Three Experiments Challenging SRT

This does not make more sense than in Hafele and Keating experiment.
That is an admission of the unsuitability of your untrained (or perhaps, mis-trained) intuition to deal with precision tests of reality. That is not an actual criticism of the precision tests of reality.

Reality doesn't care what makes sense to you or not. Science doesn't care what personally makes sense to you or not, because as the agreement between theory and experiment shows, science does seem to make sense of reality.
 
Or to put it another way, what you are saying (I think) is that if Joe and I had two absolutely identical clocks, and he was on Everest while I at sea level, his would run faster. But is that really time dilation, or just because the mechanical process of his clock is in some way affected by less gravity ? To draw another, most probably naive analogy, I could get water vapour in my clock, and that could slow the mechanical process down substantially in comparison to his. That's not time dilation, is it ?

First, there is always some risk of when attempting to describe these things in everyday terminology. And even more when attempting to break it down into components, as I have been... Keep in mind also that the only way "I" can try to describe this is heavily influenced by a philosophical perspective.

I sometimes think of SR as establishing two major concepts.

One is that reality is completely observer dependent and how we can from what we see project that, to an understanding of what someone else would see. This part is covered well within the context of the simultaneity or relativity, which you seem to understand. This also extends to the understanding that the rules or laws of physics are the same for all inertial observers. Observer's who may be moving relative to one another but are not accelerating, relative to one another.

The other, deals more with an attempt to describe the world as it exists, beyond those subjective experiences. What is the underlying truth of the world, that we see from where we each stand. The problem is we can only reach any global or underlying understanding from those subjective perspectives.

So, on to time dilation, which is the essence of your question.

Trying to define what time "is", beyond our subjective experience, is a subject that may never have an entirely complete and satisfying conclusion. All we can really say with certainty is that time is, for us.., an observation and measurement of change. Understanding this it does appear from experience that the rate of change of anything we are able to observe is affected by where in a gravitational field it is located. In your example identical clocks at sea level and on top of Mt. Everest. You add the question, is this really time dilation or maybe just that the mechanism of the clock works differently in those two locations. The answer is yes, to both!

Remember, for us to associate time with a clock is a subjective abstraction. Where the physics is concerned it is really not how our experience of time might change in different locations, it is how the change represented by that subjective observation does change, under different conditions. And though there are many things that can and do affect the rate of clocks, time dilation is specifically associated with velocity (SR) and gravity and/or accelleration (GR). Mostly because these are conditions that define our frame of reference with the context of physics.

So to return to your question, "... But is that really time dilation, or just because the mechanical process of his clock is in some way affected by less gravity ?...". Again, yes and yes. Think here that, "today" we use very accurate atomic clocks and they are affected by where in a gravitational field they are. "Time dilation" is nothing more than observing and at this time.., today.., knowing that change occurs predictably at different rates depending on where in a gravitational field you are located. Time is just the way we measure the rate of change.

The fact that even the most fundamental changes, those associated with atomic functions, both those utilized in atomic clocks and the apparent half lives of subatomic particles, all seem to be affected predictably by velocity (SR) and gravity and/or accelleration (GR), each in their own way, demonstrates that it is real. The changes do happen and we call and measure those changes, as time.

Time dilation is a definition and description, of how the velocity or location within gravitational field, predictably affects, the rate of change, uniformly.
 
That is an admission of the unsuitability of your untrained (or perhaps, mis-trained) intuition to deal with precision tests of reality. That is not an actual criticism of the precision tests of reality.

Reality doesn't care what makes sense to you or not. Science doesn't care what personally makes sense to you or not, because as the agreement between theory and experiment shows, science does seem to make sense of reality.
Gentlemen scientists treat outrageously and do violence to reality.
Misrepresented and defamed her.
You accused the reality in what it never did.
 
Gentlemen scientists treat outrageously and do violence to reality.
Misrepresented and defamed her.
You accused the reality in what it never did.

What?

I mean that made even less sense to me than some other translations. I cannot find anyway to rearrange the words that they do make sense.

Maybe it is just me.
 
Gentlemen scientists treat outrageously and do violence to reality.
Misrepresented and defamed her.
You accused the reality in what it never did.
That is not an actual criticism of the precision tests of reality. You have been given many chances to actually criticize experiments but all you do is criticize their self-consistent results for not meeting your baseless expectations. Thus it is you who have misrepresented reality.

Reality doesn't care what makes sense to you or not. It is not your girlfriend.
 
It is easy to calculate that (because of the rotation of the Earth) a observer at the equator is moving at a speed of 1700 km/h relative to a observer who is on the pole.
Relativistic correction is of the order $$10^{-12}$$.
If there is a delay of time, it could be installed without the need for swindling with used a flight of the plane (in 1971) and not using the show for fools with GPS-satellites today.
 
Reality doesn't care what makes sense to you or not. It is not your girlfriend.
Is it your?
I do not think so.

I understand reality better then you, I am sure .
I know answers to many questions ("Why blows the wind?" - simplest of them), which you do not know the answer.
I understand nature better than you.
 
What?

I mean that made even less sense to me than some other translations. I cannot find anyway to rearrange the words that they do make sense.

Maybe it is just me.
1. Time dilation - a lie.

2. $$E=\frac{m_oc^2}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}}$$ - a lie.

3. Your statement that you were able electron to overclock up to energies, which are measured in MeV, GeV and TeV - a lie.

4. Your statement that the electron has become heavier than a proton - a lie.

...
 
Gentlemen scientists treat outrageously and do violence to reality.
Misrepresented and defamed her.
You accused the reality in what it never did.

Though this post of Masterov's perplexed the subsequent two posters, it does seem that he is having genuine problems with translation. He referred to scientists as male(gentlemen) and reality as female (her).

This could be because in some languages, the definite article preceding a noun makes that noun either male or female, even though it's neutral. I know nothing of Russian, but a lot of Greek, and for example, in the Greek;

- The scientist is here .. Ο επιστήμονας είναι εδώ; the 'Ο' (omicron) being the definite article, and, specifically denoting the masculine.

- Reality is here .. Η πραγματικότητα είναι εδώ; the 'H' (eta) being the definite article and denoting feminine.

A couple more - The sea .. Η θάλασσα, female gender. The ocean .. Ο ωκεανός, male gender.

Go figure why.

But I can see how his stuff sometimes seems silly.
 
Though this post of Masterov's perplexed the subsequent two posters, it does seem that he is having genuine problems with translation. He referred to scientists as male(gentlemen) and reality as female (her).

This could be because in some languages, the definite article preceding a noun makes that noun either male or female, even though it's neutral. I know nothing of Russian, but a lot of Greek, and for example, in the Greek;

- The scientist is here .. Ο επιστήμονας είναι εδώ; the 'Ο' (omicron) being the definite article, and, specifically denoting the masculine.

- Reality is here .. Η πραγματικότητα είναι εδώ; the 'H' (eta) being the definite article and denoting feminine.

A couple more - The sea .. Η θάλασσα, female gender. The ocean .. Ο ωκεανός, male gender.

Go figure why.

But I can see how his stuff sometimes seems silly.

Masterov has received a great deal of latitude on the translation issue. Still, it seems that he has no trouble dealing out "lie and liar", when he disagrees or does not believe something in the western public knowledge base.
 
Hi Masterov; In post #950 you said ..

We discuss the relativistic effects SRT.
The effects of time dilation (caused by gravity) in this subject is no discussed.


Can I understand from that, that you have no quarrel with gravitational time dilation ?
 
Masterov has received a great deal of latitude on the translation issue. Still, it seems that he has no trouble dealing out "lie and liar", when he disagrees or does not believe something in the western public knowledge base.

Hi OnlyMe; Yes, it's a bit of a moving feast, isn't it ? In my post above, I simply wanted to point out what did really look like an obvious translation error.

BTW, Thank you for your post #962. It has really helped me a good deal, in understanding some important things I had never understood before. I am keen to go a little further and will do so soon.
 
Hi Masterov; In post #950 you said ..

We discuss the relativistic effects SRT.
The effects of time dilation (caused by gravity) in this subject is no discussed.


