perhaps - although I think 1 year of it might not be so bad. I need a break - thank the Gods Xmas is coming
To the atheists...
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
perhaps - although I think 1 year of it might not be so bad. I need a break - thank the Gods Xmas is coming
Maybe you could offer a trade?
Survivor: Gitmo?
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1406987,00.html
the only historical renaissance resting firmly on the shoulders of secularism that comes to mind is the industrial revolution - and given the problems caused by a mere 100 years of its appearance on the world stage, there are more than a few people who strongly lament its lack of "guiding force" and are busy trying to implement some sort of control measures
its not clear exactly what this anecdote is supposed to illustrate
christianity (and even then, the contemporary american version of it), is only ONE religion
I'm not sure if I do since a study of religious history tends to indicate other tenable options, even within the definitions of islam and christianity - what to speak of of outside of it ....
For many people, theistic religion is the major source of ethical guidelines.
If theistic religion is to be removed by the state, then the state would have to provide some ethical guidelines for the people. Unless such provisions be made, I don't think your scenairo above is a good idea.
That religion should be "private" is already enforced now, in some way with globalization and pressure to be indiscriminately tolerant. But this does lead to a lot of confusion and suffering for people. Few people have the time, education and energy to work out their own private religion, and so they are vulnerable to consumerism and sensationalism.
Disallowing public religion would mean that all those people would be left high and dry. As there are many such people, a general ethical decline of society would be the impending danger.
The idea of "private religion" is ideally fine, but it is not realistic.
Is there any type of evidence to indicate the faith (or lack thereof) concerning today's scientists? If not, then there is no basis in you saying that most are atheists, because that is only unsupported speculation.
Oh, and I kind of stopped reading your post when I got to your story at a bar. You sure have a lot of convenient stories, Michael!
Defiled Belial
Registered Member
I think that
-change all religious holidays to secular counterparts
Would be the only needed change. I believe in separation but you should be allowed to publicly display religion as long as it is not endorsed by non-religoius or secular establishments.
No to all of the above, although I need some more clarification about the fourth. What do you mean exactly?
Need clarification for this too, what do you mean? Like remove the non-profit status of churches?
Simple. What business has religion in government? Its recognition is a priviledge only, not a right, although I think government should give a nod to the majority faith.
QUOTE=S.A.M.;1665435]Imagine your country gets, somehow a government that is pro-science, at the same time being pro-atheism.[/quote] a extremely strange question.
unless of course you want to be living under a communist or Fascist dictatorship.
this is by far the strangest statement, nobody need to be taught to be atheist, it's the natural state, but if you mean to deprogram them from their religious brainwashing, then the statement makes a little more sense.
isn't this what the communist tried to do, but by doing such a thing, they just changed one dogma for another.
most european countries are secular now days, so your ideas are completely off the wall.
unless of course you want to be living under a communist or Fascist dictatorship.
If we really want to know the answer then I think we need to ask ourselves: What would Jean-Luc Picard do? I mean, what is the main source of moral guidance in the Federation?
If it is true that the majority of people need a religion to act morally then (a) that's scary and (b) OK then lets make a new religion [not based around space people] that does as much.
Why do we need to use one of these antiquated ones? Especially something like monotheism - that's no good.
I think a pluralistic society is great for those of us in mainly European colonized countries and so should most people on the board. The only way We in AU or USA or NZ or Brazil or etc... can maintain a pluralistic society is by having religion separate from government.
Does that mean that a country MUST be pluralistic with a secular government? No. Does one shoe fit all? No.
Perhaps countries such as China, Malaysia, Thailand, KSA, UAE, Japan, Tibet, India etc... if they have a long history of certain Religions that seems to be woven into their culture perhaps it's better for their people to mix the two together? They can give it a try and see how it works. I'd like to say they'll never compete with Pluralistic societies but Japan kick arse so who knows. In the ever closer nit world where competition for beleif is fierce I say give it a go and see what happens.
Michael
What is the religion of the Federation? Anything? What motivates people in Star Fleet to get on with their jobs?
If it is true that the majority of people need a religion to act morally then (a) that's scary and (b) OK then lets make a new religion [not based around space people] that does as much.
Why do we need to use one of these antiquated ones? Especially something like monotheism - that's no good.
