Torture and Atheist Morality

[iceaura]

But for the atheist, this is all. And there is no accountability.

That alone makes an atheist more likely to invest in methods and objectives that above all favor self interest. Me and mine, rather than you and yours.

I see no evidence that atheists favor self-interest more than theists, and I have yet to see the slightest indication that theists have any more accountability than atheists. Where is this accountability ?

Everyone has a conscience (or lacks one) regardless of their ascription of it to a deity, after all.

Look at Dawkins, with all the people and power at his disposal, he creates what? an atheist movement. Clearly, he is concerned only with his beliefs rather than any social goals.

He seems to be concerned with the bad effects of theism on the welfare of his fellow humans, and he is working to reduce them. How is that lacking in social goals ?

Be interesting to see how many of those at the top of the decision making chain are atheists.

Which chain of decisionmaking ? Greenpeace? Doctors Without Borders ? Red Cross ? Sierra Club? ACLU ?

I know one chain dominated by strong theists all the way up - the US Air Force. I believe the other Service branches are also, to varying extent.

And the US Federal Government is of course in the hands of theists - has been for some time.

If you are talking about the chain of political power in nation states, a more interesting aspect is how many of them find it easy to use theistic belief to gain power. Whether they have it themselves is more problematical (your position seems to be that if they are behaving badly they cannot be theists, so discussion there is not likely to get anywhere) - but the apparently groomed vulnerability of the theist to irrational and sociopathic dishonesty in political matters is one of Dawkins's major indictments.

Also be interesting to know how many atheists interact with people outside of work, excluding family.

Be even more interesting to know how many atheists interact with family. But the destruction of non-work community by corporate industrial capitalism is going to bias your findings - in the West, anyway.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

So what lessons should religious leaders learn from WW2?

Not to sure, the same as all of us perhaps no difference.
I meant when you said "even if you could agree that the jews to what ever degree....did not invest in the war machine" I put blame on this on religious leader.(it is obviously not the complete cause don't mis-interperate me)

Wait. You mean Jews were not paying taxes in Nazi Germany?

O.K. how about if a successful muslim owned buisness in america making clothes is approached by the government and told 40% of the clothes you make will now be U.S. military uniform's, if the owner turns round and says no I will not make these uniform's I want no part of this I am a muslim not an american, how would he expect to be treated,and as ethnic's employ ethnic's how would his employee's be treated, how would redneck's react

This doesn't really seem to be a direct response. Afghanistan has been interfered with - to use a euphemism - for a long time by other nations. Perhaps if those nations faced their own demons on an educational level they would be less likely to mistreat, contort, colonize, steal from countries like Afghanistan.

True.

 

[S.A.M.]

Once again you trot out the highly controversial thesis that communism is an atheist philosophy. Communism is a Christian philosophy even if its eventual leaders tried (with little success) to suppress religion. The fundamental principle of communism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," is a slogan from the Book of Acts.

As I have asked many times, who can imagine a Confucian or a Hindu accepting the preposterous premise that what a man takes from civilization need not be correlated with what he gives back?

We would not have communism if we had not already had Christianity, with its supernatural disconnection between philosophy and reality.

As Chesterton said, those who will not believe in God will believe in just about anything.

Communism is just a sample of things to come.

Afghanistan has been interfered with - to use a euphemism - for a long time by other nations. Perhaps if those nations faced their own demons on an educational level they would be less likely to mistreat, contort, colonize, steal from countries like Afghanistan.

Yeah and its not the only one. Its easy to say they should go back to where they came from, disregarding that they are not free to do so.

 

[S.A.M.]

I see no evidence that atheists favor self-interest more than theists, and I have yet to see the slightest indication that theists have any more accountability than atheists. Where is this accountability ?

Everyone has a conscience (or lacks one) regardless of their ascription of it to a deity, after all.

He seems to be concerned with the bad effects of theism on the welfare of his fellow humans, and he is working to reduce them. How is that lacking in social goals ?
Which chain of decisionmaking ? Greenpeace? Doctors Without Borders ? Red Cross ? Sierra Club? ACLU ?

I know one chain dominated by strong theists all the way up - the US Air Force. I believe the other Service branches are also, to varying extent.

And the US Federal Government is of course in the hands of theists - has been for some time.

