Theists: Answer me this

SnakeLord said:
it can do anything, knows everything, completely immaterial and beyond our understanding.
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and actually, the paradox of knowing everything and being able to do anything (except be wrong, learn, be surprised, and etc...) has further hemmed this God thing in till where now some theists just know this, God is unknowable .. .. but but but .. I just know HE exists and Roves me... some body pleeease love me... :p

The main similarity between God and the toothfairy is neither is likely to exist and there has never been any good evidence for either of them. Why, it's as if someone just made them up.
 
SnakeLord said:
Perhaps not, (do note I am just a fallible human).
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And this is what it is based on: possibilities. Our universe had a beginning, we know this, and we also know the only two possibilities, logically, are that it was "created" or it came to be on its own accord (natural).

This is why the question of a Creator is still valid.



Such assertion only leads to problems. If one postulates that an entity created it, the problem arises in what created that entity. If one then asserts that such entity is eternal, the problem arises with how it could ever get to 'now' to create a universe. If one asserts that this being resides 'outside of time', the problem concerning something being atemporal arises - and this list just goes on and on.
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This suggests that "existence" is eternal. As I said, if indeed existence is eternal, I could argue that of every universe in existence, some were created and some came to be on their own accord. For instance, if we assume that the multi-verse theory is correct, and there are an infinite amount of universes, surely one of them was created? The question as to our universe, however, is unsolvable.

Now, one could claim that all these same problems are true of the natural universe but then why add something to it that doesn't even begin to solve them? All that's happened is you have some questions and you've lumped something at the front of them that doesn't answer any of those questions. It is truly pointless - indeed it only makes the issue vastly more confusing. Occam would come into play here and for good reason.

Regards,
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Or, we could say, "why bring nature into the equation?"

Before we continue, allow me to briefly define and explain what I am talking about

Nature is what I consider " a force of change that is not intentionally caused by a thinking or self-aware entity". If there is a mountain, and an avalanche occurs because of an earthquake or something, that is naturally occuring.

If an avalanche occurs because I detonated explosives, this is happening because of my actions.

This is what I mean. By "Creator" I mean Creator. I do not mean a magical being or omniscient being or anything of the sort. I am not, because I cannot, specify the nature of this Creator. All I can assert based on logics, is that it is possible that our universe came to be intentionally, based on the actions of some force of thought or consciousness.

I hope you understand what I am saying.
 
Norsefire said:
And this is what it is based on: possibilities. Our universe had a beginning, we know this, and we also know the only two possibilities, logically, are that it was "created" or it came to be on its own accord (natural).
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we only know that the universe as it is now began at some point. There could have been a universe at a different energy level that somehow dropped to this more stable configuration at one point and this spread across that universe as all pre-matter reality converted

this could of course happen without any need of a god.


also, even if there were a couple of Goddesses in the past, they could have died in the experiment.
 
Michael said:
we only know that the universe as it is now began at some point. There could have been a universe at a different energy level that somehow dropped to this more stable configuration at one point and this spread across that universe as all pre-matter reality converted
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That would fall under a natural occurance.

Michael said:
Equally as valid is questioning the existence of Xenu.
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If you really cannot see the difference, I have no interest in further discussing this.
 
do whut?

Ok. Let me try to return to the original topic which is, as I understand it, what makes God more real than the tooth fairy? Or perhaps vice-versa, depending on your preference.:bugeye:

As a christian I would suggest that perhaps there was once a tooth fairy, but it died in the great flood.:p Since then it has been relegated to a nice story to tell the kids to ease their terror that their teeth(!) are physically falling out(!!) but when one falls out you'll get a prize(maybe teeth falling out isn't such a bad deal...)

Honestly, I submit that they require equal levels of faith on a human level, the main difference being that one is All powerful yet the other is a tooth collector with cat-burgling as a side job.

I guess I'm trying to say, do you have a more precise question? I'll try to answer that one. Or we can all go over to philosophy to discuss proof of our own existence and the difficulty which lies in verifying our existence without making some assumptions to reach a conclusion?:eek:
 
Norsefire said:
If you really cannot see the difference, I have no interest in further discussing this.
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I didn't say there was a difference, just that it's equally as valid to question the belief in Xenu.


Anyway, there could have been two goddesses that created the Universe and then died. How would we know? So, it may be true. BUT, there is no good evidence, and actually, it seems that we may eventually have good mathematical models that completely exclude the creator. What then? What happens when we have a mathematical model that completely explains reality without any need of a creator. Then what?
 
Michael

I would suggest that such a mathematical model will not be found, because if it tries to show pre-big bang it will fall apart. I'm talking about God as a First Cause here.
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
Michael

I would suggest that such a mathematical model will not be found, because if it tries to show pre-big bang it will fall apart. I'm talking about God as a First Cause here.
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Suppose it does not fall apart. The CERN particle accelerator is capable of smashing subatomic particles together, reproducing the energies that existed a fraction of a second after the big bang. What comes out should solve some fundamental mysteries about how the universe is put together. And in this we may learn just how the Universe was created.

So, suppose some clever mathematician figures it out. We learn how the Universe was created and it didn't involve a God. Just cold dead physics.

Then what?

That aside, within your own hypothesis: "God did it"; Am I correct in saying that it is possible that this God does not now exist?

