This is too much to bear anymore!!!

[Roman]

Yup, except Iraq. I am not sure I would want to live in any of those countries for various reasons myself. So what thinks you of Dubai then?

Never been there. Don't plan on going, either. If I wanted to go hang out in cities in the desert, I'd go to Cali.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Uhmm... have you been to Dubai?

One place in 1600 years of Arab Muslim Rule in the middle east, that might be ok for a non muslim to live.

But that is only because of the People who rule today, different rulers, different rules.

 

[dixonmassey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

You should consider changing screen name to Weasel_Roam. I asked you to reply on the hypothetical questions regardless of EVERYTHING ELSE. I repeat the question - what would YOU do if Cherokee nation is recreated and behaves EXACTLY in the same way as Israel, except that it's China not USA arms Cherokee nation with missiles and bulldozes and keeps its economy alive? Answer. Or you think Cherokees have less rights for the Tennessean land than Jews have rights for Palestine?

Reality is the answer, the Reality is, the Ottoman Empire, WWI, the Palestinian Mandate of the League of Nations, WWII, U.N. Resolution 181, and the Arabs going to war in contravention of U.N. Resolution 181, the Right of Return, Title, Deed, and Patent, not your hypothetical question.

Reality is that foreign nation(s) recreated a foreign nation (by culture, language, customs, religion, etc.) among people of quite different creed WITHOUT asking the people about to be subjugated/displaced what they think about it. You dare to appeal to the UN resolution knowing well that USA and Israel does NOT GIVE A DIME about countless number of UN resolutions demanding reversal of the land grab. One could understand making Germany to give up Bavaria, for example, for Jewish settlers, even that is morally tricky considering Jewish glorification o genocide in their Holy Books and 25 millions of the Soviet dead. Forcing Arabs to accommodate Jewish state just because Britain took control of Middle East as a result of WWI .... I give you a hint, Brits don't control ME anymore.

I give you another HINT prior to surge of Jewish nationalism and drive for statehood, Muslims, Jews and Christians coexisted for almost 2000 years in ME relatively peacefully (Crusades and few other bloodlettings aside). Only the age of nationalism changed that.

Lastly, the richest people on Earth are of Jewish origin. Arguably, Jews control American banking, i.e. dollar emission, i.e. world economy. Yet, all that wealth cannot come up with 100k/person or so to resettle Palestinian ghettos and refugee camps. Sure, for some resettling is not acceptable, but most would get hell out if they could. Yet, shooting missiles into crowded areas is more cost effective. $10 billions/year US gives away = 10,000 people out of ghettoes, if money are not spent on bulldozers and gunships.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Posted by Buffalo Roam

“ Why because it exposes the actual intent of the Palestinians Muslims."

Posted by Straw Dog

Allah gave them the land in perpetuity by conquest? so there for the only dialogue is when Muslims will get it back. ”

Sadly that statement is the viewpoint of the Zionists as well. The promised land. Only difference being insert "G-d". You are indeed a bigot.

Yes? really, again with the Zionist as if it is a dirty word, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are a forgery, a hoax, a plagiarism for a play in the 17 century, and the Arabs have used this as justification of bigotry against the Jews ever since, and before that they just used the fact that the Jews were Jews.

But the statement as made by Muslims is so much more, the thing is that it isn't just in Israel that they believe this to be, it is across any land that Muslims have set up a Mosque, and established their presence.

Israel is Israel.

For lack of a better out line I am going to use that graphic:

If Israel is left alone in these Borders as Israel it will not move across those boarders, it will be Israel.

The Palestinians are not satisfied even with regaining the land of the Arab State, they want the destruction of the Israel State to.

That Goal is clearly stated in Hamas's Charter, as expressed by:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

So your comparison is spurious at best.

