To Theists: Why do you value hope more than truth?

[Adstar]

Insult to whom?

It's my assertion that 'shrooms of various types enhance ones ability to communicate with god. That's all. What's the problem?

If that is your assertion then you must now believe in God. Because to make such an assertion you must now be a Theist.

So now superluminal if you are telling the truth in this assertion you have just made then you must believe in God. Or are you trying to cover a lie with another clearer lie?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[superluminal]

We can call it a hypocrisy detection test.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It's only hypocrisy if I say one thing and do another. I've told you that I'm an atheistic ass and everything I say to you regarding god should be viewed as insulting.

Now, let's just be clear here. I will never insult you directly. I've already got a current infraction for calling lightgigantic an asshat (which I sincerely apologise for).

But the use of irony, sarcasm, and wit are not (I hope) subject to infractions. I could find at least a dozen posts in the past few days where our esteemed moderator has used derogatory terms to describe the mindless belief in some god thingy.

 

[superluminal]

Oh boy. Our bickering has been deleted.

 

[lightgigantic]

Crunchy cat
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I see – in that case I guess nothing would change, since I would still operate on the principle of placing my experiences in a philosophical context
”
Why choose a philisophical context?

Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic)

the moment one has statements of truth one has philosophy - even in the case of perceiving god in the sun beams off a garage door (hence you have good philosophy and bad philosophy)

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
its commonly seen that the truth (wherever it may arise) is often surmounted by things such as lust, greed, arrogance, envy, wrath, etc etc – to determine the likelihood of pursuing the truth in the given next life, it would be sufficient to note how one deals with lust, greed, envy, etc when it crops up in this life
(are you saying that the central foundation of atheism is the clear identification of things like lust, wrath, envy etc and the advocation of means to surmount these faults of character when they arise?)
”
lust, greed, etc. often arise in the presence of truth when truth is not near the top of the value chain.

truth is always at the top of the value chain (even if the truth is unpleasant, we tend to prefer it since it has the ability to win out with the facts - of course what an individual may hope or believe to be true is a separate issue)

the problem is that truth can be subverted by lust,wrath, etc

even in the case of science (Thomas Edison appears to have let a few personal interests influence him in his career)

I suspect that many (if not most) atheists value truth exceptionally high.

not just atheists - everyone
the question is whether they also have identified what threatens to usurp such an ideal, namely the parallel course of lust, wrath, greed, etc

To answer your question, atheism has no central foundation other than not to accept the statement "'God' exists" as true;

and how would that deal specifically with the situation of lust, etc influencing perception

however, my experience with atheists shows they have a much better ability to identify and define phenomena (objective, subjective, and absence).

I also have personal experience to the contrary - hence I don't feel such things warrant much in discussions

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
that’s a good one for your cookie line
Do you have any more?
”
"Help I'm trapped in a cookie factory with LG!"

at least you won't starve to death

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
you find the notion of an existence where there is no agency of appeal or protection against being eaten alive by dogs and jackals as more appealing than what you have already?

as for sexual behavior


Reports show that there is no precopulatory display; the male fights with the female until she submits to him and copulation begins.
”
Go watch "Meekat Manor" and see how the reality aligns to what you have stated.

I pulled it from Wiki - (from what i have seen of Meekat Manor, it certainly appears that they are on the look out from predators)
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
... I leave it up to you to discern whether it is an improvement or a greater inconvenience or completely identical to your current experiences as a human

”
I am not the one claiming we'd live like "animals" (even though technically humans are animals and we are living)... but on a sidenote, did you know that there are truckloads of humans who enjoy pretending to look and act like other animals?

what exactly do you mean?

I wonder what you think of such people (and I suspect most are theists)?

