Torture and Atheist Morality

Pinocchio's Hoof said:
O.K. how about if a successful muslim owned buisness in america making clothes is approached by the government and told 40% of the clothes you make will now be U.S. military uniform's, if the owner turns round and says no I will not make these uniform's I want no part of this I am a muslim not an american, how would he expect to be treated,and as ethnic's employ ethnic's how would his employee's be treated, how would redneck's react
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Could you give me some sort of reference. What are you basing this idea on? A link. I feel I am chasing a phantom here. Let me read some of your source material and see what your concern is.

As far as the situation above, in the US that business owner is perfectly within his rights. Certainly some rednecks would get upset. Some of them are upset that the Muslim business owner exists in the first place. I am not sure we need to learn lessons from how the rednecks might react. I am quite sure that other, even racist, business owners, 'white' ones, would defend that Muslim business owners right to refuse, even while gnashing their teeth.

If I read your argument above I could see it being used against, for example, the Civil Rights movement.
 
sowhatifit'sdark said:
Should 'we' if 'we' are Americans, jewish, italian, afro american, whatever. Pick any group. Should 'we' only support Bush's wars and future wars to prevent our group from being herded into gas chambers? Is that a lesson we should learn?
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yeah I tried to give an analogy to what I was trying to say, about how ecconomicaly the german ethnic jewish leaders, fueled anti-semetic action by refusing to financialy support the war machine but the grounds given were because they were jewish and not german?
I think you know what I tried to say about the Iraqi was an analogy, as was the muslim buisness bit, what treatment would you expect from extremist's in both situations?.
And no matter what religion,colour or faith you are and whether you support bush or not, you have no choice in the decision's of the government and are at war like it or not, so what would the government do if one group of people say all the mexicans decided we are not paying taxes etc because we do not support the war, would they not be imprisoned and or extradited back to mexico.

IT is an analogy the buisness bit? to bring to modern day a similar possible occurance that could fuel hatred of similar magnitude
 
I understood the analogy. I am wondering about how correct you are about what happened in Germany. So I was asking for literal links to historical information that would back up your thesis.

I have three problems with what you have said
1) I am not sure it is historically accurate
2) I am not sure what you are saying was causal or contributed to German treatment of Jews actually did that
3) I am skeptical about the 'lessons' we can draw from these things.

I thought it might be good to start at the root. Did what you say happened happen?
 
sowhatifit'sdark said:
I understood the analogy. I am wondering about how correct you are about what happened in Germany. So I was asking for literal links to historical information that would back up your thesis.

I have three problems with what you have said
1) I am not sure it is historically accurate
2) I am not sure what you are saying was causal or contributed to German treatment of Jews actually did that
3) I am skeptical about the 'lessons' we can draw from these things.

I thought it might be good to start at the root. Did what you say happened happen?
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I'm having trouble remembering the literature i read,1 book I think it was " the demonisation of hitler" but cannot remember the author, it goes into the obsession in portraying hitler as such a monster has taken over accuracies and accounts of taught facts.

1)as accurate as i have read and interperated
2)it was just a factor of what happened
3)no point should be overlooked if we are to learn lessons in prevention of genocide.

I'm reading at the momment "new diasporas" by nicholas van hear.
QUOTE .gives a perspective on the social,economic, and political implications of migration/forced migration worldwide.synthesizing approaches to both 'economic' and 'forced migration', up to now largely insulated from each other.
It sees problems on both sides v.v interesting.
I don't realy read many documents on the net , i'm a book feind.
I will look if i find any will let you know, but read the book i'm in now you might be able to see that my standing on this is that of neutral humanitarian.
I can talk to u about enforced ethnic migration but not too much about ww2 i'm afraid.
i think we are off thread though?
 
You called it Pinocchios hoof! Religion is pointless to the fact of morality. Being religous dosen't make you good or bad. My brother worked hard all his life up until the day he died. Half of the city i live in was literaly crushed by the fact the he died becuase he did what he cuald for who he could. He wasn't religous at all. But the church that did his girl friend wen't to called him a saint. And being Athiest dosen't make you change from good to bad. If anyone can remember the Crusades....... YAH!!! That's just one example of how religion can go bad! And another is WW2.
 
I am an atheist. Even though I enjoy torturing people, I occasionly don't. Which is more than I can say for the ones who would rather see people live lives of quiet desperation as their loved ones are marched to hell than to confess that mabye that is not the case.
 
heavyarms said:
You called it Pinocchios hoof! Religion is pointless to the fact of morality. Being religous dosen't make you good or bad. My brother worked hard all his life up until the day he died. Half of the city i live in was literaly crushed by the fact the he died becuase he did what he cuald for who he could. He wasn't religous at all. But the church that did his girl friend wen't to called him a saint. And being Athiest dosen't make you change from good to bad. If anyone can remember the Crusades....... YAH!!! That's just one example of how religion can go bad! And another is WW2.
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:bravo:
I hope that in the future religion will be confined to the home, family and place of worship only, there is no place in public society anymore for religon outside of their own religious circles (all religion is cult).For those that have woken up to the misinterpretation of the jewish book and can see the history of the books and writers it's like watching adults still believing in santa/ST nick/papa xmas.