 

[pjdude1219]

Yes? really, again with the Zionist as if it is a dirty word, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are a forgery, a hoax, a plagiarism for a play in the 17 century, and the Arabs have used this as justification of bigotry against the Jews ever since, and before that they just used the fact that the Jews were Jews.

are you stupid or do you just enjoy misrepresenting people belief and ideas to suit your own ends? zionism is a real and arguable dangerous, expansionistic, and racist idealogy. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a hit job against all jews. first off there is no evidence to prove your bigoted asseration that arabs hate jews because of jews. There is however plenty of evidence to prove that they dislike the jews because of zionism.

 

[skywalker]

.

Naw, he is not stoopid or anything...just a normal hater from deep down south... without him... Sciforum may become such boring place...

 

[Buffalo Roam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

You should consider changing screen name to Weasel_Roam. I asked you to reply on the hypothetical questions regardless of EVERYTHING ELSE. I repeat the question - what would YOU do if Cherokee nation is recreated and behaves EXACTLY in the same way as Israel, except that it's China not USA arms Cherokee nation with missiles and bulldozes and keeps its economy alive? Answer. Or you think Cherokees have less rights for the Tennessean land than Jews have rights for Palestine?

Reality is that foreign nation(s) recreated a foreign nation (by culture, language, customs, religion, etc.) among people of quite different creed WITHOUT asking the people about to be subjugated/displaced what they think about it. You dare to appeal to the UN resolution knowing well that USA and Israel does NOT GIVE A DIME about countless number of UN resolutions demanding reversal of the land grab. One could understand making Germany to give up Bavaria, for example, for Jewish settlers, even that is morally tricky considering Jewish glorification o genocide in their Holy Books and 25 millions of the Soviet dead. Forcing Arabs to accommodate Jewish state just because Britain took control of Middle East as a result of WWI .... I give you a hint, Brits don't control ME anymore.

I give you another HINT prior to surge of Jewish nationalism and drive for statehood, Muslims, Jews and Christians coexisted for almost 2000 years in ME relatively peacefully (Crusades and few other bloodlettings aside). Only the age of nationalism changed that.

Lastly, the richest people on Earth are of Jewish origin. Arguably, Jews control American banking, i.e. dollar emission, i.e. world economy. Yet, all that wealth cannot come up with 100k/person or so to resettle Palestinian ghettos and refugee camps. Sure, for some resettling is not acceptable, but most would get hell out if they could. Yet, shooting missiles into crowded areas is more cost effective. $10 billions/year US gives away = 10,000 people out of ghettoes, if money are not spent on bulldozers and gunships.

You know something, I don't have to answer to a wet dream situation that you make up, your hypothetical is loaded to elicit a specific response, to support your bias with facts not in reality.

Loading a hypothetical question like you did doesn't deserve a response.

I give you another HINT prior to surge of Jewish nationalism and drive for statehood, Muslims, Jews and Christians coexisted for almost 2000 years in ME relatively peacefully (Crusades and few other bloodlettings aside). Only the age of nationalism changed that.

Arab Nationalism, backed by Religious Jihad, I think you need to study the time period a wee bit more laddie, like for the last 1700 years.

Lastly, the richest people on Earth are of Jewish origin. Arguably, Jews control American banking, i.e. dollar emission, i.e. world economy. Yet, all that wealth cannot come up with 100k/person or so to resettle Palestinian ghettos and refugee camps. Sure, for some resettling is not acceptable, but most would get hell out if they could. Yet, shooting missiles into crowded areas is more cost effective. $10 billions/year US gives away = 10,000 people out of ghettoes, if money are not spent on bulldozers and gunships.

And now we come to the crux of the situation, jealousy, pure unadulterated bigoted jealousy, the typical KKK red neck, I have heard it all before from the Aryan Nation to the KKK, to the Nazis, to the Muslims----it's the Jews, always the Jews who are at fault.

And people on the forum want to call me a raciest redneck....:roflmao:

Isn't that the Excuse that Hitler used? The Jewish conspiracy, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, yes DM.

Now what happened to all that money given in aid to the Palestinians for the last 60 years? Huh?

