The War on Christmas

Avatar said:
In Latvian Christmas tree is called Winter celebrations fir tree or Ziemassvētku eglīte, and it's the original name of it.

Over here Christmas or Winter celebrations as they are called has three faces,
one the christian one, second the capitalistic or consumerism one, third the traditional or paganic one.

The last has never been lost and has been celebrated uninterrupted since anyone has records.
From this one the other two have taken the "christmas tree", and there was a christmas tree before there was any Christ.

So curiously Holiday tree is a more appropriate name for it, because Winter solstice has always been a celebration.
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What is the significance of the tree in pagan celebrations?
 
It symbolizes eternal life.
Juniper, another evergreen, scares away all evil spirits and creatures.

Evergreen trees stay green when all other trees have shed their leaves, they symbolize life which does not die. A good hope in dark and harsh winters.
 
Sandy said:

Is Jesus Christ THAT repulsive to them?
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This is one of those times I agree with you. Instead of calling it a "Holiday Tree", the governor should simply not have a tree. Supremacist bigots should not get state endorsement.
 
Till Eulenspiegel said:
You say someone tried to ram Christianity down your throat yesterday. Did they follow you and harrass you and say you had better become Christian or they would beat you up? Did they threaten to call the authorities on you if you didn't convert to Christianity? Or did they simply mention the fact that they were Christian, something that seems enough to force some non-Christians into throes of apoplexy.
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They were trying to indoctrinate me into their cult, as they always do. You seem to forget that it is they who go out recruiting.

Their tax-free institutions are an abomination to my wallet, as it is I who must continually support them through property taxes which they do not have to pay. The revenues they generate are also free of taxation, yet if I generate revenue from assets, I pay a capital gains tax.

Since there are Christians of every race how is it racist? Are blacks, Asians, Hispanics, excluded from being Christians. Last time I looked there were Ethiopian Christians, Jamaican Christians, Egyptian Christians, Palestinian Christians, European Christians, Korean and Chinese Christians. Maybe you had better inform those people that they are not Christians because Christianity is a racist religion.
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The fact that there are many types of Christians in the world does not preclude the fact that they are racist.

Using your logic, since many milliions have been imprisoned and killed by atheist regimes around the world atheism is an ideology that needs to be eradicated.
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There has never been such a thing as an "atheist" regime. You're being utterly ridiculous.

There are more religious people than atheists in the world so if lack of numbers make a belief a fairy tale that must mean atheism is a fairy tale.
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Funny how theists don't agree with each others beliefs while atheists have common disbeliefs. Since you probably don't believe in Santa Claus, does that make your non-belief a fairy tale?

I am not bitter about my religion because of all the good Christianity has produced over the centuries.
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Wow! Full denial. How quaint.

Since Stalin and Mao were atheists why are you not bitter about your cult of atheism? Why don't you condemn atheists in general because of the actions of the Myanmar government in the Killing Fields?
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They did not act in the name of atheism. That is a fallacious argument.

Face it, Q, you are nothing but an anti-Christian bigot.
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I am against cults of any form that appeal to the supernatural. Your cult is a disease of the mind as any others. It needs to be cured.
 
wsionynw said:
For me Christmas time is just a great holiday that most of the UK enjoy, whether they are Christian or not. If Christians want it to be a religious holiday then so be it, but I don't really care what people call it.
Call it the Winterval, Festive Season, whatever!!!
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No actually it is the other way round, Christmas is a Great Christian Holiday that we are willing to share, with others, but it is still Christmas, now if you wish to set up other holidays do so, but Christmas is Christmas, the other holiday are other holidays, and Festivals and Seasons are not Holidays.


holiday [hälə dā΄]
n.
< ME holidei, with shortened first vowel < OE hāligdæg: see HOLY & DAY
1. HOLY DAY
2. a day of freedom from labor; day set aside for leisure and recreation

Means Holy Day.
 
Enmos said:
St. Nicholas is the Saint that stood model for our 'Sinterklaas'. His birthday is on 5 December rather than 25 December.
I understand that Santa Claus is heavily influenced by the German 'representative' of St. Nicholas. The question that arises is which birthday is the correct one and why do they differ ?