I don't know whether these guys are religious or not

 

[lightgigantic]

LG, is this why you would choose to always use a philsophical context to invest your hope... so you don't end up investing it in sunbeams hitting a garage door?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=450_1188520073

unless its my philosophy to count the number of double chins a speaker has to discern the truth of their words

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy cat
Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic)

the moment one has statements of truth one has philosophy - even in the case of perceiving god in the sun beams off a garage door (hence you have good philosophy and bad philosophy)

I see. Philosophy is concerned with loads of perceived unresolved questions (regardless of whether the questions are relevant) and that unresolved status is why you would continue to place your hope in philosophy. What if science answered all the philisophical questions you cared about and they were all dull, boring, mundane, without even a hint of paranormal. What do you do with your hope then?

truth is always at the top of the value chain (even if the truth is unpleasant, we tend to prefer it since it has the ability to win out with the facts - of course what an individual may hope or believe to be true is a separate issue)

the problem is that truth can be subverted by lust,wrath, etc

even in the case of science (Thomas Edison appears to have let a few personal interests influence him in his career)

I have seen alot of evidence that most people place their psychological needs before truth.

not just atheists - everyone
the question is whether they also have identified what threatens to usurp such an ideal, namely the parallel course of lust, wrath, greed, etc

I disagree. Most people issue high-stakes claims of truth which do not stand up to the reality test. Lying shows that truth is not at the top of the value chain.

and how would that deal specifically with the situation of lust, etc influencing perception

To become an atheist (for the most common reason) in a theistically dominant world where humans are genetically inclined to believe and fantasize is a feat that requires a deeper understanding of how values impact emotions and how emotions impact perception. It is a form of education come to think about it.

I also have personal experience to the contrary - hence I don't feel such things warrant much in discussions

It would be an interesting experiment to take a group of atheists and theists whom were at the beginning of their higher education, show them odd objective phenomena, and see which group could break things out and provide the best definition.

at least you won't starve to death

Not physically anway.

I pulled it from Wiki - (from what i have seen of Meekat Manor, it certainly appears that they are on the look out from predators)
“

Did it explain how they handle predators?

what exactly do you mean?

I don't know whether these guys are religious or not

I think those are props. I am talking about this phenomena:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/44090/the_leopard_man/

 

[Oli]

According to God's inspired Word, the bible, God speaks to men in dreams.

So you're using a dream to validate a book that says the book is validated by dreams?

Now, if you are in some kind of discipline or training that can't accept that as real, then you are cut off from one of the communication lines that God uses because of bad training.

Discipline or training?
Hmmm, real world count?

Being overly skeptical can keep someone away from the truth just as easily as being not skeptical enough can keep someone away from the truth.

Using your "experimental proof" suppose someone asked god to show himself (the way you did) and got no answer: by your logic that's proof he doesn't exist, surely?

You want some kind of proof of demons. If you ever try to become a real Christian that believes in Jesus, repents of sin, and reads the bible, you will surely notice demons trying to fight you to turn you away from being a Christian. If the devils arlready have you in there sphere of influence, they won't fight with you. Try to break free from them and see how they will fight you. The battle field is the mind. They have telepathic contact to men's minds.

So to believe in non-existent demons (with non-existent telepathy) I have to first believe in a non-existent god?

Why is it that people take the name of God, or Jesus, or Lord in vain using those words as swear words all day long? It is not logical for men to do that. It is evidence of the control that devils have over people's thoughts. Devil's want them to disobey the Bible and take God's name in vain.

Nope it's evidence that they're in a bad mood.

 

[ghost7584]

So you're using a dream to validate a book that says the book is validated by dreams?


Discipline or training?
Hmmm, real world count?


Using your "experimental proof" suppose someone asked god to show himself (the way you did) and got no answer: by your logic that's proof he doesn't exist, surely?


So to believe in non-existent demons (with non-existent telepathy) I have to first believe in a non-existent god?


Nope it's evidence that they're in a bad mood.

I realize that many of the wise in the things of this world are hard to persuade about God's existence. The bible plainly says that.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Don't try to hide behind science to support atheism.
Isaac Newton the founder of physics (voted by scientists to be the greatist scientist of all time) was a Christian believer and a bible scholar. He wrote several treatises on the Bible. He believed God created the principles that he discovered.
So was George Washington Carver that developed a whole type of scientific technology himself.- He was Christian believer.

Book on Newton:
Manuel, Frank E. The Religion of Isaac Newton . Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1974. ISBN 0-19-826640-5.

"About the time of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist on their literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition."
--Sir Isaac Newton

PS. YOU will bow the knee. Wait and see.

 

[SnakeLord]

Don't try to hide behind science to support atheism.

Nobody is hiding anywhere. Most atheists would happily believe in a god if only some evidence could be provided for its existence. Don't blame them for your inability to do so.