Was it used for infrastructure? schools? hospitals? water projects? I think if you would care to look any of those thing that were built were built by the Israelis, and Foreign concerns with moneys that the Palestinians couldn't get their hands on.

How many Billions did Yasar Arafat skim into his own pockets, and those of his cronies, before he spent the rest on weapons and personnel armies.

How many Billions has Hamas skimmed into their own pockets, before spending the rest for buying and smuggling weapons, instead of building infrastructure and industry.

Gaza isn't even as densely populated as Hong Kong, and Hong Kong is a economic wonder, one of the greatest centers of trade and commerce in the world, but Hong Kong didn't spend it's money on weapons, it spent it's money on infrastructure and Industry.

Just a few second skimming of Google shows 670+ million dollars in aid to Gaza alone, from around the world even Israel, in the last couple of months.

It isn't a lack of aid to Gaza, it is a lack of Hamas using that aid properly/

Now,

For the last 60 years who didn't allow the Palestinians to resettle?, become citizens into the land they moved and were born in? which countries by law will not allow for Palestinians to gain Citizenship, and have done so for 60 years?

Can you guess the answer? well since you seem to have a density problem DM, let me Tell you the Arabs.

Gaza needs to be cleaned out, then it can be rebuilt, Hama has to go, so the rebuilding can be successful, and so they can't start another round of fighting and any progress in rebuilding is destroyed.

 

[dixonmassey]

You know something, I don't have to answer to a wet dream situation that you make up, your hypothetical is loaded to elicit a specific response, to support your bias with facts not in reality.

Sure, you don't have too. You are so biased, you can't answer hypothetical questions because it "desecrates" divine nature of your chosen object of worship. As a true believer you cannot tolerate ambiguity.

Arab Nationalism, backed by Religious Jihad, I think you need to study the time period a wee bit more laddie, like for the last 1700 years.

Nationalism is EUROPEAN trend born in Germany at the end of 18th century. There was no unified Germany back then. There were dozens of German principalities with quite different customs, language, governance. Nationalism became ideological base for their unification. Jews, being European in their culture, embraced nationalism way before Arabs. It was easy though, Jewish identity is built around modified tribalism. You show severe lack of knowledge pointing at "1700 year old" Arab nationalism.


[quote[ And now we come to the crux of the situation, jealousy, pure unadulterated bigoted jealousy, the typical KKK red neck, I have heard it all before from the Aryan Nation to the KKK, to the Nazis, to the Muslims----it's the Jews, always the Jews who are at fault. [/quote]

You are a weasel, natural born weasel. What does your beaten zillion times over standard verbal diarrhea prove/explain? What the hell, what it's about? I don't discuss responsibility of Jews for all world's problems. However, they are 100% responsible for Palestinian ghettos. Having control over most of world's economy, Jewish magnates and their bitch USA could squeeze a few hundreds of billions to resettle willing Palestinians and grab, finally, that fucking strip of land.

And people on the forum want to call me a raciest redneck....:roflmao:

It seems you are enamored with Jews and Israel up to the point of losing most of the marbles of critical thinking, which points at these possibilities

You are:

1) Orthodox Jews
2) Zionist Jew
3) Christian Fundamentalist
4) Bleeding heart Liberal (you using quite liberal rhetoric on this matter) with a solid pinch of a rightwing nut.
5) All of the above.

You are not a typical brainwashed American Joe though. You are fixated on the subject.

Isn't that the Excuse that Hitler used? The Jewish conspiracy, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, yes DM.

You have not read freaking Old Testament tonight, have you? Strange. Hitler did NOTHING that ancient Jews did not sanctify and glorify in their Holy Books. Why such an obvious fact is hard to admit? Before throwing stone in Hitler, a boulder should be thrown in those Holy books. Or genocide is only bad if Germans do it? Stupid Adolf should have ordered inspired creation of German sacred scribes before going to war. Can you be sure that Jehovah did not reveal itself to Adolf, can you?

