To Theists: Why do you value hope more than truth?

You claim to have logical dreams. I'm sceptical of this, but since we have no way of objectively observing anothers subjective experience I can't out right say that you don't.

Actually, I am under the impression that this is common. As admitted, yes.. I do have strange, illogically formatted dreams as well, but consider it quite normal to have logically formatted dreams.

My counterpoint to this would be that her experience closely matches other peoples NDEs even though they weren't anaesthesized, are we to assume they we're relaxed as well? Are we then to assume that anytime anyone is in "trauma or near death" they are in a relaxed state? That hardly seems likely to me.

On the surface it wouldn't seem likely that the victim of a horrendous accident would be in a 'relaxed state' but it's worth perhaps looking deeper. Some guy barely conscious, a lot of blood lost - a dropped temperature. Ultimately I would consider that as 'relaxed' as one can get. Funnily enough people in such a position are generally encouraged to 'not go to sleep' etc because they'll most likely die. The unrelaxed people, (those screaming/aware of their surroundings etc), are usually the ones that survive.

Which doesn't mesh well with the "relaxed state/logical dream" hypothesis.

I meant after the experience, not during it.

one argument against is NDEs is that they are an epiphenomenon of the brain being starved of oxygen. If that is the case we would expect them to happen to sceptics and believers equally. And if that is the case we would expect reports from sceptics that have had these experiences, critically analyze them, find them flawed, and proclaim them bullshit after having themselves had the experience.

Who does that? Even the most skeptical of people still shit themselves when in a 'haunted house' and will often yell "ghost" even when they know it's bullshit. If such a thing happened to me I might possibly yell the same thing. Looking back at the event I can then deduce that it was my mind playing tricks etc. I am at that stage quite unlikely to phone the papers about it. "Is this the Daily Mirror? Yeah hi, I thought I saw a ghost last month but now I think about it it was bullshit".

This doesn't seem to happen though, people seem to regard the experience as authentic after having it, and if it is biological that means sceptics are just as likely to have it.

Using how many cases out of how many cases? I do know that if I ever have an nde and retain my sense of reasoning then I wouldn't consider it some vision of a future life or whatever. I also wouldn't phone the newspapers just to tell them all nde's are bullshit. Who would?

You seem to be saying as a rule of thumb the patient will not see the operating tools though, right?

Typically the tools will be covered, yes. Dentists however never do that.. bastards :D

So she was on the anaesthetic, with her ears plugged, having a "logical dream" and she heard the nurses make this comment about her veins even though she shouldn't be conscious at all because she was technically dead with all the blood drained from her brain?

Just to remain accurate: At the time the nurse made the comment she was alive and no blood had been drained - because, as the nurse said, her veins were a problem.

Secondly, (from the wiki page): Ear plugs do not block all external sounds. People with ear plugs may still be able to hear sounds in their environment.

The third part is the anaesthetic. To suggest that the anaesthetic wasn't functioning perfectly is certainly a more logical step than to suggest some ghostly part of her was clinging to the ceiling.

She had seen the drill before the operation even though thats not standard procedure

You seem to regard that as entirely illogical while what.. advocating that a ghostly part of her was floating round the room?

There are a couple of reason of which that is the most pertinent - of course you could also look at old memory resurfacing because of knowledge about the procedure. It is standard for doctors to explain big procedures to the patient before they undergo them. It will entail something like: "first we use a [insert tool name here] to open up a piece of the skull....". This woman would therefore most likely be aware of what procedures would happen and when and the tools used to carry them out.

she then forgot she saw the drill and during her "logical dream" due to her "relaxed state" caused by the anaethesia she saw the drill even though she's not supposed to be experiencing any thing at all because she is tecnically dead and has had the blood drained from her brain.

You would need to establish that the dream occurred during death.

The doctor hid the fact that she had seen the drill and put his professional reputation on the line by writing a book claiming she saw the drill while she was dead instead of just pointing out to her she had seen the drill before the operation.

I wouldn't say "hid" as much as not aware of it. When you conduct procedures day in day out you're unlikely to remember such trivial details - especially when working under the premise that the patient wont remember anything.

And that's the rational explanation of "what really happened"?

Well to be honest I'd prefer to look at these possibilities before asserting that the womans ghost was clinging to the ceiling and then went off to have lunch with uncle Bob who's also dead but now lives in the clouds.
 
Kenny don't try and back track. It's intellectually dishonest. You said: "Taking peer reviewed science for it's word is anything but faith - it is a proven procedure and probably the best tool for knowledge man has created." When I pointed out that Stevenson was published in peer-reviewed journals you tried to back track.

I can't let you get away with that. Especially since I've already made a post(s) in the past which absolve me of that, since I have repeated the very same point (but better articulated) in another thread and so can not be accused of backtracking.

Can't find that post in question. Maybe you could, or I will recite it from memory instead:

field research -> writing paper detailing research -> peer review -> consensus reached on presented evidence -> textbooks -> science classroom.

