Torture and Atheist Morality

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

No, no. This is not supported by historical documents or testimony. The Jews in Germany were the targets of rabid hatred long before the start of WW2. Further many jews did in fact consider themselves German and this was part of why they did not leave a fiercely anti-semitic environment and were slow to realize how severe the threat was.

You have to look econimacaly at the situation between wars.
events like this have a cause, something caused anti-semitism.
The killing of german ethnics was obviously a main part of the result only, but their ethnic status was only part of the problem and cause.
I agree that a lot felt like german citizens but, decision on mass boils down to religious leaders, it would have been govermental approach to head Rabbi's, just as it is down to muslim clerics now.

I don't agree with what happened at all but if we are truly supposed to learn from our mistakes how can we, unless we know the truth?
from just a few post's on here there is a vast array of interpetations.
My feeling is that, you shouldn't have a leader in any country who is not from that country, "An austrian in charge of germany killed 6 million germans" to learn from this is to never put schwarzzeneger in power:wave:

also i'm sure that around three time as many Ukrainians were starved to death by Russia, why is this not taught along side the holocaust or is most available history on the war Jewish biased and, nothing more than a sideshow or follow-up to there original attempt at documenting history " the bible"

P.S i realy don't want to get into debate on the holocaust I can't disagree with you because your points are also factors of what happened

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

I don't agree with what happened at all but if we are truly supposed to learn from our mistakes how can we, unless we know the truth?

I am not sure what we you are talking about. I don't think it should be a lesson we learn from this that 'we' should support the war plans of dictators unless we are willing to accept being killed en masse. I don't think this a good way to look at causes and lessons, even if I agreed that the Jews to whatever degree created their own problems by not supporting Hiter's build up of the war machine. A build up that was supported by American industry and was in fact extremely effective. If he hadn't been such a poor leader Germany could have taken a lot of land and then tried for more later, rather than taking on the whole world.

Should 'we' if 'we' are Americans, jewish, italian, afro american, whatever. Pick any group. Should 'we' only support Bush's wars and future wars to prevent our group from being herded into gas chambers? Is that a lesson we should learn?

I do think in the States we get a disproportionate focus on the jewish Holocaust. One area we should see more of is where our country contributed to and supported other holocausts, dictatorial regimes, undermined democracy, etc. I am quite sure it would be useful to know about Russia's treatment of Ukranian's but given that this information will simply add to 'our' sense of being the best country, reinforce notions about how good capitalism is as opposed to everything else and put the problem 'over there' and not contribute to any soul searching, I do see it as a high priority.

Countries must face their own demons.

As far as Arnold being pres., no, I don't like the idea. Not because he was Austrian born however.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

I am not sure what we you are talking about. I don't think it should be a lesson we learn from this that 'we' should support the war plans of dictators unless we are willing to accept being killed en masse. I don't think this a good way to look at causes and lessons, even if I agreed that the Jews to whatever degree created their own problems by not supporting Hiter's build up of the war machine. A build up that was supported by American industry and was in fact extremely effective. If he hadn't been such a poor leader Germany could have taken a lot of land and then tried for more later, rather than taking on the whole world.

I'M not blaming Jews, but the decision's of their religious representative.
the lesson to learn is how to avoid genocide, how to stop it going on with out the populus's knowledge until it's too late.

Should 'we' if 'we' are Americans, jewish, italian, afro american, whatever. Pick any group. Should 'we' only support Bush's wars and future wars to prevent our group from being herded into gas chambers? Is that a lesson we should learn?

No not at all, if you were an Iraqi living in america with good buisness and asked to inrease your tax payment's or something similar beause of the countries financial hardships due to war, and you refused on the ground's that you are not american but Iraqi how would you expect to be treated?

Countries must face their own demons.

True, pity afghanistan can't be left alone to sort their's .

As far as Arnold being pres., no, I don't like the idea. Not because he was Austrian born however.

i'm sure it doesn't help though

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

I'M not blaming Jews, but the decision's of their religious representative.
the lesson to learn is how to avoid genocide, how to stop it going on with out the populus's knowledge until it's too late.

So what lessons should religious leaders learn from WW2?

No not at all, if you were an Iraqi living in america with good buisness and asked to inrease your tax payment's or something similar beause of the countries financial hardships due to war, and you refused on the ground's that you are not american but Iraqi how would you expect to be treated?

Wait. You mean Jews were not paying taxes in Nazi Germany?

True, pity afghanistan can't be left alone to sort their's .

This doesn't really seem to be a direct response. Afghanistan has been interfered with - to use a euphemism - for a long time by other nations. Perhaps if those nations faced their own demons on an educational level they would be less likely to mistreat, contort, colonize, steal from countries like Afghanistan.

