To Theists: Why do you value hope more than truth?

Kenny, don't make blatantly false commments like this. Intelliegint Design is not science, Behe can do no actual scientific investigation to support his thesis. Take another look at the Ken Miller diagram - do you notice how research and peer-review is missing? That's the entire point.

To a point you're right. But when there is limited evidence of something that looks like it might support one of your beliefs, you interpret the evidence one way, when there are multiple (non-paranormal) ways to explain it.

For example, I showed evidence that acupuncture was just a analgesic effect from sensory input. Other things which work in the same way is heat, electricity, or just rubbing your knee when it is sore... which has a non-mystical explanation. Also, neither did it matter where the needles were placed which I believe is an important part of the mystical practice of acupuncture, which I believe doesn't show any evidence whatsoever for chi or meridians. Asides from the above, there is also the placebo on top of that. You can't skip these logical findings and go straight to scientific consensus with the mystical practice of acupuncture works, because that isn't going to happen any time soon. This is why you reminded me of the creationist wanting to skip chunks of the scientific process.

Stevenson didn't really have an agenda like this - he found a strange phenomenon (children with past live memories) and investigated it objectivel and then presented his findings.

Well I did read that people who peer reviewed his work questioned his objectivity and called him credulous. And I believe scientists called him credulous because he was proposing a supernatural claim based fundamentally on eye witness testimony and taking for granted that the child wasn't coerced. And also, any scientific theory that expouses the paranormal as it's main explanation will never make it to consensus unless it has strong physical evidence.

What's really intersting is you think that just because Stevenson's findings are controversial that means they are not true. How controversial do you think Darwin's findings were when they first came out?

Luckily Darwin's evidence could be backed up by physical evidence. Stevenson admitted there was no possible way to obtain any physical evidence of reincarnation. The anecdotal nature of Stevenson's evidence is not going to get far in science.
 
So, I'll give a little insight into where I am going with this. We have this sub-forum on a science site in which 'God' existence is repeatedly fought for. It seems as if scientific knowledge keeps on chipping away at the validity of people's beliefs... invalidating what they might have considered 'big important questions' or what they might have considered 'correct answers'. When this happens, it seems to remove 'hope' (ex. the hope that consciousness persists after death). To compensate, such people find creatuve ways to shield their beliefs or outright embrace new ones that give them that hope. In other words... truth is taking a back-seat to hope and I want to know why.

I became a Christian not out of hope like you are saying.
As a physics student, agnostic that would argue against the existence of God in philosophy classes, I realized that the scientific method for determining truth is based on experiment. I thought up an experiment to test for the existence of God, and got definite evidence from my experiment. God exists and Christianity is the only religion He accepts.
Real Christianity defined by the King James verson New Testament.
That is the results of my experiment and some further research.
As a scientist I must allow experimental results to determine the truth.
 
I thought up an experiment to test for the existence of God, and got definite evidence from my experiment. God exists and Christianity is the only religion He accepts.
Please define the experiment.
 
Please define the experiment.