I think I then stated in the same post that this was the best tool that man has developed for knowledge as it is as flawless as it can get. The fact that I stated in this particular thread (Why do you value hope more than truth) that peer review is the best tool for knowledge is nothing but an articulation error on my part, when what I meant was the scientific process from start to finish.

And so I will repeat: If any of your edorsed metaphysical claims reaches textbooks in a scientific classroom, I will eat my words. That is my pledge.
 
if the futility of the stance of atheism gets quashed by something, what of you?
Ha! The thing you continually miss is that if solid scientific evidence (that means repeatably demonstrable with predictive value) was available that your god thingy was real, we'd be right there, learning about it! Terrified, yes(!) (the god of the bible? What a monster!), but not hiding in ignorant denial.

You on the other hand are awash in an ocean of evidence that shows no such thing, other than in your subjective imagination!

How hilarious is that?
 
I can't let you get away with that....
What's also hilarious is this. We use faith generally in an accusatory way - i.e. religious faith is about as intellectually dishonest as you can be. Theists of course love and rely on faith from first principles. Yet theists will then make posts saying how "faith based" our science and understanding of the universe is in the same accusatory way!

Theists are so fucking confused by even their own internal dichotomy that it comes out in all sorts of subtle and unsubtle ways. No wonder an atheist can state his/her stance in a sentence or two while it takes a theist entire rambling books that end up more confusing than they started.

Hilarious.
 
field research -> writing paper detailing research -> peer review -> consensus reached on presented evidence -> textbooks -> science classroom.

Or science as it exists in Kenny's world:

field research -> writing paper detailing research -> peer review -> doesn't fit in with Kenny's worldview -> science dismissed

Science in your world and that of the Christian Fundamentalist are remarkably similar?

field research -> writing paper detailing research -> peer review -> doesn't fit in with Bible -> science dismissed
 
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Well to be honest I'd prefer to look at these possibilities before asserting that the womans ghost was clinging to the ceiling and then went off to have lunch with uncle Bob who's also dead but now lives in the clouds.

I agree that these possibilities should be considered as well.
 
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Or science as it exists in Kenny's world:

field research -> writing paper detailing research -> peer review -> doesn't in with Kenny's worldview -> science dismissed

Believe it or not I don't decide what makes it to the science classroom.
 
What's also hilarious is this. We use faith generally in an accusatory way - i.e. religious faith is about as intellectually dishonest as you can be. Theists of course love and rely on faith from first principles. Yet theists will then make posts saying how "faith based" our science and understanding of the universe is in the same accusatory way!

Theists are so fucking confused by even their own internal dichotomy that it comes out in all sorts of subtle and unsubtle ways. No wonder an atheist can state his/her stance in a sentence or two while it takes a theist entire rambling books that end up more confusing than they started.

Hilarious.

I was actually accusing Kenny of only accepting science when it agrees with his worldview and dismissing it when it doesn't (same thing Christian Fundamentalists do when it comes to evolution).

Hilarious.
 
I was actually accusing Kenny of only accepting science when it agrees with his worldview and dismissing it when it doesn't (same thing Christian Fundamentalists do when it comes to evolution).

Hilarious.

What science in a school textbook do I disagree with? Anything that makes it that far, has unquestionable merits. That goes too for the paranormal (if it ever makes it that far).
 
Well Kenny you can create any arbitrary standards you want for yourself. I just get suspicious when first you say that "peer-reviewed science is probably the best tool for knowledge man has created" and then when you see some peer-reviewed science that doesn't fit in with your worldview you suddenly change the standard to "school textbook."

I'm just wondering, do other atheists agree with Kenny that "school textbook" is the gold standard of scientific knowledge?
 
Well Kenny you can create any arbitrary standards you want for yourself. I just get suspicious when first you say that "peer-reviewed science is probably the best tool for knowledge man has created" and then when you see some peer-reviewed science that doesn't fit in with your worldview you suddenly change the standard to "school textbook."

Found it:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1178775#post1178775

In case you're wondering why I was using a sock puppet, people I know in real life googled me and traced me to several websites which I didn't appreciate, and so I made a sock puppet for each of my regular websites, that lasted several weeks.

The slide Ken miller showed which explained different stages of the scientific method made a lasting impression on me, even if I did know the procedures before that, it's main point was to show how mystics don't want to follow that same procedure that genuine scientific claims follow.

Of course I know his research on reincarnation was peer reviewed, just like Michael Behe's evidence of I.D. was peer reviewed, but neither succeeded in scientific consensus and wasn't accepted into our schools, colleges, universities science classes.
 
