Lucifer does not appear in the Bible. Moreover, the time of the creation of angels is never specified and prior to the formation of the inhabitable universe, there was a mixture of water and sky.
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Thousands of Religious Sects - Which one is right?
- Thread starter nds1
- Start date
Ok here you go:Give me the the verse from the actual Bible where Jesus says this. How about backing up what you say with some scripture.
“and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father” (John 14:12)
Here is Jesus saying that we are like Gods:
“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:34)
"Know ye not that ye are gods, and sons of the most high?" Psalm (82:6)
I already backed up that claim in my previous posts, but you probably ignored it...here it is again:nds1 said:Again, let's back this outrageous claim up with some scripture. And it has to be scripture from the actual Bible, not the gnostic scriptures which were rejected by the early Christian fathers.
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy
Ghost it shall not be forgiven" - (Luke 12:10)
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word
against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever
speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither
in this world, neither in the world to come" - (Matthew 12:31-32)
"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin" - Mark 3:28-29
Jesus seems to be making the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit seem higher than the Father and the Son (the highest in the trinity)....
The Gospel of Thomas isn't a gnostic text....its an early Christian writing discovered in Egypt...also again why do you talk about Early Christian fathers....why do you not talk about things Jesus says...not just what the "Christians" say...nds1 said:I can tell you one thing. Christianity sure as hell isn't based on the Gospel of Thomas which you so eloquently quoted from.
All of your quotes of Jesus are obsolete since they are not in the actual bible. Gnostic Christians might agree with you as to the validity of the Gospel of Thomas, but mainstream Christians only consider the books in the Bible to be valid.
There are many paralells in the Gospel of Thomas and in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and other scriptures already in the Bible....for instance here again Jesus is saying the kingdom of God is within you:
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21)
And here again:
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (Corinthians 6:19)
Here again Jesus is talking about blaspheme of the holy spirit:
Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven." - (Thomas, 44)
Clearly any fool can see that its the same Jesus....different scripture...the Bible was compiled by The Church so they picked and chose what they wanted in it....
So why don't you base it on actual Christian scripture?? Are the ministers higher than Jesus now? Do they override what Jesus says?nds1 said:I'm basing it on what a minister, or Christian practioner, has said to me. LG would be proud.
Is that so...so where does it say so in the Bible?nds1 said:Yeah, and Christianity excludes any of your avatars from being equal to God. ONLY JESUS. No one else. Not Rama, Krishnu, or whoever else. ONLY JESUS. So in Christianity, ONLY JESUS is equal to God. No one else.
So you believe A, while Christians believe B.
I used lots of scripture in my previous posts but you just ignored them...nds1 said:You tell me to use scripture when you never do. And when you do, you quote from invalid sources which are not the bible. Nice try.
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You know nothing you quoted contradicts anything....Hinduism says almost exactly the samething, there is one God above all, one absolute truth, God is within us all, etc....Okay VitalOne, here's some more scripture for you:
Eph 4:1-7
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
KJV
Wow, what a jackpot I found here. This confirms the Christian belief that there is only ONE TRUTH. And that truth is that Jesus is the ONE LORD, exluding Krishnu, Rama, etc. Also, God the father is above ALL, even the Holy Spirit. So VitalOne, you misinterpreted whatever passage you read which you thought through logic meant that the Holy Spirit was actually above God. You are wrong.
So God the father is above ALL, including the Holy Spirit.
Also nothing is above the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost...
But Jesus says here:nds1 said:Mark 13:31-32
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
NKJV
ONLY God knows when the second coming of Jesus will be. Not even Jesus himself! So clearly, Jesus is not equal to God, and neither is the Holy Spirit. No one is equal to God, or the Father.
I love this passage from the Bible because it also proves that God is a separate conscious entity from Jesus and the Holy Spirit which thinks and acts on his own, just as Jesus and the Holy Spirit do.
"Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One" - (John 10:28-30)
Jesus is equal to God but Jesus doesn't have knowledge of when the coming will be...its pretty simple...
When does Hinduism argue that the Bible is completely false? Many Hindu saints supported religions like Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.....nds1 said:Hinduism argues that the Bible is false, and that Jesus IS equal to God, along with many other avatars.
One religion is right. One is wrong.
Commentaries mean nothing....nothing at all...I mean like nothing...Heb 1:1-2:1
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
"You are My Son,Today I have begotten You"?