I think a pluralistic society is great for those of us in mainly European colonized countries and so should most people on the board. The only way We in AU or USA or NZ or Brazil or etc... can maintain a pluralistic society is by having religion separate from government.
Does that mean that a country MUST be pluralistic with a secular government? No. Does one shoe fit all? No.
Perhaps countries such as China, Malaysia, Thailand, KSA, UAE, Japan, Tibet, India etc... if they have a long history of certain Religions that seems to be woven into their culture perhaps it's better for their people to mix the two together? They can give it a try and see how it works. I'd like to say they'll never compete with Pluralistic societies but Japan kick arse so who knows. In the ever closer nit world where competition for beleif is fierce I say give it a go and see what happens.
Michael
What is the religion of the Federation? Anything? What motivates people in Star Fleet to get on with their jobs?
Or religion, apparently.SAM said:
But that brings up an interesting question: would anyone buy the justification of "it's my religion" to mandate a supply of science texts to incarcerated folks - any government, theocratic or secular ?
Apparently governments do not look upon science, or atheism itself, as a religion - at least, not one deserving privileges. But then gods and priests have traditionally been very handy for governments to keep around, and keep happy.
According to several first hand accounts of extended incarceration, poetry seems to be the most valuable intellectual possession of the desperate and oppressed. Religious poetry included, of course.
actually this poet reflects over her atheist period to conclude that poetry was her first prayer
Any attempt at prayer in this state is a slow spin on a hot spit, but poetry is still healing balm, partly because it’s always helped me feel less alone, even in earliest childhood. Poets were my first priests, and poetry itself my first altar. It was a lot of other firsts too, of course: first classroom/chat room/confessional. But it was most crucially the first source of awe for me, because it eased a nagging isolation: it was a line thrown to my drear-minded self from seemingly glorious Others.
In my godless household, poems were the only prayers that got said—the closest thing to sacred speech at all. I remember mother bringing me Eliot’s poems from the library, and she not only swooned over them, she swooned over my swooning over them, which felt as close as she came to swooning over me. Even my large-breasted and socially adroit older sister got Eliot—though Lecia warned me off telling kids at school that I read that kind of stuff. At about age twelve, I remember sitting on our flowered bedspread reading him to Lecia while she primped for a date. Read it again, the whole thing. She was a fourteen-year-old leaning into the mirror with a Maybelline wand, saying, Goddamn that’s great...Poetry was the family’s religion. Beauty bonded us.
which eventually culminated in ....
So it was for me last winter—my most recent dark night of the soul—when my faith got sandblasted away for some weeks. Part of this was due to circumstances. Right after a move to New York, fortune delivered a triple whammy: my kid off to college, a live-in love ending volcanically, then medical maladies that kept me laid up for weeks alone. In a state of scalding hurt—sleepless and unable to conjure hope at some future prospects—suddenly (it felt sudden, as if a pall descended over me one day) God seemed vaporous as any perfume.
To kneel and pray in this state is almost physically painful. At best, it’s like talking into a bucket. At worst, you feel like a chump, some heartsick fool still sending valentines to a cad.
perhaps you could almost describe poetry as a sub-religious principle
hey I like to talk and drink what can I say???
Ecklund, E. H. and C. P. Scheitle. 2007. Religion among Academic Scientists: Distinctions, Disciplines, and Demographics. Social Problems 54: 289–307.
Gallup, G. Jr. and D. M. Lindsay. 1999. Surveying the Religious Landscape: Trends in U.S. Religious Beliefs. Harrisburg, PA, Morehouse Publishing.
Larson E. Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial and America's Continuing Debate Over Science and Religion. (Basic Books, 1997).
Some findings:
- 517 members of the National Academy of Sciences queried:
1) Belief in "personal god":
7% responded in the affirmative
72.2% expressed "personal disbelief"
20.8% expressed "doubt or agnosticism"
2) Belief in the concept of human immortality (life after death):
7.9% accept
76.7% reject
In the USA general population 90% beleive in a personal God.
In the USA general population 90% can not find Iraq on a globe (nor the USA) and think Muslims is bad.
Coincidence? I think not!
Michael
This isn't true. Japan, as most people will tell you, is VERY Japanese. They have an extremely strong culture. Yet they have a secular government when just 100 years ago they have a God-Emperor and had had this for 2000 years.
Ever been to India SAM? Isn't their government secular republic?
