Translation & Muslims

[Michael]

When you read it out aloud, does the oldest Quran sound any different?

That's a good question. Perhaps it does or perhaps it doesn't but, apparently, the message is different.

Would you like me to look up the reference?

I beleive it suggests there are thousands of small differences.

Would it matter?
Would it make your Qur'an any different if tomorrow Muslim scholars unearthed the oldest Qur'an in existence and it had many difference and perhaps a few extra chapters?

It seems to me one can not be better than Perfect?

Michael

 

[Michael]

I would say that person has a lot of other issues besides religion. What I do see is that such people think they should re-educate other people, ie promote their beliefs. Its funny actually.

Ever hear of "On Fire for the Lord"

It goes both ways.


One ex-Muslim now atheist (that lives in the USA) told me he always felt watched and never felt comfortable in Islam after his "epiphany" he said life instantly became brighter, better and he was happier. He never looked back.

I'd say he much more stable than me

 

[Michael]

OH and you didn't answer my question.

Which is better in your mind - Belief in God and sadness or lacking a beleif but having personal happiness?

There are many Buddhist monks that are very happy - they lack a beleif in God.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's a good question. Perhaps it does or perhaps it doesn't but, apparently, the message is different.

Would you like me to look up the reference?

I beleive it suggests there are thousands of small differences.

Would it matter?
Would it make your Qur'an any different if tomorrow Muslim scholars unearthed the oldest Qur'an in existence and it had many difference and perhaps a few extra chapters?

It seems to me one can not be better than Perfect?

Michael

As far as I know (and I have looked at Puins work on the Sana'a manuscript), the differences are not in meaning, just refinement in the written text. When one considers that the Kufi script was invented specifically for the Quran and during its evolution, the recitation was written down (phonetically) in other scripts, which were scripta defectiva, any such finding does not surprise me in the least.

What I do know is that the tradition of tajweed is as old as the Quran and has a continuous isnad. So I'm not worried about any earth shaking discoveries here.

 

[S.A.M.]

OH and you didn't answer my question.

Which is better in your mind - Belief in God and sadness or lacking a beleif but having personal happiness?

There are many Buddhist monks that are very happy - they lack a beleif in God.

Since I have no desire to be a monk and some monks have also found the same happiness in skinning Banpos its an irrelevant question.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ever hear of "On Fire for the Lord"

It goes both ways.


One ex-Muslim now atheist (that lives in the USA) told me he always felt watched and never felt comfortable in Islam after his "epiphany" he said life instantly became brighter, better and he was happier. He never looked back.

I'd say he much more stable than me

So basically he felt oppressed under a dictatorship and ran away to make a better life for himself. Good for him. Does he care about the people he left behind or is he happy not having any responsibilities?

 

[Michael]

I'm not saying you SAM - people, anyone.

Which is better a person who retains faith but is unhappy or a person that lacks faith but is happy?

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm not saying you SAM - people, anyone.

Which is better a person who retains faith but is unhappy or a person that lacks faith but is happy?

Unlike you I have no desire to decide what is right for everyone else. Some people find happiness in abandoning their culture, others in abandoning their family, still others in abandoning their religion. Right or wrong, according to me, is a subjective issue in such cases. People can rationalise just about everything they want to do.

 

[Michael]

So basically he felt oppressed under a dictatorship and ran away to make a better life for himself. Good for him. Does he care about the people he left behind or is he happy not having any responsibilities?

He has a wife and works hard. He's close to 45 I think. Some people in his family are pretty well off. Some of his family now live in the USA. I think any of his family could if they wanted to - his sister married an American she met working in UAE who is an oil executive. They live well. (well not him - he's a researcher like us! He's poor!) My point is his family is fine and are not any different than any other family regardless of religion.

Also, I said he is atheist in regards to God. To my surprise he's superstitious! Funny huh?

Regardless he told me he was much happier and isn't that more important??? Happiness in this one life or potential happiness AFTER being dead :bugeye:

 

[Michael]

Unlike you I have no desire to decide what is right for everyone else. Some people find happiness in abandoning their culture, others in abandoning their family, still others in abandoning their religion. Right or wrong, according to me, is a subjective issue in such cases. People can rationalise just about everything they want to do.

You know, you always do this. I may be pigheaded but your ... ... .... wishy washy. No, you're ... ... .... .. . whatever - you just ... oh yeah, you are elusive.

I don't mind elusive in general conversation but in a debate it's a time waster.

 

[Michael]

And what do you mean "unlike me"? I said I was more than happy the guy was happy in his new beleif. Live and let live is my motto.

THAT'S actually what I'm trying to get two to see actually.

Maybe you don't notice it but going back to Sura 109 "O unbelievers...

You can't see the INHERENT bigotry in such an opening statement.

Here imagine a civil rights worker saying this:
"O yea Niggers you will be accorded the respect you desire..."

Sounds stupid doens't it?

Now go back and read Sura109

 

[S.A.M.]

He has a wife and works hard. He's close to 45 I think. Some people in his family are pretty well off. Some of his family now live in the USA. I think any of his family could if they wanted to - his sister married an American she met working in UAE who is an oil executive. They live well. (well not him - he's a researcher like us! He's poor!) My point is his family is fine and are not any different than any other family regardless of religion.

Also, I said he is atheist in regards to God. To my surprise he's superstitious! Funny huh?