Isaac Newton the founder of physics (voted by scientists to be the greatist scientist of all time) was a Christian believer and a bible scholar. He wrote several treatises on the Bible. He believed God created the principles that he discovered.
So was George Washington Carver that developed a whole type of scientific technology himself.- He was Christian believer.

Argumentum ad verecundiam.

 

[lightgigantic]

“ Crunchy cat

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Crunchy cat
Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic)

the moment one has statements of truth one has philosophy - even in the case of perceiving god in the sun beams off a garage door (hence you have good philosophy and bad philosophy) ”
I see. Philosophy is concerned with loads of perceived unresolved questions (regardless of whether the questions are relevant) and that unresolved status is why you would continue to place your hope in philosophy.

(actually the first para was a wiki quote)
I think you misunderstand – the very moment you have statements of “this is true/real” is the moment you have philosophy

What if science answered all the philisophical questions you cared about and they were all dull, boring, mundane, without even a hint of paranormal. What do you do with your hope then?

it would probably be a situation not dissimilar from you experiencing your self still existing after having died

“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
truth is always at the top of the value chain (even if the truth is unpleasant, we tend to prefer it since it has the ability to win out with the facts - of course what an individual may hope or believe to be true is a separate issue)

the problem is that truth can be subverted by lust,wrath, etc

even in the case of science (Thomas Edison appears to have let a few personal interests influence him in his career) ”
I have seen alot of evidence that most people place their psychological needs before truth.

then why do people attempt to tell lies that sound truthful?
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
not just atheists - everyone
the question is whether they also have identified what threatens to usurp such an ideal, namely the parallel course of lust, wrath, greed, etc ”
I disagree. Most people issue high-stakes claims of truth which do not stand up to the reality test. Lying shows that truth is not at the top of the value chain.

and what exactly is this “reality test” you are referring to? (yes, it will require you discuss philosophy)
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
and how would that deal specifically with the situation of lust, etc influencing perception ”
To become an atheist (for the most common reason) in a theistically dominant world where humans are genetically inclined to believe and fantasize is a feat that requires a deeper understanding of how values impact emotions and how emotions impact perception. It is a form of education come to think about it.

now you have to call on philosophy to explain why all these hapless souls are caught up in the machinations of fantasizing while you remain some how aloof from it – a good starting point might be explaining how you deal with issues like selfishness, pride, lust etc
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I also have personal experience to the contrary - hence I don't feel such things warrant much in discussions ”
It would be an interesting experiment to take a group of atheists and theists whom were at the beginning of their higher education, show them odd objective phenomena, and see which group could break things out and provide the best definition.

yes it would
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
at least you won't starve to death ”
Not physically anway.

not spiritually either -lol
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I pulled it from Wiki - (from what i have seen of Meekat Manor, it certainly appears that they are on the look out from predators)
“ ”
Did it explain how they handle predators?

no - I guess I should have done my research properly and said snakes and eagles and hawks.
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
what exactly do you mean?

I don't know whether these guys are religious or not ”
I think those are props. I am talking about this phenomena:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/44090/the_leopard_man/

lol - certainly gets the prize for the world’s most pathetic leopard

how does this relate to the issue at hand

“did you know that there are truckloads of humans who enjoy pretending to look and act like other animals? I wonder what you think of such people (and I suspect most are theists)?”

Truckloads?
Maybe we don’t get around in the same neighborhood ....
(still curious about why you suspect theism has anything to do with the means eccentric people adopt to cultivate distinction)

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

“
Don't try to hide behind science to support atheism.
”
Nobody is hiding anywhere. Most atheists would happily believe in a god if only some evidence could be provided for its existence. Don't blame them for your inability to do so.

the next question is why atheists don't share an equal willingness to become qualified .....

 

[Crunchy Cat]

“ Crunchy cat


(actually the first para was a wiki quote)
I think you misunderstand – the very moment you have statements of “this is true/real” is the moment you have philosophy

Can philosophy ever make an assertion of truth and be incorrect?

it would probably be a situation not dissimilar from you experiencing your self still existing after having died

Without being able to invest your hope philisophically at that point, where would you invest it?

“
then why do people attempt to tell lies that sound truthful?
“

Because the lies are attractive, hopeful, desireable, consoling, etc. In other words, the provide for psychological need.

and what exactly is this “reality test” you are referring to? (yes, it will require you discuss philosophy)

The reality test is the answer to the question "Does reality agree?". For example, take the assertion "fire will burn you". Is the assertion falsifiable? Are the results predictable? Are the results repeatable? Are the results consistent? Are the results non-contradictory?