And again:
"I will be to Him a Father,And He shall be to Me a Son"?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
"Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He says:
"Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
10 And:
"You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain;And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,And they will be changed.But You are the same,And Your years will not fail."
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
"Sit at My right hand,Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
NKJV
Here is some commentary from my Bible software on this passage:
It MAY have been that it was by him that the perfections of God were made known before the incarnation to the angelic world, but on that point the Scriptures are silent.
(2) On earth he was the brightness of the divine glory, and the express image of his person:
(a) It was by him, eminently, that God was made known to human beings-as it is by the beams of the sun that that is made known.
(b) He bore an exact resemblance to God. He was just such a being as we should suppose God to be were he to become incarnate, and to act as a man. He was the embodied representation of the Deity. He was pure-like God. He was benevolent-like God. He spake to the winds and storms-like God. He healed diseases-like God. He raised the dead-like God. He wielded the power which God only can wield, and he manifested a character in all respects like what we should suppose God would evince if he appeared in human flesh, and dwelt among people and this is saying much. It is in fact saying that the account in the Gospels is real, and that the Christian religion is true. Uninspired men could never have drawn such a character as that of Jesus Christ, unless that character had actually existed. The attempt has often been made to describe God, or to show how be would speak and act if he came down to earth.
I almost laughed when reading this commentary...the Old Testament God is full of anger, etc...in fact he stopped the Sun just to kill someonends1 said:Thus, the Hindus speak of the incarnations of Vishnu; and thus Homer, and Virgil, and most of the ancient poets, speak of the appearance of the gods, and describe them as they were supposed to appear. But how different from the character of the Lord Jesus! THEY are full of passion, and lust, and anger, and contention, and strife; they come to mingle in battles, and to take part with contending armies, and they evince the same spirit as men, and are merely "men of great power, and more gigantic passions;
Also in Hinduism God nor an incarnation can truly ever be angry, passionate, lustful, etc...because those things are of material nature and God is never in contact with material nature, even if it appears so...
Ironically this is almost exactly how Hinduism describes an incarnation of God........nds1 said:"but Christ is GOD IN HUMAN NATURE. The form is that of man; the spirit is that of God. He walks, and eats, and sleeps as a man; he thinks, and speaks, and acts like God. He was born as a man-but the angels adored him as God. As a man he ate; yet by a word he created food for thousands, as if he were God. Like
NOTE: This text has been truncated to the maximum allowable by copyright.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)
Don't worry, I'll be coming back with a lot more scripture than this.
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"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy
Ghost it shall not be forgiven" - (Luke 12:10)
VitalOne, this is your personal interpretation of the verse posted above. Where in that verse or anywhere in the bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is above God? You were way off base with your outrageous and almost comical interpretation of this verse to say that the Holy Ghost/Spirit is above God.
Now let's see what this verse really means from enlightened Christian practitioners as LG would recommend:
Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database.
Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)
[Speaketh against the Holy Ghost] The word "ghost" means "spirit," and probably refers here to the "divine nature" of Christ-the power by which he performed his miracles. There is no evidence that it refers to the third person of the Trinity; and the meaning of the whole passage may be: "He that speaks against me as a man of Nazareth-that speaks contemptuously of my humble birth, etc., may be pardoned; but he that reproaches my divine nature, charging me with being in league with Satan, and blaspheming the power of God manifestly displayed "by me," can never obtain forgiveness."
The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database.
Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press
Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men. The general principle. Atonement by Christ at Calvary would be sufficient to remit the guilt of all sins, even the most aggravated forms of slander against God (blasphemy). One sin, however, is declared unpardonable: whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit. In view of Jesus' previously stated principle, this unpardonableness cannot be due to inadequacy of the atonement, nor may we infer any peculiar sacredness of the Third Person of the Trinity. Many explain this sin as the attributing of the miraculous works of the Spirit to Satanic power (cf. Mark 3:29-30), and see no possibility of its being committed today (so Chafer, Broadus, Gaebelein). Others, however, regard the accusation of the Pharisees as being symptomatic, and not the sin itself. The following verses point to the corrupt heart as the cause of the sin. The particular function of the Spirit is to bring conviction and repentance, and make men receptive to the invitation of Christ. Hence hearts that hate God and blaspheme Christ (1 Tim 1:13) may yet be convicted and brought to repentance by the Spirit. But he who rejects every overture of the Spirit removes himself from the only force that can lead him to forgiveness (John 3:36). That such a settled state can be reached in this life is clearly implied by the passage. The OT describes these as sinning "with a high hand" (Num 15:30, ASV); for them no atonement was possible. Men cannot read hearts, and thus cannot judge when others have reached such a state. The real possibility of this sin does not weaken the gospel invitation, "Whosoever will," for by its very nature such will have no willingness to accept. As for the Pharisees of Jesus' audience, it is not stated whether or not they had fully committed this sin, but the warning is clear. Their considerable instruction made their responsibility great; their previous hostility showed their determined unbelief .