You know I think I may have posted this here years ago, not sure.
I have this in my files. Here it is.
I can't make you believe it, however.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Physics. I did a scientific experiment
to test for the
existence of God. I simply looked up to the ceiling and asked God to
give me
evidence that He really existed so that I would know and not just
believe. I did this
several times over a period of weeks or months. I assumed that if He
really did
exist, He would do this because He loved me and didn't want me to go
to hell. [That attitude is one of the experimental controls.] I
did this as a serious experiment; it's either true or it isn't. I was
an agnostic
science student at the time. Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can
heal by the
laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists. The Aura energy field around a healer's body can transmit
healing energy to the body
of the patient; this can be filmed by a technique called Kirlian
photography.
http://www.synergy-co.com/kirlian1-6.html
So the healing miracles of Jesus could be true. Later I studied UFOs
and a UFO
researcher pointed out that there are flying objects in the Bible that
are associated
with angels that look like the UFOs that people are taking photgraphs
of today.
So, Bible stories of angels could be true too. I got a book on the
occult. It said
that certain sensitive people and psychics can see into the spirit
world; they can
see little glimpses of spiritual beings that look like points of light
in the air. I
started reading the New testament to see what it said. Around this
time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from
somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts. I also started seeing little colored
flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like
visions, not
really in the physical world. I decided that this was evidence that
demons exist
and they were attacking me with evil thoughts trying to stop me from
becoming a
christian; I saw glimpses into the spirit world during these attacks
that looked like
little colored points of light in the air, like the occult book said.
Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it
seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream. I had an
overwhelming feeling during this vision like I knew that He had all
the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen. I heard His
voice
paraphrasing something written in the Bible.
He called me by my name
and said, you must die before you enter society. Unless the seed die,
the tree cannot bear good fruit. All trees that do not bear fruit,
will be cut down. He was paraphrasing this scripture in the New
Testament:
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it
bringeth forth much fruit.
This scripture goes along with these that follow it.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth
his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my
Father honour.
The interpretation is that when a man comes to Jesus for salvation, to
be saved from hell, that man must allow his old way of living to die,
and he must take on a new life of serving Jesus, so that he can bear
good fruit for the Kingdom of God.
Immediately after that I woke up. I asked God to give me proof; He
gave me
proof. I have been a fundamentalist christian ever since. If you
really want proof,
ask for it seriously, like I did. Have the idea in your mind that if
God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.
That is one of the experimental controls.
In the New Testament Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the
life. No one comes to the Father but
by Me. The only way to get to God is through Jesus Christ, all other
ways are
false.
I heard one word after another like normal speech, but when I thought
about it, all of the words seemed to have happened at the same time.
It was like time did not make any sense. His voice was like that of
any normal man, not to deep, and not too high in pitch. The words
seemed to fill my entire being as if they were put into me with real
power.
This happened to me in 1975. Jesus was coming to me in a darkened room
so I did not get a completely clear look at him. He looks similar like that guy in the passion of Christ movie, except his hair isn't parted in the middle, it goes straight across His forehead.
When He said the words, "will be cut down", the tone of His voice
changed as if He did not want to frighten me. After the words were
finished, He put His hand on my back and smiled at me and disappeared.
So that was proof that God exists and that Christianity is the only true religion.
You need to consider what type of a test I was doing. I was probing
for an answer to a question that is not bound to the physical world.
True reality as we observe it is composed of the physical world, which
is easily tested by physics and chemistry, and it is also composed of
the mental dimension, which does really exist, but not in the physical
world. [Your thoughts and desires and will do really exist, but not in
the physical world. They are connected to the physical world by your
physical body.] If God does exist, as He is described, then He is like
a universal mind or consciousness, that created everything and is in
control of everything. To test for a universal mind, I needed to do an
unusual experiment. The reason that I decided that these points of
light were evidence of demons is because of this:
The occult book that dealt with demons and spirits said that glimpses
into the Spirit world looked like points of light in the air.
And also, I would hear evil voices in my mind, threatening me and
saying the kind of things that demons would say [threats, insults
against me and God, etc...], and I heard these thoughts as if they
were coming from the points of light. As if the points of light were
appearing, saying these things to me telepathically, so that I heard
them in my mind, and then disappearing.
This was surely a phenomenon that looked to me like attacks by evil
spirits or demons. After I became a Christian I prayed to Jesus Christ
to ask Him to protect me from the attacks of demons, and the problem
went away. According to the Bible, the Devil and his demons are
controlling everyone that is not a real Christian, to a greater or
lesser degree. (Some people are completely demon possessed.) When you
try to become a Christian, you are breaking free from the demon's
control and that is when you will notice them trying to fight against
you. If Satan already has you moving in the wrong direction, he does
not need to fight you; he has already got you. Try to become a real
Christian, and try to break free from the Devil's control, then he
will start to fight against you to try to prevent you from becoming a
Christian and getting right with God. This is what the evidence
suggests that I was experiencing when I started to become a Christian,
in 1975.
Also, these points of light that I was seeing, looked like little
visions, not like a real physical phenomenon that happens in the
physical world. Therefore, I did not consider that a physical form of
energy was of any importance here. Physical energy of the sort that
physics studies, might not have been involved.
Remember, the mental dimension is real and does exist, but not in the
physical world, just like your thoughts and desires exist, but not in
the physical world. Your mind is connected to the physical world
through your physical body, so there is a definite connection between
these two different dimensions. Both dimensions really exist.
I had to do an unusual type of experiment because of the unususal
nature of what I was testing for: - The Existence of God.