Besides, Jews are not the only people Adolf decided to exterminate. Jews are not the one who suffered the greatest casualties. Yet, ask an average Joe about WWII and all he knows is holocaust. It took some serious brainwashing to reach that point.

How many Billions did Yasar Arafat skim into his own pockets, and those of his cronies, before he spent the rest on weapons and personnel armies.

How many Billions has Hamas skimmed into their own pockets, before spending the rest for buying and smuggling weapons, instead of building infrastructure and industry.

You are so right, corruption is just Arabs problem. That's what human pecking pyramid about - those on top fleecing those at the bottom, USA, Russia, Israel or Palestine. Infrastructure you say? It's quite pointless. Palestinian state is stillborn, economically, politically, anyhow. There is no point for infrastructure, there is a point for fight.

Gaza isn't even as densely populated as Hong Kong, and Hong Kong is a economic wonder, one of the greatest centers of trade and commerce in the world, but Hong Kong didn't spend it's money on weapons, it spent it's money on infrastructure and Industry.

There is no China and SE Asia attached to Palestine. No drugs too.

For the last 60 years who didn't allow the Palestinians to resettle?, become citizens into the land they moved and were born in? which countries by law will not allow for Palestinians to gain Citizenship, and have done so for 60 years?

You can't be serious. You expect surrounding states to do everything possible to make life of the foreign state body, inserted in their midst, easier? That's not what is life about. They use Palestinians as a weapon, why not? However, there is Germany, there is generous beacon of freedom USA, which is built around import of cheap labor, 1 million of souls/year (legally) to be exact. If USA is in such love with Israel why not to admit Palestinians? Why expect Israel's enemies to do so?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

-----

DM
I don't answer loaded hypothetical questions because they are not valid to the discussion.

Your questions had a agenda, and were loaded to meet that agenda.

And were hypothetical and therefore not valid to reality.

Now give me something based in the reality of the situation and I will give you a answer, but your hypothetical are not based in any reality, in the present, or history.

It seems you are enamored with Jews and Israel up to the point of losing most of the marbles of critical thinking, which points at these possibilities

You are:

1) Orthodox Jews
2) Zionist Jew
3) Christian Fundamentalist
4) Bleeding heart Liberal (you using quite liberal rhetoric on this matter) with a solid pinch of a rightwing nut.
5) All of the above.

You are not a typical brainwashed American Joe though. You are fixated on the subject.

And your just a anti semite racest bigot, I wouldn't even degrade a Red Neck by accusing you of being one.

So now do we understand each other?

 

[Tnerb]

I'm just trolling but I thought this was awesome:

Okay, look, here's the thing: I'm really sick and tired of that absolute bullshit response. Okay? Really, after a while, it gets to sound like a two-bit excuse some hack moron pundit makes. Can't come up with an answer? Then he must be blaming America. Too deep or broad to grasp? Then he must be making an anti-American statement.

It gets predictable. It's like you're making a point of announcing that you don't want to have a discussion.

I couldn't agree anymore........ You know people do this all the time....... I don't get it........ I think they like to do it...... I am starting to think all of the smart people on this board are either the physicists, the philosophers, or something of an inbetween..... You don't get much non BS response too often, usually it is just some **** some one decided was rich in debate.

 

[dixonmassey]

DM
I don't answer loaded hypothetical questions because they are not valid to the discussion.

You don't answer the question because you are a close minded Israel worshiper. A true believer who can't step in other people's shoes.

I'll help you to answer the question, because, obviously, you don't want to say this phrase which is so dear to your heart:

what is allowed to Jewish Jupiter is not permitted to Cherokee, Arab, etc. ox

Cherokee nation being in hypothetical Israel shoes is sacrilege, it can never be.

Who are you? Since you are fighting against "liberal" menace, it's unlikely you are a Jew. Jews lean heavily towards liberal side. You must be a flaming fundy. Arguing with fundies is just the same as arguing with a tape recorder.

Your questions had a agenda, and were loaded to meet that agenda.

My question has agenda of equality of Jew and Cherokees. You have no answers, because your agenda doesn't not allow such equality. You cannot weasel out, so you just don't answer.

Now give me something based in the reality of the situation

What in the holy fuck is this argument about? Israel was not based in reality prior 1948. Prior to reality, as I said before, there is IDEA, ideology, concept and NOT vice versa. You are a weasel, but really lousy one.

And your just a anti semite racest bigot, I wouldn't even degarde a Red Neck by accusing you of being one.

Yup, anti liberal is using liberal trick of labeling anyone "antisemite" for questioning divinity of each and every action of a Jew. Jew can do NO wrong, everybody, except "anti-semites", know.

So now do we understand each other?

I understand you, you don't understand yourself. A true fundy is not quite sincere even with himself not to damage certainty of faith.

"You cannot convince a believer of anything, for their belief is not based on evidence, but rather on an inherent need to believe." -- Carl Sagan in Contact

 

[ElectricFetus]

All I'm saying is I wouldn't want to live in an Arabic country.

Then Iran should be alright, they are Persian.

I disagree, there is no such thing as race. That's one of the stumbling blocks.

There no such thing as freestyle jazz either, that just a title we made up for a social situation and a particular set of sound patterns, same case for race. Now if you can't accept abstract concepts like race exist, be it mentally, then you got some serious problems: you can start denying the existence any category: colors, feelings, etc.

 

[GeoffP]

I really hope that Geoff is not trying to convince us all that it is okay to kill all the Palestinian children.

Haw! This idiot again.

....I hope you are not trying to convince us all that it is okay to kill all the Israeli children!

See what I did there? Save the propaganda. You're not any good at it.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

You don't answer the question because you are a close minded Israel worshiper. A true believer who can't step in other people's shoes.

I'll help you to answer the question, because, obviously, you don't want to say this phrase which is so dear to your heart:

what is allowed to Jewish Jupiter is not permitted to Cherokee, Arab, etc. ox

Cherokee nation being in hypothetical Israel shoes is sacrilege, it can never be.

Who are you? Since you are fighting against "liberal" menace, it's unlikely you are a Jew. Jews lean heavily towards liberal side. You must be a flaming fundy. Arguing with fundies is just the same as arguing with a tape recorder.

My question has agenda of equality of Jew and Cherokees. You have no answers, because your agenda doesn't not allow such equality. You cannot weasel out, so you just don't answer.

What in the holy fuck is this argument about? Israel was not based in reality prior 1948. Prior to reality, as I said before, there is IDEA, ideology, concept and NOT vice versa. You are a weasel, but really lousy one.

Yup, anti liberal is using liberal trick of labeling anyone "antisemite" for questioning divinity of each and every action of a Jew. Jew can do NO wrong, everybody, except "anti-semites", know.

I understand you, you don't understand yourself. A true fundy is not quite sincere even with himself not to damage certainty of faith.

"You cannot convince a believer of anything, for their belief is not based on evidence, but rather on an inherent need to believe." -- Carl Sagan in Contact

I'll help you to answer the question, because,

Typically liberal, you will help me answer, yes, you will put words that suite you, into my mouth and speak for me.

I don't have to answer your loaded question, and lets make this completely clear they are---Loaded Hypothetical Questions---to prove your preconceived point-----In plain word, you are controlling both side of the Debate so you get the answer you want.

Yes, read this again, and really look at what you have said:

"You cannot convince a believer of anything, for their belief is not based on evidence, but rather on an inherent need to believe." -- Carl Sagan in Contact

Hypothetical's are not based in evidence, and they are set up to support your beliefs sans evidence in the reality.

So who is the Believer, with the INHERENT NEED TO BELIEVE?

Look in the Mirror DM.

Palestine did not exist before 1948 either, and if you care to check, U.N. 181 established a Israeli State and a Arab State west of the Jordan River in 1947 to take effect in 1948.

The Arabs didn't even forward the Idea of a Palestinian State until they got their ass's beat in the 1967 War, that is the first time we hear anything about a Palestinian State.