In the Netherlands, Saint Nicholas' eve is the primary occasion for gift-giving, when his reputed birthday is celebrated. In this case, roles are reversed, though, in that Sinterklaas is the one who gives the presents.

In recent years, Christmas (along with Santa Claus) has been pushed by shopkeepers as another gift-giving festival, with some success, although, especially for young children, Saint Nicholas' eve is still much more important than Christmas.

In the days leading up to December 5 (starting when Saint Nicholas has arrived in The Netherlands by steamboat), young children put their shoes in front of the chimneys and sing special 'Sinterklaas-songs'. Often the shoe is filled with a carrot or some hay for the horse of St. Nicholas (called Amerigo). On the next morning they will find a small present in their shoe, ranging from a bag of chocolate coins to a bag of marbles or some other small toy. On the evening of December 5th, Sinterklaas brings presents to every child that has been good in the past year (in practice to all children). This is often done by placing a sack with presents outside the house or living room, after which a neighbour or parent bangs the door or window, pretending to be Sinterklaas' assistant. Another option is to hire or ask someone to dress up as Sinterklaas and deliver the presents personally. Sinterklaas wears a red bishop's dress including a red mitre, rides a white horse over the rooftops and is assisted by many mischievous helpers with black faces and colourful Moorish dresses, dating back two centuries. These helpers are called 'Zwarte Pieten' (black Petes).

In the past number of years, there has been a recurrent discussion about the politically incorrect nature of the Moorish helper. In particular Dutch citizens with backgrounds from Suriname and the Netherlands Antilles feel offended by the Dutch slavery history connected to this emblem and regard the Zwarte Pieten to be racist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas#Celebration_in_the_Netherlands
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As in most traditions that have gained world wide acceptance, local custom enters into the tradition, and every country has a gift giver in its traditions, so it would only be natural to adopted a recognizable character of that tradition.

I Celebrate Christmas, as the recognition of the Birth of Christ, Jesus as we call him, I also Celebrate Christmas, with gifts to give thanks for the greatest gift of all Salvation, and I have no problems with the Fact that St. Nicolas delivers the gifts, as we are suppose to be of a generous nature, and good heart as Christians.
 
Buffalo Roam said:
No actually it is the other way round, Christmas is a Great Christian Holiday that we are willing to share, with others, but it is still Christmas, now if you wish to set up other holidays do so, but Christmas is Christmas, the other holiday are other holidays, and Festivals and Seasons are not Holidays.


holiday [hälə dā΄]
n.
< ME holidei, with shortened first vowel < OE hāligdæg: see HOLY & DAY
1. HOLY DAY
2. a day of freedom from labor; day set aside for leisure and recreation

Means Holy Day.
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Like I said before, I don't care what it means to Christians, to me and just about everybody I know it's a time of year when people can get together and have a good time. Christians don't own December 25th, LOL!! :p
 
(Q) said:
They were trying to indoctrinate me into their cult, as they always do. You seem to forget that it is they who go out recruiting.
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You first said they were ramming their religion down your throat. Now you say they were trying to indoctrinate you. Just how were they trying to indoctrinate you? Were they tieing you to a chair and playing Silent Night over and over? Were they threatening you with torture if you didn't become a Christian? Were they inviting you to become a Christian? Were they simply telling you they were Christian? You have used some pretty strong words with no back up data.

Their tax-free institutions are an abomination to my wallet, as it is I who must continually support them through property taxes which they do not have to pay. The revenues they generate are also free of taxation, yet if I generate revenue from assets, I pay a capital gains tax.
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Reading your posts one would think that only Christians enjoy tax free status. News flash, Q, so do Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Hindus, and a myriad of other religions. Why is all your anger directed toward Christians?



The fact that there are many types of Christians in the world does not preclude the fact that they are racist.
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No, but the fact that they are of every conceivable race does. You are simply being silly with your statement. The facts show you are wrong yet you persist in your wrongheadedness by declaring, "Yeah, but they are racists anyway."