Experimental controls associated with my experiment:
Believe that if God really exists then He does care about you and He
does not want you to go to hell. Believe that He would prove Himself
to you to prevent you from going to Hell, if He really does exist.
Ask God to prove to you that He exists, several times over a period of
weeks or months. Have the idea that if He really does prove Himself, then
you will serve Him, - which means read the New Testament and try to obey it.
Have patience to wait for the proof.
I was involved in Science and that is the kind of proof that God gave
me. If you are involved in something else God will probably prove
Himself to you in a way that you can best understand. He meets you
where you are at.



http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html Start with Matthew
and go all the way through to Revelation.
It is good to ask God to teach you what the New Testament really means
before you read it or listen to it.

Caution: Devils really exist and they have telepathic contact to the minds of men. How much control Satan and his devils have over your thinking right now will affect the experiment to some extent. If you manage to become a really saved Christian, God's Holy Spirit will be sent to you, to break you free from the devil's deceptions.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

[Proper use of experimental controls is important to the success of any experiment.]
God looks on the heart. If you are just playing a game or unwilling to serve Him, He will know it, and may withold the knowledge from you because you are not worthy to receive it.
Jesus said He taught in parables so that the crowd just passing by would not know what He was talking about. The explanation of the parables was given only to the disciples that decided to follow Him.- There are scriptures that show this.
 
I became a Christian not out of hope like you are saying.
As a physics student, agnostic that would argue against the existence of God in philosophy classes, I realized that the scientific method for determining truth is based on experiment. I thought up an experiment to test for the existence of God, and got definite evidence from my experiment. God exists and Christianity is the only religion He accepts.
Real Christianity defined by the King James verson New Testament.
That is the results of my experiment and some further research.
As a scientist I must allow experimental results to determine the truth.

Wow ghost, let me know more about this experiment!
 
I have a Bachelor's degree in Physics.
And evidently you've forgotten most of it:

Then one night when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it seemed like He was really there, it was not a dream. I had an
overwhelming feeling during this vision like I knew that He had all
the power in the universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen. I heard His voice paraphrasing something written in the Bible.
Note the word "seemed" in there?
Can you prove this was real and not a dream, the content of which was dictated by your "experiment"?

I asked God to give me proof; He gave me proof.
If that's proof all I can say is that you're no loss to science.

Maybe you forgot that an experiment has to be repeatable to be validated?
A one-off result (or even a twenty-off result) does not validate it: it has to work EVERY time.

The rest of that post - telepathic demons etc. just veers straight off the highway into woowoo land.

Basically you had a dream that you decided to take at face value...
Presumably you slept through your science classes and lucked out on the final exam.
 
You know I think I may have posted this here years ago, not sure.
I have this in my files. Here it is.
I can't make you believe it, however.

Two questions ghost.

1) Do you have hope?
2) What if science proved that all your experiences with 'God' were 100% internally generated?
 
Last edited:
Let's dissect..

I simply looked up to the ceiling and asked God to
give me
evidence that He really existed so that I would know and not just
believe. I did this
several times over a period of weeks or months

The problem here is that you have started to do something new continuously over a long period of time. What typically happens when you do this is that eventually you'll start having dreams related to that new endeavour. That's not usually a problem though - especially when you've just started thinking continuously about a new girl you've met. :D

Later I studied UFOs
and a UFO
researcher pointed out that there are flying objects in the Bible that
are associated
with angels that look like the UFOs that people are taking photgraphs
of today.

The thing is here, you've started to come to a belief before even studying that which you claim to be studying scientifically. You got into UFO's and all that before even reading a book from this supposed god whos existence you're trying to figure out. It's not really a surprise that a few years down the line you believe jesus is going to come back with aliens and UFO's to take over planet earth.

I
started reading the New testament to see what it said. Around this
time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from
somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts.

They most certainly were your thoughts, and it's no surprise you were having them considering the line you were going down. The occult, aliens, the bible.. what do you expect? Unsurprisingly enough you also started seeing little lights in the air after reading about people that can see little lights in the air.