If you are talking about the chain of political power in nation states, a more interesting aspect is how many of them find it easy to use theistic belief to gain power. Whether they have it themselves is more problematical (your position seems to be that if they are behaving badly they cannot be theists, so discussion there is not likely to get anywhere) - but the apparently groomed vulnerability of the theist to irrational and sociopathic dishonesty in political matters is one of Dawkins's major indictments.

Be even more interesting to know how many atheists interact with family. But the destruction of non-work community by corporate industrial capitalism is going to bias your findings - in the West, anyway.

Then clearly, there appears to be no difference between theists and atheists, its the nature of cultural interaction with other peoples that is the basis of intolerance in these "secular societies". Why this need to suppress all other languages, all other cultures?

 

[shaman_]

But for the atheist, this is all. And there is no accountability.

Except for their conscience of course.

But what the theist has is an excuse to ignore that conscience. Only with religion could people be convinced that killing heathens and hating gays is a perfectly holy thing to do. Not only does morality not come from religion, religion allows you to ignore your morals.

 

[S.A.M.]

Except for their conscience of course.

But what the theist has is an excuse to ignore that conscience. Only with religion could people be convinced that killing heathens and hating gays is a perfectly holy thing to do. Not only does morality not come from religion, religion allows you to ignore your morals.

Isn't conscience a religious construct? Is there any evidence of a development of conscience within a society that is separate from religion?

 

[Asguard]

sam religion is a social construct. There is no fary under your bed, it was an invention to keep the sociaty together and to sperate US from those non humans over THERE

 

[James R]

SAM:

I think Fraggle you'll find community and family feeling is next to nil in secular societies.

What a strange concept.

It reminds me of that old Sting song "Russians" - the one that goes "I hope the Russians love their children too."

Do you think community and family feeling disappeared in communist Russia? Do you think it does not exist in China? Cuba? Or do you think that community and family exists in all these places because of "underground religion"?

There are many atheists posting on this very forum. Do you really think they have no community or family values? Do you imagine they don't love their children? Really?

What I see here is atheists constantly writing about social justice issues, community, care for others etc. Is it all a front put on by the evil atheists who actually care for nothing but themselves? You think?

Personally I will tell you there is a massive difference between what I have seen in the Middle East and the United States. The notion of family and community itself is completely different...

Different doesn't mean absent. You need to look harder.

Isn't conscience a religious construct? Is there any evidence of a development of conscience within a society that is separate from religion?

I'm surprised you even have to ask the question. Do you really think it is impossible to care for another person or a group of people unless you believe in sky fairies?

 

[S.A.M.]

Asguard, James

Did you have a religious upbringing?

 

[shaman_]

Isn't conscience a religious construct?

No it is the other way around. The moral code within religion is a result of our conscience.

Do we follow all the teachings of the bible? No, we ignore the violent, absurd ones and try to follow the good ones. How do we know how to cherry pick the good out of this religious text which is supposed to be the word of god? We clearly have morals that didn't come from religion.

Is there any evidence of a development of conscience within a society that is separate from religion?

That doesn't imply cause and effect. Wouldn't these same societies be guilty of acts of violence and drug abuse. That doesn't mean they are required for the development of a conscience. It is merely a reflection of human nature. Part of which is our desire to believe in deities.

 

[James R]

SAM:

That sounds to me like a catch-22 question.

If I say "Yes, I had a religious upbringing" then you go on to assert that any morals I have must have come from that. On the other hand, if I say "No", you assert that I have no real understanding of what it means to be part of a religious community, and how my idea of morals is actually inferior to what I would have if I was religious.

Right?

 

[Asguard]

SAM i rejected the religion i had been brought up in because it was imoral.

My ETHICS over road my religion

 

[glaucon]

SAM i rejected the religion i had been brought up in because it was imoral.

My ETHICS over road my religion

Well said.

 

[iceaura]

As Chesterton said, those who will not believe in God will believe in just about anything.

Typical theistic projection. . It's the people raised to believe in Gods who actually do believe in just about anything - virgin births, angels, magic books, the necessity of theistic upbringing in having a conscience, you name it.