_________________________________________________
Nice try though VitalOne.
So the Holy Spirit IS NOT above God.
We really have to clear up this issue of equality to God.
Question 1: What exactly do you mean by equal when you say Jesus is equal to God? Equal in what? Power? Strength? Knowledge?
Question 2: Do you consider avatars like Rama and Krishna to be individual beings with their own "minds" and abililty to make their own individual decisions, even against God, as spirits in the spiritual world they are currently in?
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy
Ghost it shall not be forgiven" - (Luke 12:10)
VitalOne said:Jesus seems to be making the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit seem higher than the Father and the Son (the highest in the trinity)....
Also nothing is above the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost...
VitalOne, this is your personal interpretation of the verse posted above. Where in that verse or anywhere in the bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is above God? You were way off base with your outrageous and almost comical interpretation of this verse to say that the Holy Ghost/Spirit is above God.
Now let's see what this verse really means from enlightened Christian practitioners as LG would recommend:
Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database.
Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)
[Speaketh against the Holy Ghost] The word "ghost" means "spirit," and probably refers here to the "divine nature" of Christ-the power by which he performed his miracles. There is no evidence that it refers to the third person of the Trinity; and the meaning of the whole passage may be: "He that speaks against me as a man of Nazareth-that speaks contemptuously of my humble birth, etc., may be pardoned; but he that reproaches my divine nature, charging me with being in league with Satan, and blaspheming the power of God manifestly displayed "by me," can never obtain forgiveness."
The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database.
Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press
Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men. The general principle. Atonement by Christ at Calvary would be sufficient to remit the guilt of all sins, even the most aggravated forms of slander against God (blasphemy). One sin, however, is declared unpardonable: whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit. In view of Jesus' previously stated principle, this unpardonableness cannot be due to inadequacy of the atonement, nor may we infer any peculiar sacredness of the Third Person of the Trinity. Many explain this sin as the attributing of the miraculous works of the Spirit to Satanic power (cf. Mark 3:29-30), and see no possibility of its being committed today (so Chafer, Broadus, Gaebelein). Others, however, regard the accusation of the Pharisees as being symptomatic, and not the sin itself. The following verses point to the corrupt heart as the cause of the sin. The particular function of the Spirit is to bring conviction and repentance, and make men receptive to the invitation of Christ. Hence hearts that hate God and blaspheme Christ (1 Tim 1:13) may yet be convicted and brought to repentance by the Spirit. But he who rejects every overture of the Spirit removes himself from the only force that can lead him to forgiveness (John 3:36). That such a settled state can be reached in this life is clearly implied by the passage. The OT describes these as sinning "with a high hand" (Num 15:30, ASV); for them no atonement was possible. Men cannot read hearts, and thus cannot judge when others have reached such a state. The real possibility of this sin does not weaken the gospel invitation, "Whosoever will," for by its very nature such will have no willingness to accept. As for the Pharisees of Jesus' audience, it is not stated whether or not they had fully committed this sin, but the warning is clear. Their considerable instruction made their responsibility great; their previous hostility showed their determined unbelief .
_________________________________________________
Nice try though VitalOne.
So the Holy Spirit IS NOT above God.
Jesus is equal to God but Jesus doesn't have knowledge of when the coming will be...its pretty simple...
We really have to clear up this issue of equality to God.
Question 1: What exactly do you mean by equal when you say Jesus is equal to God? Equal in what? Power? Strength? Knowledge?
Question 2: Do you consider avatars like Rama and Krishna to be individual beings with their own "minds" and abililty to make their own individual decisions, even against God, as spirits in the spiritual world they are currently in?
LG or anyone, can you answer these questions?
Question 1: What exactly do you mean by equal when you say Jesus is equal to God? Equal in what? Power? Strength? Knowledge?