At this stage it is safe to say that you over fed your mind.

Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it
seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream.

They're called dreams. You can tell it was a dream because you started the statement with "I was asleep". I will certainly admit that many dreams can be exceptionally life like. I had a dream one time that was so 'real' that when I awoke in shock I was actually paralyzed for the best part of 5 minutes and I could even feel the bullet holes. If I was an irrational man, I would certainly say that it wasn't a dream. Thankfully I know better.

The pertinent thing to state here is that you went a little overboard and started to manifest that which took up full focus of your brain in your dreams, and in your mind.

But hey, ignore me.. of course it was a little white hippy jesus with his alien fleet come to take over planet earth lol and had nothing to do with you loading your mind with aliens, UFO's, jesus, devils, the occult etc etc. Who would think otherwise? :shrug:
 
I became a Christian not out of hope like you are saying.
As a physics student, agnostic that would argue against the existence of God in philosophy classes, I realized that the scientific method for determining truth is based on experiment. I thought up an experiment to test for the existence of God, and got definite evidence from my experiment. God exists and Christianity is the only religion He accepts.
*************
M*W: It would be interesting if you would share your findings with the rest of us on this forum.
Real Christianity defined by the King James verson New Testament.
*************
M*W: Interesting that you believe this. What is your view on homosexuality? King James was infamous for this homosexuality.
That is the results of my experiment and some further research.
*************
M*W: I'm sure the scientists on this forum would like to learn from your scientific method of proving there is a god.
As a scientist I must allow experimental results to determine the truth.
*************
M*W: Yes, by all means. Publish your results so they can be tested by others wishing to prove there is a god.

Thank you for your invaluable work as a scientist. I look forward to your proof and how you came about it scientifically. We all would.
 
Cruchy cat
its not clear what answer you are after - I have already said that if science could reconstruct life from inert matter it would be sufficient amongst theists with a philosophical foundation to completely reconsider the nature of god in the universe - what more are you after?

What I was after is seeing what would you do personally. For example, would you invest in science or would you search elsewhere to invest your hope?

depends how emotional they find the whole ordeal

I suspect many atheists can put the emotional aside and go right for the truth, but you never know... there may be some edge-case exceptions.

given your apparent ability to recognize patterns and intimate understanding of computer technology, perhaps you could start up a special line of AI fortune cookies to bolster the confidence of your colleagues
:p

AI? pffft, ameteur. AI is for video games. AC is the way!

any animal society, since the divisions they draw up amongst themselves have nothing to do with god or atheism

Ok, then we'd all live like Meerkats... which is a pretty darn good life.
 
And evidently you've forgotten most of it:


Note the word "seemed" in there?
Can you prove this was real and not a dream, the content of which was dictated by your "experiment"?


If that's proof all I can say is that you're no loss to science.

Maybe you forgot that an experiment has to be repeatable to be validated?
A one-off result (or even a twenty-off result) does not validate it: it has to work EVERY time.

The rest of that post - telepathic demons etc. just veers straight off the highway into woowoo land.

Basically you had a dream that you decided to take at face value...
Presumably you slept through your science classes and lucked out on the final exam.

According to God's inspired Word, the bible, God speaks to men in dreams. Now, if you are in some kind of discipline or training that can't accept that as real, then you are cut off from one of the communication lines that God uses because of bad training.


1 Kings 3:5 In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee.

Matthew 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Matthew 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

[Think about this for awhile: You have thoughts, desires and a will that exists outside of the physical world, yet they do exist. They exist in your mind, a non physical entity. Yet, your non physical thoughts and mind control your physical body. Why can't you see that a non physical God can control a physical universe, like your non physical mind controls your physical body?]

Being overly skeptical can keep someone away from the truth just as easily as being not skeptical enough can keep someone away from the truth.

You want some kind of proof of demons. If you ever try to become a real Christian that believes in Jesus, repents of sin, and reads the bible, you will surely notice demons trying to fight you to turn you away from being a Christian. If the devils arlready have you in there sphere of influence, they won't fight with you. Try to break free from them and see how they will fight you. The battle field is the mind. They have telepathic contact to men's minds.

