To all ppl that believe in a god.
- Thread starter Victor E
- Start date
1. I am not saying that universe has always existed, I'm simply saying that something must have created it, and it can't be god, because who created god? Nothing can come out of nothing and thats including god. Then, who created something when nothing can be created by nothing? That is indeed a good question. It's easy to think that a god did it, because it's give you some security, it makes you think that "you know the true" but in real it's a unsolved mysterious. A mysterium that might never been solved (at least not under the humans era).
I do not say your wrong because you believe in god, but it's nonsense. If god had those powers, where did he get those powers from?
What I am trying to say is that the universe itself is a lot more powerful than what your god could be.
Also, the vision about a god is making your eyes unclear, you can't see behind him, becuase you think he's the mightiest. You are blinded by your believe
"Humans that believes in god are like sheeps, they must have someone that watches them to make them safe. While atheist, who do not need a shepard can think clear, without having to believe that god created us".
And even if god existed, what do you think is best for science, people that doesn't believe god exist and therefore wants to search the truth. Or people that just assume god created it all and´don't search for proves.
Prove that God exist, and I will admit I am wrong. Until then, clear your eyes and don't let your believes stop your thoughts.
I do not say your wrong because you believe in god, but it's nonsense. If god had those powers, where did he get those powers from?
What I am trying to say is that the universe itself is a lot more powerful than what your god could be.
Also, the vision about a god is making your eyes unclear, you can't see behind him, becuase you think he's the mightiest. You are blinded by your believe
"Humans that believes in god are like sheeps, they must have someone that watches them to make them safe. While atheist, who do not need a shepard can think clear, without having to believe that god created us".
And even if god existed, what do you think is best for science, people that doesn't believe god exist and therefore wants to search the truth. Or people that just assume god created it all and´don't search for proves.
Prove that God exist, and I will admit I am wrong. Until then, clear your eyes and don't let your believes stop your thoughts.
Lemming3k said:
ok then if youare willing to say you got here by chance then you are a really lucky person lol. So by chance we can think and talk and build things. By chance the world goes round and it produces everything we need. Ok I cant say by chance everything happened and works. That is to broad.
~ Warrior61 ><>
Victor E said:
How can you be an Atheist and say you don't know if there is a God. Atheist say there isn't one. How can you ask a question like that but not have evidence to find out. You have already came to the conclusion that there has to be a creator. I have said it before,"you have to come down to something has always been and always will be." How is it nonsense to say there is a God when you have already said something can't come out of nothing so some one had to create it. The only thing is If there was a chain of where did that come from it has to start with the biggest b/c it is immpossible to CREATE something bigger, and better than you. I am sure you have had geometry and the Pathagorean theorem of a triangle:
2 2 2
a + b = c
Now it is obvious that c is always bigger than a and b so if a=the Universe and b=humans then what does c equal. God!!!
I am telling you that you can't avoid that there has something eternal that is the greatest you can't avoid that. There is some proof if that isn't enough look outside and there you go.
~ Warrior61
Galaxies and solar systems are formed by the remenants of exploding stars. The universe is constantly destroying itself to give birth to novelty. We observe this in modern day astronomy. It is a fact.Warrior61 said:
Let's compare your assertation that if god didn't create the earth it happened by chance, with one of my own - 2+2 by chance equals four. I mean, how did two and two come together? Or maybe it was some god creature that made it so.
Just because the biblical version of "god" (or any other omniscient being) had (and continues to have) nothing to do with our day to day choices and activities, does not mean that the solar system happened by chance. There was a star somewhere, and it exploded. What it destroyed happened to carry the right amount of elements needed for life and they came together in our star system over billions of years. All of this is observable to us. "God" reaching his magic finger down from the sky and creating a planet out of nothing has never been and never will be observed.
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Victor E said:
One question:
1) If God(in this context, First Cause) didn't create the universe, and the universe isn't eternal, then what/how did the universe come about?
When we start talking about the existence of the universe, we must come to a wall of the Infinite. Unless we have an Infinite Regress of Creators and Createes, which can't happen, then we must come to believe that something is just there. Whatever this Infinite thing is, it must be eternal, as it can't have a predecessor. The Candidates: Universe in one corner and the Supreme Being(I'm not calling it the Christian God just yet, as right now all we're talking about is an abstract Supreme Being) in the other. Can the universe exist eternally? Can the universe be an actual infinite?