Can I understand from that, that you have no quarrel with gravitational time dilation ?
I have no interest for discuss about gravitational time dilation?
 
You have however, mentioned it on several occasions in this thread. Can you give me a simple answer please; Are you OK with gravitational time dilation ?
I had not thought about this question long enough to have their own opinion, which I could be argue.
 
You might however, be a little more cautious when the word 'lie' or 'liar' turns up. These are quite offensive terms to most English speaking people.
I'll take that into consideration.
I often give Russian subtext to understand me correctly.
 
I had not thought about this question long enough to have their own opinion, which I could be argue.

That's a rather odd position to be in. You have such emphatic views on SR yet you haven't thought about GR long enough ? Odd !

I would have thought it essential to come to terms with GR first (which is what I'm trying to do at the moment in my discussions with others here). Also, GR is a matter far closer to this threads topic, as compared to sun spots, blowing winds, etc, which you readily divert to.

Can I ask you a favour ? You seem to be a brilliant kind of a guy - have a good think about GR and let us have your view - I would certainly value it.
 
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First, there is always some risk of when attempting to describe these things in everyday terminology. And even more when attempting to break it down into components, as I have been... Keep in mind also that the only way "I" can try to describe this is heavily influenced by a philosophical perspective.

I sometimes think of SR as establishing two major concepts.

One is that reality is completely observer dependent and how we can from what we see project that, to an understanding of what someone else would see. This part is covered well within the context of the simultaneity or relativity, which you seem to understand. This also extends to the understanding that the rules or laws of physics are the same for all inertial observers. Observer's who may be moving relative to one another but are not accelerating, relative to one another.

The other, deals more with an attempt to describe the world as it exists, beyond those subjective experiences. What is the underlying truth of the world, that we see from where we each stand. The problem is we can only reach any global or underlying understanding from those subjective perspectives.

So, on to time dilation, which is the essence of your question.

Trying to define what time "is", beyond our subjective experience, is a subject that may never have an entirely complete and satisfying conclusion. All we can really say with certainty is that time is, for us.., an observation and measurement of change. Understanding this it does appear from experience that the rate of change of anything we are able to observe is affected by where in a gravitational field it is located. In your example identical clocks at sea level and on top of Mt. Everest. You add the question, is this really time dilation or maybe just that the mechanism of the clock works differently in those two locations. The answer is yes, to both!

Remember, for us to associate time with a clock is a subjective abstraction. Where the physics is concerned it is really not how our experience of time might change in different locations, it is how the change represented by that subjective observation does change, under different conditions. And though there are many things that can and do affect the rate of clocks, time dilation is specifically associated with velocity (SR) and gravity and/or accelleration (GR). Mostly because these are conditions that define our frame of reference with the context of physics.

So to return to your question, "... But is that really time dilation, or just because the mechanical process of his clock is in some way affected by less gravity ?...". Again, yes and yes. Think here that, "today" we use very accurate atomic clocks and they are affected by where in a gravitational field they are. "Time dilation" is nothing more than observing and at this time.., today.., knowing that change occurs predictably at different rates depending on where in a gravitational field you are located. Time is just the way we measure the rate of change.

The fact that even the most fundamental changes, those associated with atomic functions, both those utilized in atomic clocks and the apparent half lives of subatomic particles, all seem to be affected predictably by velocity (SR) and gravity and/or accelleration (GR), each in their own way, demonstrates that it is real. The changes do happen and we call and measure those changes, as time.

Time dilation is a definition and description, of how the velocity or location within gravitational field, predictably affects, the rate of change, uniformly.

Hi OnlyMe. Mainly from the above, I think I understand relativistic effects in terms of gravitational fields and time dilation thereof. So thanks for that.

I'm trying to get my mind around velocity (SR) and acceleration (GR), and I'm not clear on whether orbital motion is considered velocity or acceleration.

As you and others discuss orbital motion of atomic clocks in terms of SR, that would indicate velocity, however, I thought from previous posts (though I could be mistaken) that SR involves velocity in a straight line only. Could you please clear up this point ?

Also, underlined by me above; out of interest, what is your philosophical perspective ?
 
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