To all ppl that believe in a god.

My point is that those two elements had to exist in some place set in time and they had to get put there some how. There has to be something outside of time you can't go around that.
Outside of time? You mean something has to have always existed? That would be matter before a collision occured to create the big bang and what is now visable, but as i said before, thats not a fact, just a theory, but for me its more logical than god created matter, then used matter to create the universe and humans, he's an added stage that is not required to me, but as always the answer will remain we dont know and probably never will.
You don't have to say I am right if you understand the greatest thing as being God or some creator there has to be something supernatural.
That would be saying your right though wouldnt it? If i said the greatest thing is god/a creator/something supernatural i'd be agreeing with you, i believe matter always existed and since something has always been there i see no reason to add a god to an already working equation, but as i say still both just theorys, all we know and have to work with is whats visable in this universe now, and that includes matter but not a god.

Im perfectly happy to say i dont know what happened but this is my theory for said reasons.
 
Lemming3k said:
Outside of time? You mean something has to have always existed? That would be matter before a collision occured to create the big bang and what is now visable, but as i said before, thats not a fact, just a theory, but for me its more logical than god created matter, then used matter to create the universe and humans, he's an added stage that is not required to me, but as always the answer will remain we dont know and probably never will.

Well I have been raised in a Christian home, and I of course like any other human being you question what you believe and I have questioned what I believe and I find it to be Truth. I find no fault in what I believe.

That would be saying your right though wouldnt it? If i said the greatest thing is god/a creator/something supernatural i'd be agreeing with you, i believe matter always existed and since something has always been there i see no reason to add a god to an already working equation, but as i say still both just theorys, all we know and have to work with is whats visable in this universe now, and that includes matter but not a god.

Im perfectly happy to say i dont know what happened but this is my theory for said reasons.

Yes i see now that I am saying you must say I am right. I will grant you that. My point with this is stating that everybody wants to ask the How question. I will be honest that I just believe that there is God how He does what He does I have no clue. He is God and I accept the fact that He can do that. Now you don't have to same I am right although that is my goal as is every argument, but this you have to agree with: before you can believe that there was something supernatural you can't believe in God. Like, you can't have two before you have one. So you see where I am going with that. I realize that some of what I say it is a little drawn out but I am getting better hopefully. Merry Christmas. Even though you don't believe in Christ or God I really hope you have a good Christmas.
~ Warrior61 ><>
 
Aborted_Fetus said:
Well now, that depends. God would have to appear in front of me or do something so significant that I couldn't help but believe in him. Many of these "miracles" we hear about, such as the seeing Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and the like are totally bogus.

I say to that He already did. Look aroung you. Go outside. I believe He has revealed Himself to you very well. The seeing Mary in a sanwhich that stuff is bogus and a bunch a junk 99% of the time. (not all)

(Side note: As I typed the above paragraph, I paused at the word "him" when referring to God. I was taught in Catholic high school to spell it "Him" with a capital H. Why is this? If I was talking about my friend Dan, I wouldn't say, "Yeah, me and Him went to the store." I don't get why it is capitolized when refering the God, and not with any other name. Hence, I will keep it lower case.)

You can't be that crazy. You know we do that as being reverant. Of course you think it is a bunch of junk. You don't except God anyway. lol Use your head. After all this is an intelligent forum.



You used a math equation that makes absolutely no sense in your analogy, how is that succeeding? Sure, you quoted something other than the Bible, but if it does not make any sense, how does that help?

What will I say that makes sense to you probably nothing. You have already made up your mind no matter what I say is junk anyway so where are you going with this. The only reason i said that again was to disprove what you said. In which I suceeded. So leave that alone because you aren't going anywhere with it.

And yes, I know Christians are not all alike, but my point is, the Bible is really the only source of information you have to go by. I mean think about it, if you did not have the Bible, what else would you have?

Answer: Nothing! Absolutely Nothing! Duh! That book is my source of Truth. You call it hogwash thats fine thats your opinion. But lets be real. If I was a muslim I would quote from the Koran. But I am a Christian so I quote from the Bible. It isn't that hard to understand.

Please explain to me how you can just blindly believe in something, and why. The Christian beliefs and the idea of God does not make logical sense and has no scientific proof to back it up. Do you feel the need to believe in something supernatural, maybe to curb the fear associated with death? I just don't get it. Personally, I really have no fear of death, I have no problem knowing that when I die, I will simply rot in the ground. I can't help but be skeptical, especially when you claim that I just have to believe.

See I say I do have scientific proof and so do you. I don't have much to say to this part of your argument except for the fact that you are "Stating the Obvious." I am glad you have no fear of death, that is hard to aquire. Although, I am very sad to hear that you have no point in life and you are without purpose. That is sad. Why don't you just die I mean thats not logical to me so I guess we have mutual feelings.

One more thing. There are hundreds of religions in this world. What makes you so sure that yours is the only correct religion, and that there is God, not Allah, or whatever. All these other religions have their texts to back up their story, how do you know that yours is the true religion?

Well I struggled with that, but I found some stuff wrong with those religions but the common thing was this. Every other religion is focused on self and man. Christianity is focused on God. I found theres pointless and Christianity to be fulfilling. Deny me that one.

And now that I am kind of on a roll here, what is the phrase "In God We Trust" still doing on U.S. currency? Who is we? We is the nation as a whole, and I, being part of this nation, do not trust in God, therefore, the phrase is inaccurate. Yes, I know it is part of our heritage to have it, but what about people that do not believe in God?

And why is that dumbass Bush saying that "God speaks through me"? What about all the Muslim people in this country? What about all the Buddist people in this country? What about all the atheist people in this country? How does he think it will make people feel that he makes political decisions that will effect the entire country based on a god that they do not believe in? It makes me extremely angry that he has the arrogance to say that his God is guiding him to make decisions for an entire group of people of different religions. I'm sure you can at least try to look at this objectively and see that it is not right. I mean, if he were to go on national television tomorrow and say that Buddah tells him how to run the country, you wouldn't be offended? It just does not sit well with me.

</rant>

Many things do not sit well with you. What does sit well with you. Besides you have no hope, besides the fact that your life is pointless and one day you will cease to live and rot. I envy you because your life is so happy. I am glad you got on a roll. But hear is something to scare you. This forum that you are on the reason you have the right to do so many things is because of God and yes what you call a rediculous unlogical belief in somefictional charachter called God is the reason you are where you are. To be so ruthless why do you care what is on the money instead of having it. That little thing shouldn't bother you, after all it is stupid and rediculous remember. It isn't just part of our heratige. People came so they could worship freely. Man just stop and think what that rediculous belief has gotten you. I don't intend to be mean, I am sorry if you get offended please forgive me. Why would you let someone who believed in something rediculous who must already be that stupid to believe in it offend you. Wow you have to be smarter than that. All you are doing is telling me your problems with what I believe. Every time I look over it. Now I am not. I know you have problems with what I believe but stick to the argument. Merry Christmas aborted fetus. I hope ou have a good Christmas or Hannakah, or Kwanza or holiday whatever you call it have it and have it to the fullest please.
~ Warrior61 ><>
 
Warrior61 said:
I am sure you have had geometry and the Pathagorean theorem of a triangle:
2 2 2
a + b = c
That is not Pythagoras. The next statement is not meant to be rude. You don't understand simple geometry.

Warrio61 said:
Many scientist agree that there was a world wide flood.
Name one. The next statement is not meant to be rude. You don't understand simple geology.

I know we are in the philosophy section, but if you are going to support or seek to elucidate your arguments with science should you not have some idea what you are talking about?

Consider this. You say elsewhere you wish to persuade people to your view. I read the above and think, "He does not understand what he is posting. He is too lazy or careless to check his facts. He is unreliable. It is likely that the rest of his arguuments are unreliable."

I don't think that is what you want.
 
before you can believe that there was something supernatural you can't believe in God. Like, you can't have two before you have one. So you see where I am going with that. I realize that some of what I say it is a little drawn out but I am getting better hopefully.
I think i understand what your getting at although it didnt seem to make sense, i dont believe in anything supernatural or god however.
Merry Christmas. Even though you don't believe in Christ or God I really hope you have a good Christmas.
Merry Christmas to you too, i think i more celebrate the festivals pagan origins(yule and the winter solstice), but people are entitled to celebrate whatever they believe in, the important thing is its a time when peace should be promoted, not comercialisation. :)
 
Answer: Nothing! Absolutely Nothing! Duh! That book is my source of Truth. You call it hogwash thats fine thats your opinion. But lets be real. If I was a muslim I would quote from the Koran. But I am a Christian so I quote from the Bible. It isn't that hard to understand.

I am not having a hard time understanding it at all. I am simply saying it is ONE source. I think it is pretty pathetic that you take a single source of mythological stories as pure truth, while all the scientific facts around you suggest otherwise.

Although, I am very sad to hear that you have no point in life and you are without purpose. That is sad. Why don't you just die I mean thats not logical to me so I guess we have mutual feelings.

What makes you say I have no point in life? That is a statement of pure ignorance and stupidity. Just because I don't live my life thinking that I am going to eventually get into this imaginary land called Heaven doesn't mean my life has no point. I am a good human being and I do good deeds for myself and others because it is the right thing to do, not because I am trying to buy myself into the holy land.

Many things do not sit well with you. What does sit well with you.

The fact that religion is becoming less and less popular as people become more intelligent. I found this, which I thought was excellent writing:

Why religion will be quickly eliminated by the field of emergent systems:

Religion is an institution that invokes unobservable and unprovable entities to explain the natural world. It provides a default explanation for anything not currently understood. Over the last few thousand years, the number of unknowns has exponentially decreased along with religion's monopoly on why and how. Now, religion is almost never invoked to interpret reality. When someone has a seizure, a hole isn't drilled in his head. When our children ask where AIDS or lightning comes from, we no longer answer "God."

We now have a wonderful array of social and natural sciences at our disposal. Sociology tells us why people behave seemingly oddly in groups. Psychology explains that people aren't strictly good or evil. Biochemistry shows us how the neurons in our brain work and even gives recipes for chemicals that make us happier and less anxious. Physics tells us how these molecules are bound together and how they can be split apart.

Each of the sciences is pretty confined to its scope. The pure sciences explain the simple in slightly simpler terms. The social sciences explain the complex in slightly less complex terms. However, they do string end-to-end very nicely, one picking up where the previous left off.

There does seem to be a large gap that is covered by no field at this time. That gap is between neurobiology and psychology. The first explains how each individual neuron operates. The second, what they do when about 15 billion of them get together. What happens in between that creates consciousness and apparent self-awareness? To many, it's obvious that this gap will be filled by another scientific field. However, to most of the world, this is the final unknown. Like the unknowns before it, it's filled by religion.

Nearly all current religious beliefs are concentrated around this remaining scientific gap. What are the most prevalent remaining religious beliefs? People no longer believe the earth is the center of the universe or disease is punishment from God. These contradict existing hard sciences. The remaining beliefs are those that fill in for this missing scientific field. The soul and the afterlife.

How are the soul and afterlife related to this missing field? The soul is a catch-all concept that substitutes for our lack of understanding of consciousness. Afterlife is recognition that because the mind (soul) is not understood, it is to be treated as a black box. The afterlife concept is a hopeful presupposition that because we do not know what goes on inside the black box, it may possess an ability to transcend its apparent cease of functioning.

The field that will connect neurobiology and psychology will be emergent systems. Emergence is the tendency of simple elements to organize themselves into a complex system. Emergent systems is a very real field that attempts to explain how an ant colony or an economy can be made of simple pieces with simple goals and achieve an incredible level of complexity. Coupled with our existing understanding of neural networking (a subset of computer science), this field will probably figure out consciousness in a few decades.

With the removal of the final discontinuity in our scientific view of reality, religion's remaining strongholds will disappear in a single generation. There will simply be no room for concepts like soul or afterlife in the mind of someone who grows up with knowledge of how consciousness emerges and why they perceive sensations like free will and self-awareness.

I thought this was a great piece of writing, and nothing will make me happier than to see the downfall of religion. Obviously it will never be eliminated completely, I know there will still be many wackos that refuse to give up their faith, but the more people that give up their religion, the better.

George W. Bush is one of the reasons that I cannot wait to see the downfall of religion. He has limited stem-cell research because of religious reasons. Research on embyros created outside of the humans body, a "test-tube" embryo so to speak, that could possibly lead to the development of cures that could save millions of human lives has been limited because HIS religion doesn't believe in it. I don't really want to go into politics, but don't you think it makes sense to do this research? Religion has nothing to do with it. These embryos were never going to be humans anyway. They were created for testing, it's not like they were taken from their mother and were going to be born. It is rediculous to limit research like this that has so much possibility.