Then clearly, there appears to be no difference between theists and atheists, its the nature of cultural interaction with other peoples that is the basis of intolerance in these "secular societies". - -

As far as the intolerance among the dominant theists who run the show, several explanations have been offered. It can't be anything to do with the theism, of course, because of course it can't - a priori assumption. We see that many theists elsewhere are touchy and violent and intolerant people, but that is because they are insulted or morally superior or poor, so that's OK and carries no implications for the US. In the US we search the 4% atheists for clues as to why the US is so intolerant, and how they are getting the other 96% to behave with so little respect: apparently it has to do with the "secular society" they impose, which deprives the theistic of their morals and consciences.

The details are a bit fuzzy, as yet. But it has nothing to do with corporate capitalism, the necessity of defending or concealing absurdities in one's fundamental beliefs, or ingrained misogyny and the like.

Why this need to suppress all other languages, all other cultures?

We are discussing the need of some Muslims to suppress other people's movies, cartoons, etc.

Isn't conscience a religious construct?

Uh, no, SAM - people have consciences, in general, and the ones who don't are mentally ill - sociopaths, found in many religious hierarchies as well as elsewhere. Religions do tend to take absurd credit for virtues in general, but that one is silly even for Islam.

 

[Asguard]

"Isn't conscience a religious construct?"

conscience is just a form of empathetic expression. Empathy has developed over 1000's of years as a weapon against those who would harm the pack (either inside or outside). It also serves the duel purpose of further tying the pack together

It has nothing to do with fairies and everything to do with evolution

 

[glaucon]

Isn't conscience a religious construct?
...

I seriously thought that this was said in jest.

I could not possibly conceive of someone being so naive as to believe this.
Seriously, this has got to be a joke right??

 

[spidergoat]

Isn't conscience a religious construct? Is there any evidence of a development of conscience within a society that is separate from religion?

Society doesn't have a conscience, individuals do.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

As Chesterton said, those who will not believe in God will believe in just about anything.

Sounds like this Chesterton fellow was a real doofus. What a stupid thing to say. If we're able to overcome our naivete and reject religion, why would we be naive enough to fall for something else?

Communism is just a sample of things to come.

Most of the Europeans who fell for communism were/are Christians. As for the Chinese, they were just bloody desperate and ready to try anything that came along. They certainly never developed the genuine grass-roots support for communism that arose naturally in the Christian countries. They just learned to make peace and put up with it, as they had been doing with their governments for thousands of years.

Isn't conscience a religious construct? Is there any evidence of a development of conscience within a society that is separate from religion?

Why do you reject the concept that human beings are advanced enough to recognize the value of civilization to themselves and the people they love? All a conscience needs to do, at the bare minimum, is to guide you to contribute to the maintenance of civilization. You don't have to advance it, you don't really even have to quite pull your weight every single day because by definition civilization produces a surplus and if you're not a real slacker you can catch up next week. You just have to make sure you don't drag civilization down, as Christians, Jews and Muslims do in their paroxysms of tribal violence at regular intervals.

Asguard, James: Did you have a religious upbringing?

I can't speak for those guys but I was raised by atheists. I never even heard of religion until I was about six or seven and then I laughed my head off because I assumed it was a joke or just a lie some kid's parents had told him like Santa Claus.

Yet my parents had no trouble teaching me morality and I had no trouble developing a conscience. I did my share of irresponsible things as a child but I never really hurt anybody or caused serious damage, and I have never in my life hit anyone.

As an adult I have always tried to give more than I take, to guide people who need it and to help people in trouble. Not every single day, we all have days when we just feel like being an asshole and I've done a few things in weak moments that I'm not proud of. But on the balance I've been a good person and I've tried very hard to make a positive difference. Being old enough to look back now, I think I've succeeded.

I love civilization because of all the wonderful things it gives us, and that's all the motivation I need to support it by behaving in a civilized manner.

 

[Asguard]

Im really surpised that a scientist would say this, SAM have you never herd of a sociopath? These inderviduals are born without the ability to feel empathy for anything or anyone. We dont know yet what causes it but it DEFINITLY has nothing to do with religion. If you dont belive me then go to a jail and try to teach a sociopath religion. They will lap it up as a means to a) manipulate you and b) as a means to manipulate the system

Just be careful that you NEVER reveal any personal infomation to them because they will track you down, torcher, rape and murder you. They cant help it, they cant understand that you are anything other than a toy for them to play with

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

SAM i rejected the religion i had been brought up in because it was imoral.

My ETHICS over road my religion

Same here:bravo: