The War on Christmas

[Vega]

And a Happy Chanukkah to you!

Thanks but I'm not Jewish!!!

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

Most are sick and tired of Christians ramming their beliefs down everyones throat.

When is the last time a Christian rammed his/her beliefs down your throat?

Yesterday.

You say someone tried to ram Christianity down your throat yesterday. Did they follow you and harrass you and say you had better become Christian or they would beat you up? Did they threaten to call the authorities on you if you didn't convert to Christianity? Or did they simply mention the fact that they were Christian, something that seems enough to force some non-Christians into throes of apoplexy.

They were trying to indoctrinate me into their cult, as they always do.

You first said they were ramming their religion down your throat. Now you say they were trying to indoctrinate you. Just how were they trying to indoctrinate you? Were they tieing you to a chair and playing Silent Night over and over? Were they threatening you with torture if you didn't become a Christian? Were they inviting you to become a Christian? Were they simply telling you they were Christian? You have used some pretty strong words with no back up data.

The tactics used by evangelists to recruit are not as well known to me as they might be to you, and differ from cult member to cult member. It is irrelevant, unless there is a point to your rant.

The above is a series of back and forth postings between Q and me. At first Q accuses Christians of ramming their beliefs down every one's throat.

I ask him when this last happened and he is very specific when he answers, Yesterday.

I then ask just how they were attempting to ram their religious beliefs down his throat. I ask him to tell just how they were doing this.

His answer, They were trying to indoctrinate me as they always do.

I again ask him to tell exactly how they were trying to indoctrinate him.

In his answer he indicates that he doesn't really know how they were trying to indoctrinate him because he isn't all that familiar with their methods. (If they were constantly trying to ram their religious beliefs down his throat he would be expected to at least be familiar with the methods they use.)

Q then accuses me of ranting. I guess he considers asking him questions he seems unable to answer ranting.

From the series of posts between Q and myself I can only come to the conclusion that he has NOT been harrassed by Christians trying to ram their religion down his throat and is rather simply someone who does not like Christians, ie. an anti-Christian bigot.

His posts read like someone who goes to the police station and says someone beat mr up. When asked to describe the person he responds they all look alike. When then asked to describe the beating he says, well, I can't really describe it because I am not all that familiar with how people beat up other people.

I suggest that in the future Q gets his ducks in a row before making accusations he seems unable to substantiate.

 

[Fabio4all]

why can't atheists leave us alone? We Christians don't go along and tell them to believe what we believe, so they shouldn't. We don't tell them to share our faith, so they shouldn't tell us to leave ours. I don't care if you don't believe in Jesus. We're okay with the fact that you don't believe what we do. I like my faith, and you should be fine with that.

 

[(Q)]

I suggest that in the future Q gets his ducks in a row before making accusations he seems unable to substantiate.

You are free to opine such nonsense as you are clearly harboring the delusion that Christian evangelists do not actively recruit.

Are you deluded, Till, or are you just lying?

 

[(Q)]

why can't atheists leave us alone? We Christians don't go along and tell them to believe what we believe, so they shouldn't. We don't tell them to share our faith, so they shouldn't tell us to leave ours. I don't care if you don't believe in Jesus. We're okay with the fact that you don't believe what we do. I like my faith, and you should be fine with that.

Then, we demand your institutions start paying taxes.

We demand your institutions stop abusing children.

We demand your institutions stop actively recruiting.

We demand your institutions stop teaching your cult in schools.

We demand you keep your cults beliefs out of government.

 

[SnakeLord]

Then, we demand your institutions start paying taxes.

We demand your institutions stop abusing children.

We demand your institutions stop actively recruiting.

We demand your institutions stop teaching your cult in schools.

We demand you keep your cults beliefs out of government.

Yeah, sorry Fabio but I'm inclined to agree with this. In honesty not many of us give a shit what you actually believe, you can believe in floating invisible mermaids for all anyone gives a damn, it's when those beliefs are forced upon everyone else - especially the young that it becomes a problem.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

You are free to opine such nonsense as you are clearly harboring the delusion that Christian evangelists do not actively recruit.

Are you deluded, Till, or are you just lying?

It seems one of us is either deluded or lying, Q. I know it's not me and since there are only two of us I guess it must be you.

You claimed Christians tried to cram their religion down your throat yesterday. When I asked you what form this supposed cramming took you were unable to answer and proceeded to backtrack and create straw men.

I don't really care that you don't like Christians but I do care when you lie about your interactions with them.

You must be extremely insecure to have to resort to making up stories about Christians trying to ram their religion down your throat. You must be extremely delusional to be able to say with certainty what day this so-called ramming occured on since you admit you don't even knw how they do it.

If you want to preach your anti-Christian hatred at least try to get your facts straight.

 

[superluminal]

Is Jesus Christ THAT repulsive to them?