Question 2: Do you consider avatars like Rama and Krishna to be individual beings with their own "minds" and abililty to make their own individual decisions, even against God, as spirits in the spiritual world they are currently in?
Question 1: What exactly do you mean by equal when you say Jesus is equal to God? Equal in what? Power? Strength? Knowledge?
Question 2: Do you consider avatars like Rama and Krishna to be individual beings with their own "minds" and abililty to make their own individual decisions, even against God, as spirits in the spiritual world they are currently in?
I wasn't "trying" anything....my interpretation is a literal interpretation, you know as in what Jesus himself says, your interpretation is some guy saying no thats not what Christ meant, even though he literally says this referring to the "holy ghost" over and over again in the Bible (at least 3 times) it doesn't matter, he must have meant the spirit of Christ not the holy ghost as he literally says, thats what it must have been...hahaha....its just an attempt to work around what Jesus Christ himself says to support to Church, eg....even though Jesus Christ literally says this, thats not what he must have meant..."And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy
Ghost it shall not be forgiven" - (Luke 12:10)
VitalOne, this is your personal interpretation of the verse posted above. Where in that verse or anywhere in the bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is above God? You were way off base with your outrageous and almost comical interpretation of this verse to say that the Holy Ghost/Spirit is above God.
Now let's see what this verse really means from enlightened Christian practitioners as LG would recommend:
Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database.
Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)
[Speaketh against the Holy Ghost] The word "ghost" means "spirit," and probably refers here to the "divine nature" of Christ-the power by which he performed his miracles. There is no evidence that it refers to the third person of the Trinity; and the meaning of the whole passage may be: "He that speaks against me as a man of Nazareth-that speaks contemptuously of my humble birth, etc., may be pardoned; but he that reproaches my divine nature, charging me with being in league with Satan, and blaspheming the power of God manifestly displayed "by me," can never obtain forgiveness."
The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database.
Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press
Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men. The general principle. Atonement by Christ at Calvary would be sufficient to remit the guilt of all sins, even the most aggravated forms of slander against God (blasphemy). One sin, however, is declared unpardonable: whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit. In view of Jesus' previously stated principle, this unpardonableness cannot be due to inadequacy of the atonement, nor may we infer any peculiar sacredness of the Third Person of the Trinity. Many explain this sin as the attributing of the miraculous works of the Spirit to Satanic power (cf. Mark 3:29-30), and see no possibility of its being committed today (so Chafer, Broadus, Gaebelein). Others, however, regard the accusation of the Pharisees as being symptomatic, and not the sin itself. The following verses point to the corrupt heart as the cause of the sin. The particular function of the Spirit is to bring conviction and repentance, and make men receptive to the invitation of Christ. Hence hearts that hate God and blaspheme Christ (1 Tim 1:13) may yet be convicted and brought to repentance by the Spirit. But he who rejects every overture of the Spirit removes himself from the only force that can lead him to forgiveness (John 3:36). That such a settled state can be reached in this life is clearly implied by the passage. The OT describes these as sinning "with a high hand" (Num 15:30, ASV); for them no atonement was possible. Men cannot read hearts, and thus cannot judge when others have reached such a state. The real possibility of this sin does not weaken the gospel invitation, "Whosoever will," for by its very nature such will have no willingness to accept. As for the Pharisees of Jesus' audience, it is not stated whether or not they had fully committed this sin, but the warning is clear. Their considerable instruction made their responsibility great; their previous hostility showed their determined unbelief .
_________________________________________________
Nice try though VitalOne.
So the Holy Spirit IS NOT above God.
So in other words you prefer to believe the words of some other guy (the guy who wrote that interpretation) instead of the words of Christ himself...
He's equal as in he has attained a nature like God's, he is not created, nor destroyed, "alpha and omega", he has become "the way, the truth", etc....nds1 said:We really have to clear up this issue of equality to God.
Question 1: What exactly do you mean by equal when you say Jesus is equal to God? Equal in what? Power? Strength? Knowledge?
"By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution" (BG 14.2)
Technically they can if they really wanted to...but the mind is material, the soul is above the mind, eternal, unborn, unchanging, witnessing all thingsnds1 said:Question 2: Do you consider avatars like Rama and Krishna to be individual beings with their own "minds" and abililty to make their own individual decisions, even against God, as spirits in the spiritual world they are currently in?