Your hypothesis suggests that God was here, but, is not here now. Right?

Michael
 
Michael said:
I didn't say there was a difference, just that it's equally as valid to question the belief in Xenu.


Anyway, there could have been two goddesses that created the Universe and then died. How would we know? So, it may be true. BUT, there is no good evidence, and actually, it seems that we may eventually have good mathematical models that completely exclude the creator. What then? What happens when we have a mathematical model that completely explains reality without any need of a creator. Then what?
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Who is Xenu? Secondly, you're getting way into details. The concept simply that our universe was created is where we need to stop, because anything further is simply not only not provable but also you cannot use logic, whereas you can to suppose a creator.
 
Strangely enough, I kind of agree with you. Kind of.

I believe God has taken a basically hands-off approach to the universe for much of its history. He basically wrote the program, set it to run, then sat back and observed. Think about this: God got involved (at the earliest observer's record that I am aware) When Abraham set off for "the promised land". Cosmologically, that's really recent. I'm not precluding the creation story as preposterous, I'm merely saying that if we discount it as an explanation of origin to a pre-technological person. Then, he was actively involved in the day to day for approximately(very approximately) 2000 or so years- until the blinding of Paul. It's been about 2000 years since then, perhaps he'll begin to intervene again soon. Perhaps not.

Let's not forget that he was most visible to a relative minority among peoples. The Jews were overrun by several other civilizations, all bigger and more advanced.

Now. Cold dead physics. It would be my turn to start yelling that they must come up with a way to 'prove' that God does not exist, and by not exist I mean on an Omnidimensional level. If God is going to be Omni everything else, we'd have to disprove other dimensions beyond our little 4. Show me some transdimensional physics that can be experimented, not just postulated, and I would begin to concede the point.

Let me turn your question back to you. What if one morning you wake up and in your Kitchen, there sits the risen Jesus Christ? No math. No physics. He's even brewing some tea. What then?
 
Norsefire said:
Although I myself have my own reason as to why I do not think God is comparable to something like the tooth fairy, I want actual theists to try to explain

Explain to me why God and the tooth fairy are not the same thing. After all, they both have zero evidence:shrug:
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I rather give my money to the tooth fairy then to " God "

I remember when I was a little girl and my dad used to take us to church mainly just on the Special Holidays, Easter, Christmas Eve, Palm Sunday etc.

I used to be so bored there. Even at a young age I did notice something. It seemed like they were passing around the basket for money an awful lot. I actually asked my dad about this. I can't really remember what he said but my mom who stayed home because she was not Catholic used to say because it is just a Big Money Making scam. I wasn't sure I believed her at that time, but as I got older I came to that conclusion on my own. I also started to hear things about all the sex scandals that were going on with the priests. After all that I became disgusted by the whole thing and never went to Church as a teen or adult. I do not take my kids to church either, and never will.
 
Shorty the actions of a few Priests do not suggest the existence or nonexistence of God.
 
Norsefire said:
I know. But if you are a non believer only because of the actions of a few Priests, I don't think that is a good enough reason.
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No that's not why. I have a hard time believing in something with no REAL proof. I also think that if there was a GOD the world would not be in the shape it is today.
 
shorty_37 said:
No that's not why. I have a hard time believing in something with no REAL proof.
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Very understandable. I suppose it's one of those movie moments when you just have to have faith, eh?

I also think that if there was a GOD the world would not be in the shape it is today.
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What is the logic behind this?
 
shorty,

let me toss one to ya. Can you prove that you exist? That you are in fact a thinking intelligent being and not a simulation? I know I can't. Since there is no REAL proof that either of us exists, does that mean that we don't? If it doesn't, then can the same be applied to God? Santa Claus? Vishnu?

If it does... props to the programmers, my simulation is pretty realistic:)
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
they must come up with a way to 'prove' that God does not exist,
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I don't think it's possible to prove a negative.

I'm not saying CERN will prove God does not exist. Really, if you think about it, I'm not saying anything about God. I'm say that perhaps Physicists may be able to, one day, mathematically explain reality and the creation of our universe. Therefor, much like evolution, there will be no need to invoke a God for the mystery of creation - we'll simply know the answer.

Mr. Hamtastic said:
Let me turn your question back to you. What if one morning you wake up and in your Kitchen, there sits the risen Jesus Christ? No math. No physics. He's even brewing some tea. What then?
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I must assume that I know for a fact this is Jesus. So, I'm convinced I am not hallucinating or dreaming (or accepted that if I am then this is now my reality). I would sit down and have a conversation. My first question would be: SO, Jesus, what do you think about Islam and Scientology - both very good family oriented religions and both deney you are/were the Messiah. So, what was Rome like back in the day? Can I go back in time with you and hand out there for a while? etc... :)
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
shorty,

let me toss one to ya. Can you prove that you exist? That you are in fact a thinking intelligent being and not a simulation? I know I can't. Since there is no REAL proof that either of us exists, does that mean that we don't? If it doesn't, then can the same be applied to God? Santa Claus? Vishnu?

If it does... props to the programmers, my simulation is pretty realistic:)
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most of your world probably is illusion. And I don't mean that as an asthetic answer, but it seems that psychologists are showing most of what we [perceive is just tunnel vision and the rest the brain is filling in with what it expects to be there.
 
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