Yes.

 

[superluminal]

It seems one of us is either deluded or lying, Q. I know it's not me and since there are only two of us I guess it must be you.

You claimed Christians tried to cram their religion down your throat yesterday. When I asked you what form this supposed cramming took you were unable to answer and proceeded to backtrack and create straw men.

I don't really care that you don't like Christians but I do care when you lie about your interactions with them.

You must be extremely insecure to have to resort to making up stories about Christians trying to ram their religion down your throat. You must be extremely delusional to be able to say with certainty what day this so-called ramming occured on since you admit you don't even knw how they do it.

If you want to preach your anti-Christian hatred at least try to get your facts straight.

A simple example, really, but my granddaughters are in girl scouts (as were my daughters, many years ago). Where do almost all girlscouts meet? In a church common room. What's all over the walls of the church common room? Some of the most blatant, repulsive material you could ever hope to find. Posters (directed at kids) saying outright that if you don't follow what jesus says, you're going to eternal damnation. That's a fact.

In a public school, one of my granddaughters teachers was a priest. He gives them assignments based on jesus. They seem innocent enough till you realize that the message the answers imply is that jesus really is the "One True God[sup]TM[/sup]"

Maybe you don't realize it, but religions continuously actively recruit - the younger the better. It dosen't work so well on free thinking adults, that's why it seems less obvious to us.

 

[Tiassa]

why can't atheists leave us alone? We Christians don't go along and tell them to believe what we believe, so they shouldn't. We don't tell them to share our faith, so they shouldn't tell us to leave ours.

When I worked in retail, I had to hear about Christmas for six months out of the year. We started getting merchandise, planning bulletins, and display signs in June. You don't tell others to share your faith? Then stop crying because people don't want to attend baby Jesus' birthday party. Other people shouldn't have to hear about your faith half the year in order to have a job. If they want to work in a Christian bookstore, fine. But selling music boxes or CDs or clothes? Why should mall employees have to hear religious songs all month?

You don't tell other people to share your faith? We could do with a little less sharing, in that case.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

If people are meeting in a church they should not be surprised to find church based posters on the walls. You're not in a bowling alley.

If a teacher in a public school is teaching religion that teacher is wrong just as is the teacher who is teaching atheism. It doesn't matter what is being taught, once it crosses over into personal beliefs it should not be taught. I see nothing wrong with discussing religion or non-religion in a public school setting but there is definetely something wrong with proselytizing a personal belief there.

 

[superluminal]

If people are meeting in a church they should not be surprised to find church based posters on the walls. You're not in a bowling alley.

If a teacher in a public school is teaching religion that teacher is wrong just as is the teacher who is teaching atheism. It doesn't matter what is being taught, once it crosses over into personal beliefs it should not be taught. I see nothing wrong with discussing religion or non-religion in a public school setting but there is definetely something wrong with proselytizing a personal belief there.

Nevertheless, the indoctrination of children into xian beliefs is a subtle but ever-present malady in our culture.

Fortunately, I have zero problem explainig to my kids and grandkids that it's all a fantasy that hangs on because of the same kind of peer pressure they might get to smoke, drink, dress a certain way, or do some kind of drugs.

I tell them to think for themselves. If they're lucky, they'll be spared the intellectual tragedy of full-on religious belief.

I have no patience for it.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

Then, we demand your institutions start paying taxes.

We demand your institutions stop abusing children.

We demand your institutions stop actively recruiting.

We demand your institutions stop teaching your cult in schools.

We demand you keep your cults beliefs out of government.

You can demand all you want. So what.

If anyone abuses children or adults for that matter they should be forced to stop. That goes for Christians and for non-Christians, for the religious and for the non-religious, for straights and gays and for everyone else.

Christians will stop actively recruiting when atheists stop actively trying to deny that religion is a part of the warp of life. I am religious and I will not deny my religiosity to placate you or anyone else. I will not cram my religion down your throat as you have claimed others have done but neither will I hide my faith.

A far as I know the active teaching of religion in a school other than a religious school is not allowed. If you know of teachers actively teaching religion in a public school you should report them. Of course if you know of any atheists actively teaching atheism in a public school you should also report them.

I demand you keep your irreligion out of the government. I demand that ;you cease and desist from denigrating religion and people of faith. I demand that you keep your atheism to yourself and stop trying to cram it down the throats of others.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

Nevertheless, the indoctrination of children into xian beliefs is a subtle but ever-present malady in our culture.

The indoctrination of children into atheist beliefs is less subtle but even more present in our culture.

 

[Enmos]

The indoctrination of children into atheist beliefs is less subtle but even more present in our culture.

Huh !? :bugeye:
Explain yourself..