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy
Ghost it shall not be forgiven" - (Luke 12:10)
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word
against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever
speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither
in this world, neither in the world to come" - (Matthew 12:31-32)
"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin" - Mark 3:28-29
VitalOne,
Jesus never says that the Holy Spirit is above God. He never even comes close to it. The above verses are the only verses you are basing this theory of yours on. And these verses prove absolutely nothing.
By the way, in all three of those verses God is never mentioned. Jesus says if you sin against man, or the Son of man, you will be forgiven, but against the Holy Ghost and you won't. Nowhere in this verse does it say that the Holy Spirit is above God in any way, shape, or form. You just made that part up. What if you sin against God? What then? It is not mentioned in these verses. It only mentions Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Show me the verse where Jesus says, "The Holy Spirit is above everything, including God."
Also, what exactly do you mean when you say the Holy Spirit is "above" God? Above in power? Above in knowledge? Above in sacredness?
God is above the Holy Ghost/Spirit in POWER
Clearly the Holy Spirit cannot be more powerful than God. Heaven isn't a democracy, it is a dictatorship (in this case, the dictator however is loving and perfect). If God wants to do something, he does it. He doesn't ask the Holy Ghost or Jesus for permission. If the Holy Spirit wants to do something, he can only do it with permission from God. He can't just do whatever he wants. Also, God determines who goes to heaven or hell. He is the judge, not the Holy Spirit.
So basically, the Holy Spirit has zero power over God, therefore God is above him in power.
God is above the Holy Spirit in Knowledge
Only God knows when the second coming will be. No one else, including the holy spirit.
God is above the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is actually the Spirit of God
1 Thess 4:8
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
NKJV
The use of the word His shows possession. God "possesses" the Holy Spirit, not the other way around.
Eph 4:30-31
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
NKJV
1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God (since God must have a spirit, right?). So the Holy Spirit is being controlled BY God.
VitalOne, unless you back up your claim that the Holy Spirit is above God with scripture, you have no argument.
forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy
Ghost it shall not be forgiven" - (Luke 12:10)
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word
against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever
speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither
in this world, neither in the world to come" - (Matthew 12:31-32)
"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin" - Mark 3:28-29
VitalOne,
Jesus never says that the Holy Spirit is above God. He never even comes close to it. The above verses are the only verses you are basing this theory of yours on. And these verses prove absolutely nothing.
By the way, in all three of those verses God is never mentioned. Jesus says if you sin against man, or the Son of man, you will be forgiven, but against the Holy Ghost and you won't. Nowhere in this verse does it say that the Holy Spirit is above God in any way, shape, or form. You just made that part up. What if you sin against God? What then? It is not mentioned in these verses. It only mentions Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Show me the verse where Jesus says, "The Holy Spirit is above everything, including God."
Also, what exactly do you mean when you say the Holy Spirit is "above" God? Above in power? Above in knowledge? Above in sacredness?
God is above the Holy Ghost/Spirit in POWER
Clearly the Holy Spirit cannot be more powerful than God. Heaven isn't a democracy, it is a dictatorship (in this case, the dictator however is loving and perfect). If God wants to do something, he does it. He doesn't ask the Holy Ghost or Jesus for permission. If the Holy Spirit wants to do something, he can only do it with permission from God. He can't just do whatever he wants. Also, God determines who goes to heaven or hell. He is the judge, not the Holy Spirit.
So basically, the Holy Spirit has zero power over God, therefore God is above him in power.
God is above the Holy Spirit in Knowledge
Only God knows when the second coming will be. No one else, including the holy spirit.
God is above the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is actually the Spirit of God
1 Thess 4:8
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
NKJV
The use of the word His shows possession. God "possesses" the Holy Spirit, not the other way around.
Eph 4:30-31
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
NKJV
1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God (since God must have a spirit, right?). So the Holy Spirit is being controlled BY God.
VitalOne, unless you back up your claim that the Holy Spirit is above God with scripture, you have no argument.
nds1 said:Question 2: Do you consider avatars like Rama and Krishna to be individual beings with their own "minds" and abililty to make their own individual decisions, even against God, as spirits in the spiritual world they are currently in?
VitalOne said:Technically they can if they really wanted to...but the mind is material, the soul is above the mind, eternal, unborn, unchanging, witnessing all things
Jer 15:1
15:1 Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before Me, My mind would not be favorable toward this people. Cast them out of My sight, and let them go forth.