“
now you have to call on philosophy to explain why all these hapless souls are caught up in the machinations of fantasizing while you remain some how aloof from it – a good starting point might be explaining how you deal with issues like selfishness, pride, lust etc
“

I don't have a good answer to the question; however, I suspect that overall education, intelligence, and experience with seperating the subjective from the objective might be a big part of it.

“
not spiritually either -lol
“

Aw jeez, there is a hell afterall

no - I guess I should have done my research properly and said snakes and eagles and hawks.
“

Aside from having lookouts and early predator warning systems, they will pro-actively attack predators in large groups. They will even come to each others rescue and they create multiple shelters across their territory so groups can escape arial attacks which they cannot defend against. They even tend to their wounded. Pretty cool for little critters.

lol - certainly gets the prize for the world’s most pathetic leopard

how does this relate to the issue at hand

Yeah, that is probably the worlds most pathetic leopard... but then again he / it likes beer so thats a plus. It relates to the issue because in the absence of hope you stated that people would live like other animals and that appears be an aspiration of people already. Do you find it interesting that that fella is happy and has everything he wants in life?

Truckloads?
Maybe we don’t get around in the same neighborhood ....
(still curious about why you suspect theism has anything to do with the means eccentric people adopt to cultivate distinction)

Yes, truckloads and they have quitely infested Western civilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom

Most of them are theists. I am curious what you think about this?

 

[lightgigantic]

“ Crunchy cat

(actually the first para was a wiki quote)
I think you misunderstand – the very moment you have statements of “this is true/real” is the moment you have philosophy
”
Can philosophy ever make an assertion of truth and be incorrect?

certainly

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
it would probably be a situation not dissimilar from you experiencing your self still existing after having died
”
Without being able to invest your hope philisophically at that point, where would you invest it?

from the scenario I just gave you, you could probably answer the question yourself ....

“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
“
then why do people attempt to tell lies that sound truthful?
“
”
Because the lies are attractive, hopeful, desireable, consoling, etc.

Only if they sound truthful

In other words, the provide for psychological need.

yes, all by wearing the cloak of truthfulness - just experiment by telling a lie that does not sound truthful in one situation and tell a lie that does sound truthful in another ....

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
and what exactly is this “reality test” you are referring to? (yes, it will require you discuss philosophy)
”
The reality test is the answer to the question "Does reality agree?". For example, take the assertion "fire will burn you". Is the assertion falsifiable? Are the results predictable? Are the results repeatable? Are the results consistent? Are the results non-contradictory?

yes - philosophy indicates the existence of an objective phenomena - it all depends on us adopting the proper means to test it (so if I say fire does not burn having done experiments with matches and candles in a bucket of water - its not deemed as sound - even if I have carried out such tests hundreds of thousands of times

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
“
now you have to call on philosophy to explain why all these hapless souls are caught up in the machinations of fantasizing while you remain some how aloof from it – a good starting point might be explaining how you deal with issues like selfishness, pride, lust etc
“
”
I don't have a good answer to the question; however, I suspect that overall education, intelligence, and experience with seperating the subjective from the objective might be a big part of it.

which is why I said a good starting point would be to explain how you deal with issues such as selfishness, pride, lust, etc, since by the influence of these and many more discerning the separations between subjective and objective is greatly impaired

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
“
not spiritually either -lol
“
”
Aw jeez, there is a hell afterall

it could be worse - at least there are cookies

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
no - I guess I should have done my research properly and said snakes and eagles and hawks.
“
”
Aside from having lookouts and early predator warning systems, they will pro-actively attack predators in large groups.

.... still they get eaten alive on occasion

They will even come to each others rescue and they create multiple shelters across their territory so groups can escape arial attacks which they cannot defend against.

so in short they lead a life of constant fear

They even tend to their wounded.

Pretty cool for little critters.

and what about the mating rituals?

