said:
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This is hilarious. America, home of freedom of speech, democracy, and all this? Right, if they have the money and there is a need within the present religious community of that given neighborhood there is no reason why the shouldn't be allowed to do so. You're hysterical bitch fits over Islam and religion, while being hilarious, are not relevant in terms of this conversation.
No, but neither should every single Muslim from the whole state be drawn into the area, walking round in Niqabs, and praying at a 100 decibels through crackling megaphones.
Talk about in-your face. Don't they know when to back off?
This is hilarious. America, home of freedom of speech, democracy, and all this?
There is no freedom or democracy in Islam, so it doesn't belong anywhere where people are free.
The reason is to not glorify a psychotic cult like Islam.
You're personal insults demonstrate my point exactly.