NKJV
Rom 8:27
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
NKJV
1 Sam 2:35
35 But now the LORD says: ...Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind.
NKJV
Lev 24:12
12 Then they put him in custody, that the mind of the LORD might be shown to them.
NKJV
Rom 11:34-35
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
NKJV
These verses prove that God actually has a mind. This means that your "mind is material" theory just got flushed down the toilet.
So we know that God is a spirit, he is pure spirit (NO SOUL), and can think (he has a mind).
You have also admitted in your last post that Rama and Krishna are individuals with their own spiritual minds and who can make their own personal decisions.
So you admit then, that all of the avatars, including Jesus, are all separate spiritual beings with their own spiritual minds and their own self wills.
By admitting this, you have made my original argument 100% true and validated my claim that Hinduism and Christianity have different beliefs about the reality of everything.
Here's why:
Christians also believe that all the angels and Jesus himself are all separate, independent spiritual beings with their own minds. Lucifer had his own mind and decided with that very mind to go against God. A third of the angels in heaven also used their spiritual minds to decide to go against God and with Lucifer.
Christians believe that the separate, independent, spiritual being named "Jesus," ranks number two to God in power, knowledge, ability, and everything else which involves greatness. Also, there is no spiritual being equal to Jesus.
Hinduism on the other hand, claims that Jesus, Rama, Krishna, and all the other avatars are all equal.
Can you finally see where the two religions contrast in this regard?
Here is one big difference between Hinduism and Christianity:
Hindus believe that you have unlimited chances to "get it together" and go into a state of transcendence. If you live a sinful life, your soul simply enters into some kind of animal until it dies. Eventually you work your way back to human status so you can give it another go. Sounds good enough.
Christians on the other hand believe that as humans we get ONE CHANCE. Not two, not three, not four. ONE SINGLE CHANCE. If you mess up in this lifetime, you are screwed. You don't come back as an animal or try again as a human. You live this life, you die, and you either go to heaven or hell in the eternal lake of fire. Hopefully your a good swimmer if the latter happens.
These are two vital differences of beliefs between both religions.
Hindus believe that you have unlimited chances to "get it together" and go into a state of transcendence. If you live a sinful life, your soul simply enters into some kind of animal until it dies. Eventually you work your way back to human status so you can give it another go. Sounds good enough.
Christians on the other hand believe that as humans we get ONE CHANCE. Not two, not three, not four. ONE SINGLE CHANCE. If you mess up in this lifetime, you are screwed. You don't come back as an animal or try again as a human. You live this life, you die, and you either go to heaven or hell in the eternal lake of fire. Hopefully your a good swimmer if the latter happens.
These are two vital differences of beliefs between both religions.
Jnana Yoga is a process of learning to discriminate between what is real and what is not, what is eternal and what is not. Through a steady advancement in realization of the distinction between Real and the Unreal, the Eternal and the Temporal, one develops into a Jnana Yogi.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita
LG, even Hinduism acknowledges that there is a difference between Real and Unreal.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita
LG, even Hinduism acknowledges that there is a difference between Real and Unreal.
*************So which one is right?
M*W: No god believing religion is right.
This argument has really become meaningless...its all based upon personal interpretations (which is why there's so many different sects in Christianity)....if you had a religion based upon only what Jesus says there would be no contradictions with reincarnation at all...but Christianity isn't based upon what Jesus says, its based upon what someone else says like a minister, the Pope, some early Christian father, etc...Here is one big difference between Hinduism and Christianity:
Hindus believe that you have unlimited chances to "get it together" and go into a state of transcendence. If you live a sinful life, your soul simply enters into some kind of animal until it dies. Eventually you work your way back to human status so you can give it another go. Sounds good enough.
Christians on the other hand believe that as humans we get ONE CHANCE. Not two, not three, not four. ONE SINGLE CHANCE. If you mess up in this lifetime, you are screwed. You don't come back as an animal or try again as a human. You live this life, you die, and you either go to heaven or hell in the eternal lake of fire. Hopefully your a good swimmer if the latter happens.
These are two vital differences of beliefs between both religions.
So there's no point in arguing anymore since you interpret all religions as being completely different and one must be right, and I interpret all religions as revealing the same eternal truths.....
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M*W: No god believing religion is right.