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
lol - certainly gets the prize for the world’s most pathetic leopard

how does this relate to the issue at hand
”
Yeah, that is probably the worlds most pathetic leopard... but then again he / it likes beer so thats a plus. It relates to the issue because in the absence of hope you stated that people would live like other animals and that appears be an aspiration of people already.

there's a good chance that this guy was just as much an animal before he visited the dentist and the tattoo parlor - the foundation of animal life is to be completely engaged in activities of sleeping, eating, mating and defending - in other words animals don't have the capacity to be religious (of course one can take religious principles as a means of fulfilling these four animal requirements, but that says more about the nature of our materialistic/animalistic modern society than actual religious principles)

Do you find it interesting that that fella is happy and has everything he wants in life?

put it this way .....
..... it doesn't inspire me to follow in his foot prints

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Truckloads?
Maybe we don’t get around in the same neighborhood ....
(still curious about why you suspect theism has anything to do with the means eccentric people adopt to cultivate distinction)
”
Yes, truckloads and they have quitely infested Western civilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom

Most of them are theists.

I am curious what you think about this?

I don't know why you think a theist stands as more attracted to these things - I vaguely recall some demographic research on the subject and religiosity certainly didn't clock up on the charts (number one was babies and number two was baby animals)

anyway, I would say it says more about materialistic culture (idle people with idle money in their hands) than anything intrinsically religious ... and even then its still not clear why you bring this up, since people who buy cute little stuffed leopards with no genitals and big eyes are not likely to get a full body tattoo and their teeth ripped out

 

[Adstar]

It's only hypocrisy if I say one thing and do another. I've told you that I'm an atheistic ass and everything I say to you regarding god should be viewed as insulting.

Now, let's just be clear here. I will never insult you directly. I've already got a current infraction for calling lightgigantic an asshat (which I sincerely apologise for).

Your efforts at self justification are woeful. Your initial comment was an insult because it made the claim that i was taking mind altering substances to get in contact with God. That theists where magic mushroom eaters and the dreams and visions we have are just drug induced illusions.

Well i know an insult when i see one and your "joke" was no joke at all to me, It was a grave and very insulting comment against me and the Holy Spirit, who gives those dreams and visions to followers of the Messiah Jesus.

But the use of irony, sarcasm, and wit are not (I hope) subject to infractions. I could find at least a dozen posts in the past few days where our esteemed moderator has used derogatory terms to describe the mindless belief in some god thingy.

The actions of the moderator of this forum are his actions and he is responsible for them. Your actions are your actions and you are responsible for them. You cannot justify your insults because someone else in a position of authority has been throwing insults.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Oh boy. Our bickering has been deleted.

LOL See what a moderator can do to avoid taking an action that they do not want to take.

The God of Abraham is the ultimate Moderator and all actions will be braught to light when He takes action against injustice.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

PS. YOU will bow the knee. Wait and see.

Poetical and true. I love it.

 

[Oli]

I realize that many of the wise in the things of this world are hard to persuade about God's existence. The bible plainly says that.

You're using the book to support the book.
Doesn't work.

Don't try to hide behind science to support atheism.

Double standards?
You used science (badly) to support your contention.

Isaac Newton the founder of physics (voted by scientists to be the greatist scientist of all time) was a Christian believer and a bible scholar. He wrote several treatises on the Bible. He believed God created the principles that he discovered.

He was also an alchemist - maybe I should try that.
Appeal to authority, dismissed.

So was George Washington Carver that developed a whole type of scientific technology himself.- He was Christian believer.

So what - another appeal to authority.

And you didn't answer my question about getting no result from the same experiment.

PS. YOU will bow the knee. Wait and see.

Nonsense.

 

[ghost7584]

Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

[Oli]

No preaching.
What are you on about?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

LOL See what a moderator can do to avoid taking an action that they do not want to take.

The God of Abraham is the ultimate Moderator and all actions will be braught to light when He takes action against injustice.

*************
M*W: Adstar, Abraham was a polytheist just like his Terah father before him. In fact, it's been written that Terah was a high priest of polytheism.

They lived in an area that was highly, if not only, polytheistic. Abraham was the child of an Egyptian pharaoh as was Sarah. They were half-brother and sister which was their common law to retain royalty among the pharaonic dynasties. It is more likely that Abraham (if he even existed in the flesh) prayed to Allah instead of Yahweh. Of the many gods that Abraham worshipped, the sun and moon were two of the bigger gods. It is also more likely that Abraham leaned more toward Islam than Judaism. The history of Abraham as written in the Pentateuch is nothing but creative writing slanted in favor of the Jewish tradition. it simply is not true.