Why is it that people take the name of God, or Jesus, or Lord in vain using those words as swear words all day long? It is not logical for men to do that. It is evidence of the control that devils have over people's thoughts. Devil's want them to disobey the Bible and take God's name in vain.
 
“ Crunchy Cat


its not clear what answer you are after - I have already said that if science could reconstruct life from inert matter it would be sufficient amongst theists with a philosophical foundation to completely reconsider the nature of god in the universe - what more are you after? ”
What I was after is seeing what would you do personally. For example, would you invest in science or would you search elsewhere to invest your hope?
I see – in that case I guess nothing would change, since I would still operate on the principle of placing my experiences in a philosophical context
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
depends how emotional they find the whole ordeal ”
I suspect many atheists can put the emotional aside and go right for the truth, but you never know... there may be some edge-case exceptions.
its commonly seen that the truth (wherever it may arise) is often surmounted by things such as lust, greed, arrogance, envy, wrath, etc etc – to determine the likelihood of pursuing the truth in the given next life, it would be sufficient to note how one deals with lust, greed, envy, etc when it crops up in this life
(are you saying that the central foundation of atheism is the clear identification of things like lust, wrath, envy etc and the advocation of means to surmount these faults of character when they arise?)
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
given your apparent ability to recognize patterns and intimate understanding of computer technology, perhaps you could start up a special line of AI fortune cookies to bolster the confidence of your colleagues

AI? pffft, ameteur. AI is for video games. AC is the way!
that’s a good one for your cookie line
Do you have any more?
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
any animal society, since the divisions they draw up amongst themselves have nothing to do with god or atheism ”
Ok, then we'd all live like Meerkats... which is a pretty darn good life.

you find the notion of an existence where there is no agency of appeal or protection against being eaten alive by dogs and jackals as more appealing than what you have already?

as for sexual behavior


Reports show that there is no precopulatory display; the male fights with the female until she submits to him and copulation begins.


... I leave it up to you to discern whether it is an improvement or a greater inconvenience or completely identical to your current experiences as a human
;)
 
I see – in that case I guess nothing would change, since I would still operate on the principle of placing my experiences in a philosophical context

Why choose a philisophical context?


its commonly seen that the truth (wherever it may arise) is often surmounted by things such as lust, greed, arrogance, envy, wrath, etc etc – to determine the likelihood of pursuing the truth in the given next life, it would be sufficient to note how one deals with lust, greed, envy, etc when it crops up in this life
(are you saying that the central foundation of atheism is the clear identification of things like lust, wrath, envy etc and the advocation of means to surmount these faults of character when they arise?)

lust, greed, etc. often arise in the presence of truth when truth is not near the top of the value chain. I suspect that many (if not most) atheists value truth exceptionally high. To answer your question, atheism has no central foundation other than not to accept the statement "'God' exists" as true; however, my experience with atheists shows they have a much better ability to identify and define phenomena (objective, subjective, and absence).

that’s a good one for your cookie line
Do you have any more?

"Help I'm trapped in a cookie factory with LG!"

you find the notion of an existence where there is no agency of appeal or protection against being eaten alive by dogs and jackals as more appealing than what you have already?

as for sexual behavior


Reports show that there is no precopulatory display; the male fights with the female until she submits to him and copulation begins.

Go watch "Meekat Manor" and see how the reality aligns to what you have stated.

... I leave it up to you to discern whether it is an improvement or a greater inconvenience or completely identical to your current experiences as a human
;)

I am not the one claiming we'd live like "animals" (even though technically humans are animals and we are living)... but on a sidenote, did you know that there are truckloads of humans who enjoy pretending to look and act like other animals? I wonder what you think of such people (and I suspect most are theists)?
 
[Think about this for awhile: You have thoughts, desires and a will that exists outside of the physical world, yet they do exist. They exist in your mind, a non physical entity. Yet, your non physical thoughts and mind control your physical body. Why can't you see that a non physical God can control a physical universe, like your non physical mind controls your physical body?]

Being overly skeptical can keep someone away from the truth just as easily as being not skeptical enough can keep someone away from the truth.

Yes He does come to us in dreams.

Numbers 12:6
Then He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream.

Jeremiah 23:28
“ The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?” says the LORD.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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