That is History, that is Fact, now answer to that, not some Hypothetical that you load to put words into my mouth.

Yup, anti liberal is using liberal trick of labeling anyone "antisemite" for questioning divinity of each and every action of a Jew. Jew can do NO wrong, everybody, except "anti-semites", know.

:shrug?????????

Yup, anti liberal is using liberal trick of labeling anyone

So you admit that as a liberal, labeling is a liberal trick.

Yes, a Liberal Trick, and your mad because, I use your own tactics against you.

Well I am not labeling, if the shoe fits wear it.

My question has agenda of equality of Jew and Cherokees. You have no answers, because your agenda doesn't not allow such equality. You cannot weasel out, so you just don't answer.

Yes, and it has nothing to do with reality Today.

I understand you, you don't understand yourself. A true fundy is not quite sincere even with himself not to damage certainty of faith.

And now you have become totally ridiculous, not only do you insist on speaking for me, you now decide what I understand, and feel.

D.M. :bugeye: :roflmao: you are a real piece of work.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Naw, he is not stoopid or anything...just a normal hater from deep down south... without him... Sciforum may become such boring place...

Shows just how much reading comprehension you have, and how much you know about me.

Now just why do you think I am from the South.

 

[StrawDog]

But that is only because of the People who rule today, different rulers, different rules.

Of course. As in every continent, including the Americas, Europe and Africa. Governments EVOLVE.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Of course. As in every continent, including the Americas, Europe and Africa. Governments EVOLVE.

So what would Dubi look like with a Wahabi as top dog?

 

[StrawDog]

Yes? really, again with the Zionist as if it is a dirty word, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are a forgery, a hoax, a plagiarism for a play in the 17 century, and the Arabs have used this as justification of bigotry against the Jews ever since, and before that they just used the fact that the Jews were Jews.

Of course there is a vast difference between the Protocols and "Zionism" as understood and defined in the modern world. I never mentioned the Protocols. The Arabs and Jews were living contentedly side by side in Palestine before Zionism reared its ugly head.

But the statement as made by Muslims is so much more, the thing is that it isn't just in Israel that they believe this to be, it is across any land that Muslims have set up a Mosque, and established their presence.

East European Jews, want to displace a population that has lived in Palestine for generations to satisfy a fantasy laid out in a book of legends. There is obviously a conflict of interest here. Thus "conflict".

As an aside, what is the difference between this - "is across any land that Muslims have set up a Mosque, and established their presence", and US foreign policy? What in heavens name is the US doing in Iraq, establishing its presence, which of course is nowhere near its borders or culture? Hypocrisy again.

If Israel is left alone in these Borders as Israel it will not move across those boarders, it will be Israel. The Palestinians are not satisfied even with regaining the land of the Arab State, they want the destruction of the Israel State to.

So ... hypothetically, due to historical reasons, the Russians invade (retake) Alaska and displace the American population. Will you be satisfied with ceding half to the Russians to establish peace. That does not concur with human nature I am afraid. The Palestinian uprising was, and is a natural reaction to a great injustice. Simple.

So your comparison is spurious at best.

Hardly.

 

[GeoffP]

Of course there is a vast difference between the Protocols and "Zionism" as understood and defined in the modern world. I never mentioned the Protocols. The Arabs and Jews were living contentedly side by side in Palestine before Zionism reared its ugly head.

Er, hardly. And your response does raise the question: if US policy of dominance in the ME is so heinous, what is one to make of Arabization?

 

[sly1]

Read most of all the replies to this and good arguements on both sides.

I conclude that with any luck this conflict will spread and leave charred earth for no future generation to war over.

that would be justice as humans are an inately destructive organism who hide their destructive tendancies behing public confessions of love and peace meanwhile their actions speak otherwise.

As a race we have always been and will always be at war over some man made rationalization condoning the destruction of whatever "new evil" spawns from their immaginations.

Evil does not know its evil, it thinks its doing good.