 

[John99]

A simple example, really, but my granddaughters are in girl scouts (as were my daughters, many years ago). Where do almost all girlscouts meet? In a church common room. What's all over the walls of the church common room? Some of the most blatant, repulsive material you could ever hope to find. Posters (directed at kids) saying outright that if you don't follow what jesus says, you're going to eternal damnation. That's a fact.

In a public school, one of my granddaughters teachers was a priest. He gives them assignments based on jesus. They seem innocent enough till you realize that the message the answers imply is that jesus really is the "One True God[sup]TM[/sup]"

Maybe you don't realize it, but religions continuously actively recruit - the younger the better. It dosen't work so well on free thinking adults, that's why it seems less obvious to us.

All options should be made available. Why is the girl scout meeting in the church? You should rustle up some helpers and form your own girl scout chapter. Think about it though, i am sure the pay is not that good.

The other part about the assignments is just odd and sounds like paranoia. Could just be the way you are interpreting things.

When I worked in retail, I had to hear about Christmas for six months out of the year. We started getting merchandise, planning bulletins, and display signs in June. You don't tell others to share your faith? Then stop crying because people don't want to attend baby Jesus' birthday party. Other people shouldn't have to hear about your faith half the year in order to have a job. If they want to work in a Christian bookstore, fine. But selling music boxes or CDs or clothes? Why should mall employees have to hear religious songs all month?

You don't tell other people to share your faith? We could do with a little less sharing, in that case.

Then retail is just not for you. These companies are going to go where the money is and when it is spent etc. As an aside, one of the nicest looking Christmas tree's i ever seen was in a Jewish womans home. When i go into the Muslim shop and they are playing religious music i dont tell them- 'Shut that off, for i am not Muslim. Thus you insult me'

If you ask me, you are probably just better suited to workingh alone.

 

[SnakeLord]

A far as I know the active teaching of religion in a school other than a religious school is not allowed. If you know of teachers actively teaching religion in a public school you should report them.

England: The law states that schools provide a daily act of worship which should be "wholly or mainly of a christian character".

So it basically comes down to either putting up with schools indoctrinating your children with these fairy tales or you pull your child out of these sessions and in doing so make your child feel like an outsider.

It's a fucking disgrace.

 

[superluminal]

You can demand all you want. So what.

If anyone abuses children or adults for that matter they should be forced to stop. That goes for Christians and for non-Christians, for the religious and for the non-religious, for straights and gays and for everyone else.

Christians will stop actively recruiting when atheists stop actively trying to deny that religion is a part of the warp of life. I am religious and I will not deny my religiosity to placate you or anyone else. I will not cram my religion down your throat as you have claimed others have done but neither will I hide my faith.

A far as I know the active teaching of religion in a school other than a religious school is not allowed. If you know of teachers actively teaching religion in a public school you should report them. Of course if you know of any atheists actively teaching atheism in a public school you should also report them.

You sound generally more reasonable than many xians. I for one totally agree with the right to believe what you want.

I demand you keep your irreligion out of the government. I demand that you cease and desist from denigrating religion and people of faith. I demand that you keep your atheism to yourself and stop trying to cram it down the throats of others.

There's a fundamental difference between theists like yourself and atheists that seems to get overlooked by every theist.

Xians have a doctrine. A set of rules. A philosophy. An agenda of conversion and salvation. True? Yes. This leads to xians being certain that their particular set of "guidlines" are the correct ones for personal life and public life as well. True? Yes.

Atheists have one position. There is no compelling evidence for a deity, and certainlty none that lends any credence to rules and regs laid down by people claiming they come directly from such a deity.

That's it.

You can demand we keep our "irreligion" out of the government. Why? Because you want to have undue influence on all people based on your certainty that you are right? Don't you get it?

Xians are the ones taking the active stance that their religion needs to be the guiding principle of, well, every institution. We atheists just say - leave it alone. Let reasoned debate and discussion based on evidence and the good of all be the guiding principle. Not unsupported belief systems.

Simple really.

 

[superluminal]

The indoctrination of children into atheist beliefs is less subtle but even more present in our culture.

Yes. Explain yourself. Atheists have no beliefs.

 

[sandy]

why can't atheists leave us alone?.... We Christians don't go along and tell them to believe what we believe, so they shouldn't. We don't tell them to share our faith, so they shouldn't tell us to leave ours. I don't care if you don't believe in Jesus. We're okay with the fact that you don't believe what we do. I like my faith, and you should be fine with that.

Because they hate Jesus/God. They don't believe in Him. But that's ok. God doesn't believe in atheists either. Therefore, they don't exist.

.... Posters saying outright that if you don't follow what jesus says, you're going to eternal damnation. That's a fact.

That's what the Bible/God teaches. Followers of Christianity believe it to be true. The Bible teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is the one true God. No surprises here either. Of course we "recruit". It's our God-given job to get people back to Him.