Nothing positive has come from religion to the massses, only to the individual.
 
I agree, to a single family religion can guide them to a sence of well being and give them hope for the future. But to the masses it dose nothing but interfere with the advancement of society. And to tell you the truth when you have an entire race of people who are willing to kill themselfs and others becuase there god told them too than this can only lead to the death and destruction of humankind. And more importantlythe killing of innocence. To abosolutly honest I find religion to have no authority over what common people like pinnochio or to believe. Becuase in the long run you'll find that we are write. But the diferance between me and church is won't tell you that you have to believe or your going to hell. After my brother died my nephew was forced into sunday school at a chatholic church. My brother would never want that but if I say something I'll never get to see my nephew again. And thats becuase of sister-in-laws chatholic mother. How would you feel!?
 
heavyarms said:
I agree, to a single family religion can guide them to a sence of well being and give them hope for the future. But to the masses it dose nothing but interfere with the advancement of society. And to tell you the truth when you have an entire race of people who are willing to kill themselfs and others becuase there god told them too than this can only lead to the death and destruction of humankind. !?
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:bravo:
 
Atheists continuously insist that they have a sense of Morality. Well, yes, a sense. They remember the difference between good and evil. However, there is nothing outside of law and peer pressure that could enforce this sense of morality into any action that could inconvenience an Atheist. They are willing to do good as long as it is conducive to their self interest
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I didn't instantly have issue with this; humans are, (not just atheists my dear little Leo), selfish by nature and have to be. It is imperative to survival. From here your rant quickly descends into some personal tyrade against atheists..

Cheating on taxes, cheating on tests, cheating on their wives. Competition in the workplace – screwing people over on the excuse that the rules are the same for everybody – not finding a problem with making real life into some kind of a child’s game.
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This is not an atheist issue, it is an everyone issue. People do it, (the key word is "people", Leo).

That's "people", Leo. Atheists, theists, chess players, tarot card readers and so on. If you think it's an 'atheist' thing then I would politely submit that you're an idiot.
 
You got that damn right snakelord! But it's not so much that it's to survival....... Well it is but it is it isn't. But that's not the point! The point is that athiest anrn't the first to do evil in fact through out histery when ever a war started it was allways the church that gave the excuse for the war......... OOOH, that country has a lot of arab nonbelievers of christ they should be destroyed! That's not the way things should be. And being an athiest myself I can look at the whole picture without prejudice. Becuase if god where real he sure as hell wouldn't want that shit let alone the killing in his name! And I'm sure that snakelord, pinocchio's hoof, and evey other athiest and true god lover would agree in that. And on the other hand religion shouldn't depict that there is only one god and you must believe in it. In fact I have a friend from way back that's not only
bhudist (or how ever the hell you spell it) but he's alsochristan and he dose go to church..... And temple. But that's because bhudists don't believe in only one thing.
 
heavyarms said:
You got that damn right snakelord! But it's not so much that it's to survival....... Well it is but it is it isn't. But that's not the point! The point is that athiest anrn't the first to do evil in fact through out histery when ever a war started it was allways the church that gave the excuse for the war......... OOOH, that country has a lot of arab nonbelievers of christ they should be destroyed! That's not the way things should be. And being an athiest myself I can look at the whole picture without prejudice. Becuase if god where real he sure as hell wouldn't want that shit let alone the killing in his name! And I'm sure that snakelord, pinocchio's hoof, and evey other athiest and true god lover would agree in that. And on the other hand religion shouldn't depict that there is only one god and you must believe in it. In fact I have a friend from way back that's not only
bhudist (or how ever the hell you spell it) but he's alsochristan and he dose go to church..... And temple. But that's because bhudists don't believe in only one thing.
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And after that paragraph, it's quite easily concluded you don't know stuff about religion.
 
I feel sorry for you Trip! If you truely think that there is one religion than your an idiot to believe that! So the future gose on and your still stuck in the past crouched in a fetal position in a dark corner praying to you singular god for solvation. Where the rest of the world passes you by. I know what it feels like because I refuse to ever fire a gun at some one. I will live by the sword and die by it. And many have said that society has grown out of the use of swords. But in the 10 years that I have used a sword in training and practice that's the only thing I can count on. But for you religios fanatics can you honestly say your god will protect you from the darkness like my skills and sword will protect me!?
 
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