In a word, no. For the universe to just exist in this physical realm, it would have to have just been here. It would stretch into the past infinitely and thus infinitely into the future. But this does not fit in with the space-time concepts we know. Time must have begun; if it were infinite then it would have had to have gone infinitely into the past, which means we couldn't have gotten to the present. An ACTUAL infinite cannot be crossed, so time cannot be infinite. So it must have begun somewhere or come from something outside of the universe.
To come up with oscillating universes where the Big Bang is not the beginning still does not create an actual infinite universe, only a potential infinite, potentially neverending universe that goes on forever. To say that something is neverending is not not the same as saying its eternal. It's the difference between a ray and a line.
If we're going to say that the universe could not have eternally existed, then that leaves only God(Supreme Being) as an option. But rather than just leave it at that, a win by default, there would be reasoning behind God being the Cause for the Universe.
The main problem with the Universe being infinite is that it has to struggle with the problem of space and time. Something outside of the universe would not, to our knowledge, be restricted by time and space. It would outside of this physical realm and therefore would not necessarily be limited in time and space. Thus, we could say that the Infinite is outside of the physical, finite world. It would not be a stretch to assign something outside of the universe the quality of infinity. Therefore it is perfectly logical to say that the Universe does have a Cause, one outside of this finite world.
Well, if the universe had the qualities of infinitude, then where did it get that from? The likely response would be that it possesses(sp?) those qualities intrinsically, which is the same as saying it just does. Why would the same principle not apply to God?
How do you know that?
How do you know you're thinking clear? By what standard are you able to say that I am thinking clearly about something while someone else is thinking in LA smog?
Just because theists believe that God created all doesn't mean that we just sit around and do nothing scientific. Theist scientists like Newton, Leibniz, and Mendel searched scientifically all the while remaining at least theist, if not more. Ultimately, yes, the question of how things work is the phrase, "God made it," but that doesn't mean that we can't know the middle mechanism within a natural occurence.
What would constitute proof? Specifically, what would satisfy you as proof that God does exist?
Do you have any idea how massive the universe is? I don't think anyone has the capacity to in fact visualize how large the universe is and how many stars, planets, and galaxies are in it. Here are some facts from a website I found:
These are very conservative estimates. If you want to talk statistics, then it is statistically probable that life does exist elsewhere in the Universe.
Also, as a side note, are there any sources of information other than the Bible that you religious people can quote? The Bible is a single source, and one that was written almost 2000 years ago, contains many contradictions, and more often than not, does not make logical sense. Also, how are you supposed to discern which parts should be taken literally, and what parts shouldn't. It seems that the church changes which parts shouldn't be taken literally whenever it best suits them. Any other source with this many problems would have been disregarded long ago, for some reason it still seems to be kicking around. Why? Because without it, Christians have NOTHING, and they know it.
top mosker: Galaxies are fromed by the remenants of exploding stars. The universe is constantly destroying itself to give birth to novelty. We observe this in modern day astronomy. It is a fact.
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M*W: top mosker, not every post makes me think, but your's just did. In the beginning, energy was somehow created, I would assume by the power created from the exploding sun. Going down the evolutionary road a bit, early man both worshipped and feared the sun both for the crops it grew as well as the dangerous elements it spawned. They believed the sun to be god.
Now going back up the evolutionary road before the time of recorded history, it has been said that there was a war in the heavens. The sun continued exploding as the planets and their moons were created and, in this process, the planet Venus became the "Morningstar," the "light bearer," the "lucient one," also called "Lucifer," the "One who would bring other light to the Earth," in addition to the sun, the god of all. Early man saw Venus as another god, a lesser god of the darkness, and they worshipped and feared it.
Modern man came along on the evolutionary road and believed the sun-of-god was the Son-of-God and Venus was Lucifer, and he worshipped and feared them, and he created religions to explain these concepts so people wouldn't fear death. The people of the world created some 25 dying demigod saviors as supplemental gods to the One God (the Sun). People wanted to believe there was a power greater than themselves from whom they could gain protection from their fears, but what they have failed to realize is, that after 6,000 or more years of recorded history, there is no god more powerful than themselves. There is no god of the day to worship nor is there a god of the night to fear. Modern man is still evolving toward a higher existence that is one with universal interconnectedness where there are no gods, no demons, no dying demigod saviors, and no man-made religions to worship and fear.
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M*W: top mosker, not every post makes me think, but your's just did. In the beginning, energy was somehow created, I would assume by the power created from the exploding sun. Going down the evolutionary road a bit, early man both worshipped and feared the sun both for the crops it grew as well as the dangerous elements it spawned. They believed the sun to be god.
Now going back up the evolutionary road before the time of recorded history, it has been said that there was a war in the heavens. The sun continued exploding as the planets and their moons were created and, in this process, the planet Venus became the "Morningstar," the "light bearer," the "lucient one," also called "Lucifer," the "One who would bring other light to the Earth," in addition to the sun, the god of all. Early man saw Venus as another god, a lesser god of the darkness, and they worshipped and feared it.
Modern man came along on the evolutionary road and believed the sun-of-god was the Son-of-God and Venus was Lucifer, and he worshipped and feared them, and he created religions to explain these concepts so people wouldn't fear death. The people of the world created some 25 dying demigod saviors as supplemental gods to the One God (the Sun). People wanted to believe there was a power greater than themselves from whom they could gain protection from their fears, but what they have failed to realize is, that after 6,000 or more years of recorded history, there is no god more powerful than themselves. There is no god of the day to worship nor is there a god of the night to fear. Modern man is still evolving toward a higher existence that is one with universal interconnectedness where there are no gods, no demons, no dying demigod saviors, and no man-made religions to worship and fear.
top mosker said:
Well the atmosphere where that star use to reside in where did it come from. You are saying that the star was the first thing. Oh and your proof of that star do you have a peice of it. What about time, how many years ago did it happen. How would you measure time though. The essence of time had to come from somewhere. How would you measure time during the time of that star. What did it orbit around. Now what is the Fact again.
~ Warrior 61 ><>
Aborted_Fetus said:
Atheist and everyone else in the world takes ideas from longer than 2000 years. I mean you say how can you interpret something literally. You obviously don't understand it so how can you say there are contradictions. Show me some. Please. I mean the Bible is a book of accounts of what took place and was said by eyewitnesses during the time of other eye witnesses and prophesies that have been fulfilled or some not fulfilled yet. I mean what is contradicting in it. Of course Christians quote from that book if I am trying to prove it right or wrong i have to quote it I mean if you talk about history you quote history. That is rather stupid to not quote from the Bible if you are discussing it.
~ Warrior61 ><>
It seems like we are all coming back to the fact that we cannot explain where the origin of the Universe came from, be it God or from the Big Bang. No one can explain where God came from, and no one can explain where the mass of matter and energy that exploded in the Big Bang came from. We will never know where it came from. Both theories state that they were always there. Be that as it may, wouldn't it make more sense to believe the theory that has scientific proof to back it up rather than the one that says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"?
Just one of many I have looked into:
And while we are on the subject of Mary, think about this: Mary was said to be a virgin. What married woman is a vigin? What man would marry a woman that wouldn't have sex with him? Also, what happened to a woman who was found to be cheating on her husband? She would be stoned to death. Don't you think it's highly possible that Mary got knocked up by some other guy, and then just claimed it was a miracle from God? I think so.
Another thing: Noah's Ark. I found this on another website and I found it rather interesting:
Seems a bit cramped to me. Also, where did all this water come from to produce a world-wide flood? And wouldn't there be some geological evidence of a world-wide flood?
I mean, you say that the Bible is a book of accounts of eye witnesses, but these accounts do not exactly hold up to some simple logical analysis.
- Mathew 1:16
- Luke 3:23
And while we are on the subject of Mary, think about this: Mary was said to be a virgin. What married woman is a vigin? What man would marry a woman that wouldn't have sex with him? Also, what happened to a woman who was found to be cheating on her husband? She would be stoned to death. Don't you think it's highly possible that Mary got knocked up by some other guy, and then just claimed it was a miracle from God? I think so.
Another thing: Noah's Ark. I found this on another website and I found it rather interesting:
Seems a bit cramped to me. Also, where did all this water come from to produce a world-wide flood? And wouldn't there be some geological evidence of a world-wide flood?
I mean, you say that the Bible is a book of accounts of eye witnesses, but these accounts do not exactly hold up to some simple logical analysis.
One geneology is Mary's and one of Joseph's. Not a contradiction.Aborted_Fetus said:
She wasn't married when she was told she was going to have Jesus, and that virgin birth fulfilled every prophecy given about it. So no contradiction there.
Well it wasn't going to be luxurious I mean they were on a cruise with animals. Now what animals that were on there we don't know, we know that the rain came from God. First you are going to have to accept the Supernatural. The main part though that you are missing is that God's plan was carried out. You don't believe in God so you don't believe in the supernatural so you can't possibly understand.
Forgot something.
Many scientist agree that there was a world wide flood.
You ask me earlier why don't Christians quote from something other than the Bible. I am a Christian and I used the Pythagorean theorem earlier so doesn' t that contradict what you said. Now what other passages in the Bible do you think contradict each other.
~ Warrior61 ><>
Many scientist agree that there was a world wide flood.
You ask me earlier why don't Christians quote from something other than the Bible. I am a Christian and I used the Pythagorean theorem earlier so doesn' t that contradict what you said. Now what other passages in the Bible do you think contradict each other.
~ Warrior61 ><>
"And Jacob begat Joseph"
"the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"
Where is Mary's geneology? Those are two quote that say that Joseph's father is two different people.
"First you are going to have to accept the Supernatural."
No. No I do not. That is the problem I have had forever. I cannot just accept something, when my logic tells me otherwise. What kind of proof is that, to tell someone just to accept it. That is my argument, I will not just accept it.
And by the way, that Pythagorean Theorm analogy is completely garbage. How does the Universe + Humans = God? It's just not a logical, and it does not make sense.
"the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"
Where is Mary's geneology? Those are two quote that say that Joseph's father is two different people.
"First you are going to have to accept the Supernatural."
No. No I do not. That is the problem I have had forever. I cannot just accept something, when my logic tells me otherwise. What kind of proof is that, to tell someone just to accept it. That is my argument, I will not just accept it.
And by the way, that Pythagorean Theorm analogy is completely garbage. How does the Universe + Humans = God? It's just not a logical, and it does not make sense.
So instead a perfect being that came from nowhere made everthing imperfect, just for a laugh?
But also i feel this chance thing needs a slight explanation, im sure in this thread i noticed some figures to do with how huge the number of planets like ours there are, that increases the odds incredably, life is just molecules in a different form to inanimate objects, if chance of evolution is what you wish to talk about its not chance its natural selection passing on surviving genetics, which is why we arnt perfect as it doesnt screen for imperfections and they get passed on too. If chance of creation of the universe is your problem, then it shouldnt be, we have no clue what was around before the universe so calculating probability is impossible, saying god did it is no more viable than saying two elements came together and exploded and hey presto, universe.
How about this pyramid?
universe + humans = some form of matter before visable existance
You'll probably add a stage to the top of this saying 'god - creator of matter' but it is unnecessary for the pyramid to function as a working system, it fits fine so wheres the need?
Also the default is not 'god did it' the default situation is 'we dont know' and thats how it stays for a very long time since we'll never know what was before everything that is currently visable, but theories are always welcome.
So 'first you must accept im right' we can all try this we'll never get anywhere.
Fetus - I've Never seen that ark info before, very interesting.
Aborted_Fetus said:
The point is you have to have something greater thats all that is with the pythagorean theorem. We disagree, thats obvious, but my thing on supernatural is that im going to have to say there is a God and he has powers beyond anything of our understanding. I'm sure you would accept it if God did a miracle right in front of you or would you. you would probably just say that there was something that happened or some kind of scientific proof and call that reason. So right now no matter what I say you will call it garbage. I brought up the theorem because earlier you said why don't Christians quote from something else besides the Bible and I was just proving you wrong on that, in which I succeeded. It isn't even the fact about proven you wrong but that you understand that not all Christians are exactly alike. In fact most Christians I talk to say it is bad that I even speak with other people with different religions. It is so sad to say. I have found one common thing with Atheists that have posted stuff on here and that is they see Christians talk the talk but dont walk the walk. I know its stupid to see a person say something and then do something totally opposite. I know where yall are coming from. The other thing I have found on here is that there are alot of the same arguments happening. I think that is rediculous also. No matter what each side says neither takes. But I still continue to post hoping that some one will hear. The geneology thing by the way is: Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews and at that time they were known by there father so that would be Joseph's Geneology. Luke is Mary's, and the cool thing about Luke's is that it goes all the way back to God, both geneology's show Christ as king of the Jews and well King of everything (God).
Lemming3k said:So instead a perfect being that came from nowhere made everthing imperfect, just for a laugh?
But also i feel this chance thing needs a slight explanation, im sure in this thread i noticed some figures to do with how huge the number of planets like ours there are, that increases the odds incredably, life is just molecules in a different form to inanimate objects, if chance of evolution is what you wish to talk about its not chance its natural selection passing on surviving genetics, which is why we arnt perfect as it doesnt screen for imperfections and they get passed on too. If chance of creation of the universe is your problem, then it shouldnt be, we have no clue what was around before the universe so calculating probability is impossible, saying god did it is no more viable than saying two elements came together and exploded and hey presto, universe.
How about this pyramid?
universe + humans = some form of matter before visable existance
You'll probably add a stage to the top of this saying 'god - creator of matter' but it is unnecessary for the pyramid to function as a working system, it fits fine so wheres the need?
Also the default is not 'god did it' the default situation is 'we dont know' and thats how it stays for a very long time since we'll never know what was before everything that is currently visable, but theories are always welcome.
So 'first you must accept im right' we can all try this we'll never get anywhere.
Fetus - I've Never seen that ark info before, very interesting.
My point is that those two elements had to exist in some place set in time and they had to get put there some how. There has to be something outside of time you can't go around that. You don't have to say I am right if you understand the greatest thing as being God or some creator there has to be something supernatural.
~ Warrior61 ><>
Well now, that depends. God would have to appear in front of me or do something so significant that I couldn't help but believe in him. Many of these "miracles" we hear about, such as the seeing Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich and the like are totally bogus.
(Side note: As I typed the above paragraph, I paused at the word "him" when referring to God. I was taught in Catholic high school to spell it "Him" with a capital H. Why is this? If I was talking about my friend Dan, I wouldn't say, "Yeah, me and Him went to the store." I don't get why it is capitolized when refering the God, and not with any other name. Hence, I will keep it lower case.)
You used a math equation that makes absolutely no sense in your analogy, how is that succeeding? Sure, you quoted something other than the Bible, but if it does not make any sense, how does that help?
And yes, I know Christians are not all alike, but my point is, the Bible is really the only source of information you have to go by. I mean think about it, if you did not have the Bible, what else would you have?
Please explain to me how you can just blindly believe in something, and why. The Christian beliefs and the idea of God does not make logical sense and has no scientific proof to back it up. Do you feel the need to believe in something supernatural, maybe to curb the fear associated with death? I just don't get it. Personally, I really have no fear of death, I have no problem knowing that when I die, I will simply rot in the ground. I can't help but be skeptical, especially when you claim that I just have to believe.
One more thing. There are hundreds of religions in this world. What makes you so sure that yours is the only correct religion, and that there is God, not Allah, or whatever. All these other religions have their texts to back up their story, how do you know that yours is the true religion?
And now that I am kind of on a roll here, what is the phrase "In God We Trust" still doing on U.S. currency? Who is we? We is the nation as a whole, and I, being part of this nation, do not trust in God, therefore, the phrase is inaccurate. Yes, I know it is part of our heritage to have it, but what about people that do not believe in God?
And why is that dumbass Bush saying that "God speaks through me"? What about all the Muslim people in this country? What about all the Buddist people in this country? What about all the atheist people in this country? How does he think it will make people feel that he makes political decisions that will effect the entire country based on a god that they do not believe in? It makes me extremely angry that he has the arrogance to say that his God is guiding him to make decisions for an entire group of people of different religions. I'm sure you can at least try to look at this objectively and see that it is not right. I mean, if he were to go on national television tomorrow and say that Buddah tells him how to run the country, you wouldn't be offended? It just does not sit well with me.
</rant>