Why is that? Because you're an angry atheist who use to be God-believing, therefore you hate all theistic religions?
its all based upon personal interpretations (which is why there's so many different sects in Christianity)....if you had a religion based upon only what Jesus says there would be no contradictions with reincarnation at all
Every Christian sect actually is based only on what Jesus said, its just that they all interpret what he said differently.
Jesus spoke in vague terms which are left up to interpretation. Similarly, the U.S. Constitution was also written in vague terms which is why we have a supreme court to interpret the constitution on a case by case basis.
Also, where in the Bible did Jesus say that humans can die and their souls can enter animals and they become reincarnated until they finally go into a state of transcendence. Jesus said nothing even close to that.
Jesus never supported Hindu beliefs about the reality of life in any of his dialouges in the Bible. There's no yoga, there's no vegetarianism, there's no Rama or Krishna, there's no spirtual planets or whatever Hindus believe. I think if Jesus truly agreed with Hinduism, he would have at least acknowledged avatars like Rama and Krishna. But guess what, he didn't.
Every Christian sect actually is based only on what Jesus said, its just that they all interpret what he said differently.
Jesus spoke in vague terms which are left up to interpretation. Similarly, the U.S. Constitution was also written in vague terms which is why we have a supreme court to interpret the constitution on a case by case basis.
Christianity isn't based up on what Jesus says, its based upon the Bible (compiled by the Catholic Church)....a lot of authentic scriptures (which historians agree would be the authentic words of Christ, if he historically existed) are left out of the Bible intentionally by the Church.....
I'm talking about a religion based upon only what Jesus says....
Jesus never really says anything about the afterlife, no one really questioned him on that topic....nds1 said:Also, where in the Bible did Jesus say that humans can die and their souls can enter animals and they become reincarnated until they finally go into a state of transcendence. Jesus said nothing even close to that.
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5)
Again you probably haven't even read the Bhagavad Gita or anything, if you did you could easily see that Jesus and Krishna are revealing the same eternal truths. Jesus would never speak of Rama or Krishna because it wouldn't make sense for him to, he preached the truth in ways that the people of his time could understand.nds1 said:Jesus never supported Hindu beliefs about the reality of life in any of his dialouges in the Bible. There's no yoga, there's no vegetarianism, there's no Rama or Krishna, there's no spirtual planets or whatever Hindus believe. I think if Jesus truly agreed with Hinduism, he would have at least acknowledged avatars like Rama and Krishna. But guess what, he didn't.
Jesus taught bhakti-yoga and karma-yoga, and the same truths as Krishna did....Jesus agrees with almost every Hindu belief about reality...however he never denies or accepts reincarnation, nor does he even discuss what happens after death...
Krishna doesn't really talk about vegetarianism that much, but vegetarianism is present in Genesis:
"God said, ' Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food '. " (Gen 1:29)
Here God is saying that plants and fruits were designed by HIM as food for humans...
Jesus taught the law of karma:
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matt 7:2)
"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you - and even more." (Mark 4:24)
"If any one slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain." (Revelation 13:10)
"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again." (Luke 6:38)
Jesus taught bhakti-yoga (love God):
“Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? He answered, "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. That is the greatest commandment. It comes first." (Matthew 22.36-38)
And also karma-yoga (do pure good deeds):
"The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. Everything in the Law and the prophets hangs on these two commandments." (Matthew 22.39-40)
And also jnani-yoga (freedom through knowledge):
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32)
Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within you:
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21)
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (Corinthians 6:19)
Why is that? Because you're an angry atheist who use to be God-believing, therefore you hate all theistic religions?
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M*W: I wouldn't say that I am an "angry" atheist, because I am naturally fun-loving and like to laugh a lot. However, I am passionate in all things I care about including atheism. Because I try to keep anger out of my life, I don't feel hatred for theistic religion nor its adherents. I actually feel sorry for them, because they know not what they do, and they don't see the light. I am passionate about leading them toward the light.
The folks who canonized the books of the New Testament were not guilty of neglecting to include that which should be there (as the excluded books clearly defy those which were included), but the later Roman Catholics were guilty of adding Catholic extra Biblical texts to that which is considered sacred by them, so that is where false additions were made, and the books which were left out when the New Testament was canonized are obviously contradictory to the themes in the canonized New Testament.
The "light" that our end is supposedly a hole in the ground, what kind of light is that?
The "light" that our end is supposedly a hole in the ground, what kind of light is that?
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M*W: Although I agree with you about the hole in the ground, the "light" I was speaking of was "knowledge."