Besides you have no hope, besides the fact that your life is pointless and one day you will cease to live and rot.

Who are you to say my life is pointless? Just because you think my life is pointless because I do not believe in some imaginary being does not make my life pointless. Life is what you make of it. LIFE. Not what happens after death. Whether I believe in God or not does not effect whether or not my life is pointless.

But hear is something to scare you. This forum that you are on the reason you have the right to do so many things is because of God and yes what you call a rediculous unlogical belief in somefictional charachter called God is the reason you are where you are.

That is your opinion. I do not believe that God exists and I do not believe that he created me. It does not scare me in the least.

That little thing shouldn't bother you, after all it is stupid and rediculous remember. It isn't just part of our heratige. People came so they could worship freely. Man just stop and think what that rediculous belief has gotten you. I don't intend to be mean, I am sorry if you get offended please forgive me. Why would you let someone who believed in something rediculous who must already be that stupid to believe in it offend you. Wow you have to be smarter than that.

Yes, people came here so they can worship freely. But the point is, Bush is indirectly saying that HIS god is the only true god, and that everyone in the country should be following it. He basically says he makes decisions based on what God wants him to do. Therefore, it forces the rest of America, who does not necessarily believe in God, to live with these decisions.

You do not have a problem with it because it is your god that he is talking about. But you are telling me that you would have no problem if our currency said "In Allah We Trust" on them?

Man just stop and think what that rediculous belief has gotten you.

What, exactly, has it gotten me? You think that religion is what formed this country? This country was formed with the idea of freedom, and I am well aware what freedom has gotten me. Look what religion has gotten us: 9/11. A religious fundamentalist group attacking the U.S. because their religion sees our country as evil, and the more American's they kill, the more holy they will become, they believe. To paraphrase George Carlin, more people have been killed for religious purposes than every war in history combined. It's true too. Think about it, The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Holocost, and of course 9/11, just to name a few. I'm no history buff, but people have been oppressed from the beginning of history for their religious beleifs, is that really a good thing?

I know you have problems with what I believe but stick to the argument.

What is the argument anyway? This is a religion forum, I am simply expressing my opinion about how childish and foolish religion is.

Anyway, I'm glad Christmas is finally over, people go insane on Christmas. All the stress makes people nuts.
 
Everyone on this thread is talking pure drivel. The religious and the scientific people think they know it all. Everyone thinks that they have the answers.

Didn't you guys realise that this is for intelligent people? Try thinking outside of the box...
 
SpicySamosa said:
Everyone on this thread is talking pure drivel.
I assume this is hyperbole, since I can cite instances, from both sides, where factual statements are made. If you are serious I shall console myself with the thought that at least the drivel is pure.
SpicySamosa said:
The religious and the scientific people think they know it all.
I shall let the religious people speak for themselves. By definition true scientists are very aware of the scope of their ignorance.
SpicySamosa said:
Everyone thinks that they have the answers.
.
a/a
SpicySamosa said:
Didn't you guys realise that this is for intelligent people? Try thinking outside of the box...
Go on. Enlighten us.
 
Everything that was createed had/has a begining. God always existed, therefore there is no need for him to have a begining.
 
Warrior61 said:
Well the atmosphere where that star use to reside in where did it come from. You are saying that the star was the first thing. Oh and your proof of that star do you have a peice of it. What about time, how many years ago did it happen. How would you measure time though. The essence of time had to come from somewhere. How would you measure time during the time of that star. What did it orbit around. Now what is the Fact again.
~ Warrior 61 ><>

It sounds to me like you are just grasping desperately for any sort of validation for your personal beliefs.

However, I will answer the best I can.

You seem to ignore (or not want to know) the fact that stars explode and form new solar systems.

Please read:
This one is a story about newly discovered galaxies that were recently "born":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4117861.stm

and some info on supernovae:
Supernova (David Darling)
Supernova Remnant (David Darling)
Supernovae (NASA)

I don't claim to know where these stars came from in the first place, but here is the difference between your theories and mine. On the one hand, we can observe stars being formed across through galaxy with our telescopes. We know how stars are formed. This method of formation contrasts the biblical myth of creation. No one can produce any sort observable proof for intelligent design. Nowhere throughout the universe, have our telescopes shown god creating new stars and planets.
 