Crunchy Cat
(sigh) there are foundations for all knowledge - if these foundations get upturned then the people who advocate them go with it - some people's foundation for understanding god lies in having a trauma free material life (thus the experience of trauma is sufficient to upset their world view), for others, myself included, it lies in certain philosophical foundations, such as the living entity being completely dependent on god in all states of liberated or conditioned life (thus the prospect of abiogenesis is a fertile imagination)

Arrrrgh! Ok, ok, the answer is that you would end up in a mental institution. I get it.

perhaps for an atheist the foundation for their knowledge is that there is no life after death - if that foundation gets upturned (like say a few moments after they die) they will most likely readapt their world view (or adopt a state of insanity)

I suspect that for most atheists, such an upturn would simply result in them following the truth.

so there you go - between the lips and teacup many things can happen
;)

wisdom by hindsight is not such a rare achievement

Have you every been approached by fortune cookie manufacturers?

maybe something like animal society then?

What kind of animals?
 
Originally Posted by Adstar
The evil horde will be taken care of by the returning messiah Jesus and those that accompany Him upon his return. There is not need to pick up any gun and blaze at anyone.

God has the future under control.


If Jesus was an omnipotent life form, why the heck would he need an army?

Who says He needs the Army? But if he chooses to use one then that is up to Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Who says He needs the Army? But if he chooses to use one then that is up to Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Is it a personal thing? Would it be 'God' saying "Satan, I am gonna kick your butt with my omnipotence tied behind my back!"?
 
What if the new system was truly original and was found flawless? Would you invest your hope in it or would you remain hopeless for the rest of your days?

You’re asking me hypothetical questions that i cannot answer.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Cruchy cat

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Crunchy Cat
(sigh) there are foundations for all knowledge - if these foundations get upturned then the people who advocate them go with it - some people's foundation for understanding god lies in having a trauma free material life (thus the experience of trauma is sufficient to upset their world view), for others, myself included, it lies in certain philosophical foundations, such as the living entity being completely dependent on god in all states of liberated or conditioned life (thus the prospect of abiogenesis is a fertile imagination)

Arrrrgh! Ok, ok, the answer is that you would end up in a mental institution. I get it.
its not clear what answer you are after - I have already said that if science could reconstruct life from inert matter it would be sufficient amongst theists with a philosophical foundation to completely reconsider the nature of god in the universe - what more are you after?

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
perhaps for an atheist the foundation for their knowledge is that there is no life after death - if that foundation gets upturned (like say a few moments after they die) they will most likely readapt their world view (or adopt a state of insanity)

I suspect that for most atheists, such an upturn would simply result in them following the truth.
depends how emotional they find the whole ordeal

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
so there you go - between the lips and teacup many things can happen


wisdom by hindsight is not such a rare achievement

Have you every been approached by fortune cookie manufacturers?
given your apparent ability to recognize patterns and intimate understanding of computer technology, perhaps you could start up a special line of AI fortune cookies to bolster the confidence of your colleagues
:p

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
maybe something like animal society then?

What kind of animals?
any animal society, since the divisions they draw up amongst themselves have nothing to do with god or atheism
 
Found it:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1178775#post1178775

In case you're wondering why I was using a sock puppet, people I know in real life googled me and traced me to several websites which I didn't appreciate, and so I made a sock puppet for each of my regular websites, that lasted several weeks.

The slide Ken miller showed which explained different stages of the scientific method made a lasting impression on me, even if I did know the procedures before that, it's main point was to show how mystics don't want to follow that same procedure that genuine scientific claims follow.
1) Kenny, there is a world of difference between the claims of I.D. proponents and the claims of mystics, to lump these two groups together is not valid in my opinion.

2) If you will notice in the Ken Miller diagram the problem with ID propoents is that they want to skip over all the actual science in the middle and skip straight from theory to textbook with nothing in between.

Evolution:

Novel Scientific Claim > Research > Peer Review > Scientific Consensus > Classroom & Textbook

ID/Creationism

ID theory > .... Classroom & Textbooks

Ian Stevenson has done the science in the middle (Novel Scientific Claim > Research > Peer Review).

Of course I know his research on reincarnation was peer reviewed, just like Michael Behe's evidence of I.D. was peer reviewed, but neither succeeded in scientific consensus and wasn't accepted into our schools, colleges, universities science classes.
Kenny, don't make blatantly false commments like this. Intelliegint Design is not science, Behe can do no actual scientific investigation to support his thesis. Take another look at the Ken Miller diagram - do you notice how research and peer-review is missing? That's the entire point.

Ken Millers entire argument is specifically about the ID debate(not science in general) because the whole purpose of ID proponents was to make it so that ID could be taught to school age children. The IDers had that as their specific agenda. Stevenson didn't really have an agenda like this - he found a strange phenomenon (children with past live memories) and investigated it objectivel and then presented his findings.

What's really intersting is you think that just because Stevenson's findings are controversial that means they are not true. How controversial do you think Darwin's findings were when they first came out?
 
What science in a school textbook do I disagree with? Anything that makes it that far, has unquestionable merits. That goes too for the paranormal (if it ever makes it that far).

Kenny, by these standards you would have been one of the people arguing againsts Darwin when he first presented his findings.
 
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