Regardless he told me he was much happier and isn't that more important??? Happiness in this one life or potential happiness AFTER being dead :bugeye:

I have met many agnostics in KSA. The only thing I have noticed about them is that they are inordinately self absorbed. I think the two may be related.

You know, you always do this. I may be pigheaded but your ... ... .... wishy washy. No, you're ... ... .... .. . whatever - you just ... oh yeah, you are elusive.

I don't mind elusive in general conversation but in a debate it's a time waster.

Why? because I do not feel the necessity to decide for other people? I never do. Its who I am.

 

[S.A.M.]

And what do you mean "unlike me"? I said I was more than happy the guy was happy in his new beleif. Live and let live is my motto.

THAT'S actually what I'm trying to get two to see actually.

Maybe you don't notice it but going back to Sura 109 "O unbelievers...

You can't see the INHERENT bigotry in such an opening statement.

Here imagine a civil rights worker saying this:
"O yea Niggers you will be accorded the respect you desire..."

Sounds stupid doens't it?

Now go back and read Sura109

I find no bigotry inherent in it. Its a statement of fact. I will say to an atheist, you follow your way, let me follow mine. There are no two ways about it. Why pretend there are?

If I say to you, Michael, I disagree with your beliefs, I think Islam is better and you are wrong, however, you are free to follow your way, how is that bigoted?

Obviously I consider my views better or why would I choose to follow them?

I sometimes think you are intellectually self deceptive since you claim that you accord the same value to all beliefs. Considering your views on religion as expressed all over this board, that is a blatant lie.

 

[Michael]

I have met many agnostics in KSA. The only thing I have noticed about them is that they are inordinately self absorbed. I think the two may be related.


Why? because I do not feel the necessity to decide for other people? I never do. Its who I am.

Firstly, I'm an underpaid living in another country with crap support researcher - please. It's probably a demographic thing. Oil rich KSA.....

Secdonly, I'm asking for an opinion SAM. That's it nothing more or less.

Which is better a an unhappy theist or a very happy atheist?

(NOTE: I am sure if I wrote happy Muslim or a very unhappy atheist? This'd be answered in a snap.

 

[Michael]

I sometimes think you are intellectually self deceptive since you claim that you accord the same value to all beliefs. Considering your views on religion as expressed all over this board, that is a blatant lie.

I think I was according the same likelihood of being correct in a theological debate.

Anyway, I'm a supporter of secular pluralistic society - this means I support Islam SAM. I think a society with a little of everything is much better than a monoculture. For the West anyway. It's one reason I dispare at the spread of Brittenyism....

Michael

 

[Michael]

It's also why the notion of a One World Caliphate is repulsive. This doens't mean I want the Mosque next to my favoret Kebab shop to close!

 

[S.A.M.]

Firstly, I'm an underpaid living in another country with crap support researcher - please. It's probably a demographic thing. Oil rich KSA.....

Secdonly, I'm asking for an opinion SAM. That's it nothing more or less.

Which is better a an unhappy theist or a very happy atheist?

(NOTE: I am sure if I wrote happy Muslim or a very unhappy atheist? This'd be answered in a snap.

Like I said, an unhappy atheist-to-be always has issues other than religion. The conversion is never spiritual or even intellectual, mostly it is emotional or in some cases, due to social conditions.

Most of the converts I have met and there are some good ones around, know about the religion very superficially and have never bothered to actually involve themselves in their faith. :shrug:

 

[Michael]

Like I said, an unhappy atheist-to-be always has issues other than religion. The conversion is never spiritual or even intellectual, mostly it is emotional or in some cases, due to social conditions.

What about Buddhist converts that lack a beleif in God?

OK, what is better, a Muslim who is unhappy or an ex-Muslim that converted to Buddhism and is now very happy?

I can continue to reword this,
Michael


Anyway, I have to scat. the lab calls....

 

[Michael]

Oh before I run off, using the argument that people sung the Qur'an and ergo it's "sung" version was static really makes one wonder why it was ever written down at all.. ... it's almost as if people were singing all sorts of stuff and some thought it was time to canonize something.

 

[S.A.M.]

It's also why the notion of a One World Caliphate is repulsive. This doens't mean I want the Mosque next to my favoret Kebab shop to close!

The one world Caliphate, if it ever comes about will be brought about by the West.

Before the Islamophobia that has become the norm now, most Muslims did not care what Muslims in other countries thought or did, or how they practised their religion or what their society was like.

Now, every time something happens in Sudan or Saudi Arabia, all Muslims everywhere have to account for it. I have never seen the movement towards unity in the ummah as strong as it is today. And currently there is a movement towards a re-evaluation and standardisation of Islamic laws with various organisations coming together for every single aspect of life that affects Muslims. Its no longer an AIDS conference in Sudan held by the local religious committee, its the Islamic Conference on AIDS in South Africa, with representatives from all Muslim countries.

We still don't have an international organisation that represents all of us, but its not far in the making. Whether it will be for the better or worse, remains to be seen.

Oh before I run off, using the argument that people sung the Qur'an and ergo it's "sung" version was static really makes one wonder why it was ever written down at all.. ... it's almost as if people were singing all sorts of stuff and some thought it was time to canonize something.

The people who were originally reciting it knew the language. For someone else to learn the language and recite it, it needed to be written down.

What about Buddhist converts that lack a beleif in God?

OK, what is better, a Muslim who is unhappy or an ex-Muslim that converted to Buddhism and is now very happy?

I can continue to reword this,
Michael

Does atheism guarantee happiness? Its an irerlevant question