Just to make a note: It takes time and its hard to measure the age of an star, since it takes time/years for their light to reach us, and sometimes when their light reach us, they might not exist anymore.

When i think about it, the sky is the a movie of the past (history of the stars :])
 
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Enigma'07: Everything that was createed had/has a begining.
*************
M*W: No, that's not the case. The universe is cyclic. There is no beginning and there is no end. No one can truthfully establish the dates of the random and natural occurance of the Big Bang. We are still experiencing ripples from the Big Bang. No one created the Big Bang -- it just evolved as did we.
*************
Enigma'07: God always existed, therefore there is no need for him to have a begining.
*************
M*W: There is no need for God to have a beginning, because he never existed.
 
Everywhere we look in the universe, we see larger things and we see smaller things. Everything seems to have a next smaller component while being a component of the next larger thing. Science admits it doesn't have all the answers, so religion steps in to "fill" in the blanks. The problem is that the more science learns about "largest" things and "smallest" things, the more constrained religion becomes. Since religion concerns itself with mysteries, mysticism and superstition, I ignore it. Real science requires proof, but religion only asks for faith. Faulty science requires a little of both.

Science doesn't have all the answers, and to it's credit, usually admits it. Sometimes however, it does get side tracked, as in the cosmological Big Bang theory which itself has elements of a religion. But by and large, science gets us to where we ought to go.

Religion is the pacifier along for the ride that's getting squeezed more and more to the margin as we go along.
 
Lemming3k: Outside of time? You mean something has to have always existed? That would be matter before a collision occured to create the big bang and what is now visable, but as i said before, thats not a fact, just a theory, but for me its more logical than god created matter, then used matter to create the universe and humans, he's an added stage that is not required to me, but as always the answer will remain we dont know and probably never will.
*************
M*W: Time was created by the random and natural creation of our solar system by the BB. When our earth started regularly orbiting around the sun, time was created. Before this, time is irrelevant to us.
 
There seems to be a direct correlation to amount of education and beliefs in this forum. I don't want to attack Warrior, but his entire method of "argument" does not make any sense or follow any guidelines standard in an intelligent discussion. I am starting to wish that all supreme being believers will just stick to the "goddidit" excuse and stop butchering any rational discussions.
 
M*W: Time was created by the random and natural creation of our solar system by the BB. When our earth started regularly orbiting around the sun, time was created. Before this, time is irrelevant to us.
Interesting idea, i feel a passage of time has to always have been constant even if we werent around to measure it, i suppose it all depends on beliefs and especially as to what existed before this universe, but im sure thats for another thread.

There seems to be a direct correlation to amount of education and beliefs in this forum.
Its not so much the education more the willingness to listen to ideas and discuss them with an open mind, people shouldnt expect to change others beliefs, but simply present them with a new idea and ask them to consider it, some people are more willing to listen than others and some ideas more plausible than others.
 
Time was created by the random and natural creation of our solar system by the BB. When our earth started regularly orbiting around the sun, time was created.
...is a perfect example of Swiss cheese. So many holes to be filled before it becomes a coherent whole. And I'll skip the statement on the Big Bang.

M*W, before making authoritative statements, I'd read up a little on the subject. Some topics you might look into:
  • Interstellar gas clouds,
  • Gravitational effect within these gas clouds,
  • Angular momentum,
  • Accretion disks, and finally,
  • Centripetal force.
At least that's a start.
Before this, time is irrelevant to us.
How is time relevant or irrelevant to someone who is not around?
 
marv: M*W, before making authoritative statements, I'd read up a little on the subject. Some topics you might look into:
  • Interstellar gas clouds,
  • Gravitational effect within these gas clouds,
  • Angular momentum,
  • Accretion disks, and finally,
  • Centripetal force.
At least that's a start.How is time relevant or irrelevant to someone who is not around?
*************
M*W: "...making authoritative statements?" I expressed my opinion on the creation of time. The subjects you mentioned are not of interest to me, and reading them would take too much time away from my regular research. Time is irrelevant unless someone is there to monitor and record it, but that wasn't the issue.
 
All this discussion of time makes me want to bring up the fact that time is just another invention of man.
 
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