[quote'There has never been such a thing as an "atheist" regime. You're being utterly ridiculous.[/quote]

Any regime that makes atheism one of its central tenets is an atheist regime. It is you who is being utterly ridiculous trying to deny that Stalin and Mao headed atheist regimes.



Funny how theists don't agree with each others beliefs while atheists have common disbeliefs. Since you probably don't believe in Santa Claus, does that make your non-belief a fairy tale?
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This paragraph makes no sense. You're right, I don't believe in Santa Claus. I don't believe in Snow White either, or Rapunzel. Those disbeliefs have nothing to do with my religion and you are simply trying to construct a straw man by indicating that they are somehow related.



Wow! Full denial. How quaint.
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Wow! Not only full denial but full nasty denial on your part. How unquaint but typical.



They did not act in the name of atheism. That is a fallacious argument.
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I guess you think they persecuted theist for some reason other than atheism. Want to tell me what that reason was? Just what ism were they acting in the name of when they persecuted the religious?



I am against cults of any form that appeal to the supernatural. Your cult is a disease of the mind as any others. It needs to be cured.
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You don't agree with my belief so in your arrogance you want my belief stamped out and 'cured'. I happen to not agree with your belief system but I am strong enough in my own beliefs that I don't need to see yours either stamped out or cured. It must be terrible to be so insecure and afraid of people who think differently than you that you feel the need to have their belief systems destroyed.
 
Till Eulenspiegel said:
You first said they were ramming their religion down your throat. Now you say they were trying to indoctrinate you. Just how were they trying to indoctrinate you? Were they tieing you to a chair and playing Silent Night over and over? Were they threatening you with torture if you didn't become a Christian? Were they inviting you to become a Christian? Were they simply telling you they were Christian? You have used some pretty strong words with no back up data.
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The tactics used by evangelists to recruit are not as well known to me as they might be to you, and differ from cult member to cult member. It is irrelevant, unless there is a point to your rant.

Reading your posts one would think that only Christians enjoy tax free status. News flash, Q, so do Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Hindus, and a myriad of other religions. Why is all your anger directed toward Christians?
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I understand that. It is just that there are far more Christian institutions littering the landscape than anything else. Of course, that depends on where one lives, doesn't it?

No, but the fact that they are of every conceivable race does. You are simply being silly with your statement. The facts show you are wrong yet you persist in your wrongheadedness by declaring, "Yeah, but they are racists anyway."
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How little you know of your cults past:

http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/01/ogilvie.html

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/sierichs_12_4.htm

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/misc/flannery.html

Any regime that makes atheism one of its central tenets is an atheist regime. It is you who is being utterly ridiculous trying to deny that Stalin and Mao headed atheist regimes.
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Utterly ridiculous. An atheist regime has never existed. Stalin and Mao supported communist regimes.

This paragraph makes no sense. You're right, I don't believe in Santa Claus. I don't believe in Snow White either, or Rapunzel. Those disbeliefs have nothing to do with my religion and you are simply trying to construct a straw man by indicating that they are somehow related.
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Of course they're related, none are demonstrable beyond ones imagination. The fact that you believe one fairy tale and not another does not preclude the fact that they are all fairy tales.

I guess you think they persecuted theist for some reason other than atheism. Want to tell me what that reason was? Just what ism were they acting in the name of when they persecuted the religious?
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Communism. It is necessary to replace gods with the state in order for communism to work. This has nothing to do with atheism. Theists rarely, if ever, get that.

You don't agree with my belief so in your arrogance you want my belief stamped out and 'cured'. I happen to not agree with your belief system but I am strong enough in my own beliefs that I don't need to see yours either stamped out or cured. It must be terrible to be so insecure and afraid of people who think differently than you that you feel the need to have their belief systems destroyed.
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Your belief systems are dangerous to mankind, that is a fact. Your demonstration of ignorance and denial on this thread is evidence of that fact. Clearly, some education and critical thinking skills on your part might remedy that.
 
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