 

[spidergoat]

The Jews were killed for their failure to ecconomicaly support germany in ww2 their claim being we are not german we are jewish?
Considering the financial problems Germany had and the large amount of financial pull the Jews had, it was only right that the government interviened, taking what they refused to give. The downside for the Jews is that hitler was a loony and decided that because of the arrogance of the religious leaders in there failiure to commit as german citizens, they were treated like the enemy????????

BS. The Jews ran newspapers that were anti-fascist, and some were pro-socialist, so they became the fascist's political enemies.

 

[S.A.M.]

And so to the extent that you do find people in genuine opposition to the engine, you may find them disproportionately atheistic. Because the role of theistic religion in setting up and defending this engine makes the workings of it easier for the atheist inside it to see. They have less personal investment, even if complicit otherwise.

But for the atheist, this is all. And there is no accountability.

That alone makes an atheist more likely to invest in methods and objectives that above all favor self interest. Me and mine, rather than you and yours.

Look at Dawkins, with all the people and power at his disposal, he creates what? an atheist movement. Clearly, he is concerned only with his beliefs rather than any social goals.

Be interesting to see how many of those at the top of the decision making chain are atheists.

Also be interesting to know how many atheists interact with people outside of work, excluding family.

 

[clusteringflux]

You fail to take into account the fact that the leaders of these nations (the US and the UK), especially in recent times, who support and/or commit acts of torture are strict and strong Christians.

Most christians I know would disagree with this statement as much as SAM would disagree that terrorists are strong muslims.

 

[spidergoat]

There is no real accountability for theists, either. There is some theoretical accountability after death, but at that point, it doesn't matter. No one on our Earth can be aware of it.

Self interest must be concerned with your interests, because we live in a highly connected world. It is in your self interest to create a functioning and happy world community.

Dawkins is involved in lots of things involving science, not just atheism.

 

[S.A.M.]

There is no real accountability for theists, either. There is some theoretical accountability after death, but at that point, it doesn't matter. No one on our Earth can be aware of it.

Self interest must be concerned with your interests, because we live in a highly connected world. It is in your self interest to create a functioning and happy world community.

Dawkins is involved in lots of things involving science, not just atheism.

All words, the so-called secular societies clearly put self interest before any other. Look at the WTO, the WB, the IMF, the UN, the sanctions imposed, the aid with strings attached.

http://www.globalissues.org/

Not only biased towards their own societies but absolutely and completely destructive towards others. And when people from these countries attempt to move to better their lives, they must face "secular" discrimination, ridicule; if they protest, they face sanctions, carpet bombing and collateral damages.

Where are the morals?

 

[spidergoat]

Theocracy had a terrible history, I don't think we want to repeat the freaking dark ages. The things you are talking about have nothing to do with the issue.

 

[S.A.M.]

Theocracy had a terrible history, I don't think we want to repeat the freaking dark ages. The things you are talking about have nothing to do with the issue.

No we do not. But you have to agree the atrocities of atheist fellowships in the last 60 years surpasses all the theist fellowships before them, perhaps cumulatively.

 

[spidergoat]

Since there has not been an atheist president of the United States, ever, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Religious wars have been the norm for more than 2000 years.

 

[S.A.M.]

That is based on the assumption that an atheist president would actually declare himself as one.

 

[clusteringflux]

Since there has not been an atheist president of the United States, ever, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Religious wars have been the norm for more than 2000 years.

Um, Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini come to mind. But she said the last 60 years.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh alright, the last century

Don't forget Mao and Pol-Pot, or Kim Jong

Also the bias shown frequently by the UN, WTO, WB, IMF.

 

[clusteringflux]

Don't forget Mao and Pol-Pot, or Kim Jong

Oh yeah! Thanks.

 

[spidergoat]

Secularism is still far more preferrable to theism as an organizing principle. Secularism can be almost anything, it can be rigid or adaptable, totalitarian or democratic. The one thing it doesn't do is incorporate ancient supersitutious beliefs. People still suck, nothing will change that. People are still greedy, religious people as much as anyone. Religion doesn't solve a damn thing. Atheism isn't a recipe for utopia, it's just playing with a full deck, dealing with reality as it is.

 

[clusteringflux]

The names I see were quite shy of a full deck. They're infamous wackos, infact.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

No we do not. But you have to agree the atrocities of atheist fellowships in the last 60 years surpasses all the theist fellowships before them, perhaps cumulatively.

Once again you trot out the highly controversial thesis that communism is an atheist philosophy. Communism is a Christian philosophy even if its eventual leaders tried (with little success) to suppress religion. The fundamental principle of communism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," is a slogan from the Book of Acts.

As I have asked many times, who can imagine a Confucian or a Hindu accepting the preposterous premise that what a man takes from civilization need not be correlated with what he gives back?

We would not have communism if we had not already had Christianity, with its supernatural disconnection between philosophy and reality.

 

[spidergoat]

Stalin made himself a God, and his citizens were used to the Royal family being considered devine. Atheism is characterized by rethinking basic premises, something that was not allowed under the totalitarian rule of Stalin.