The two state solution fate

[spidergoat]

So, Palestinians aren't living on their ancestor's land now?

 

[S.A.M.]

Not the ones who are denied access to it. Not being Jews. If they were Jews, they would have access. About 100,000 Jews have immigrated to Palestine in the last decade alone, while Palestinians live in refugee camps and wait in lines to cross checkpoints to tend to their fields.

 

[pjdude1219]

There is that issue of the war. In such an atmosphere, it would have been suicide to re-incorporate the Arabs that fled (probably fearing that they would be killed along with the Jews). That was the Palestinians' best opportunity to come to some agreement, so first they try war, and then when that didn't work, they appeal to the rule of law? There is a legal principle of "clean hands", you can't call the cops because someone stole your stuff when you broke in to take it back and tried to beat up the thief and that didn't work.

your correct in the clean hands principle but not in the analogy to the Israeli/palestianian conflict. you have clean hands if your defending whats yours and its taken by force.

 

[pjdude1219]

No Israel's existence is not a violation of the U.N. Charter.

Again you change the subject, when you get you butt handed to you, So again I ask that you provide citation, of your conjecture about "That the U.N.181 foundation of Israel was in violation of it's charter".

And also that Israel existence is a violation of the U.N. charter, if Israel's existence is a violation so is was the proposed Palestinian State of 181, or any proposed future Palestinian State.

But even above that, the Arab rejection of U.N.G.C.R. 181 made it a moot point, and since the land was no longer under Mandate, or U.N. control because of that rejection, it was open to who ever could hold it.

That is why the Arabs rejected U.N. 181, they though that they could whip the Jews and take the land and hold it.

They had no plans for a Palestinian State, only a Pan Arab State with Palestine west of the Jordan divided between Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

So the Arabs went to War and lost, and then went crying to the U.N. because a bunch of Jews whipped them.

Remember it was the Arabs who forwarded the notion that the UNGCR we not enforceable as point of law.

Your own citation show such as fact.

Its been explained to you already. You claim that 181 creation of a palestinain state was in violation of the charter of the UN shows just how ignorant you are. that would have been in line with self determination and therefore not in violation of the UN charter.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Its been explained to you already. You claim that 181 creation of a palestinain state shows just how ignorant you are. that would have been in line with self determination and therefore not in violation of the UN charter.

The creation of the Israel was in line with self determination of the Jews of The Mandate, they owned land and homes and had industry and agriculture, so therefore in line with U.N. Charter.

And again just because you think you have offered a explanation, it doesn't mean that you have a valid explanation, now provide citation to back you explanation.

For if your explanation is correct it applies to both Jews and Arab Palestinians alike, they both have the right to self determination, as a Jew is Not a Arab and a Arab in not a Jew.

And also you have the problem of th eFact that the Arabs rejected U.N. 181 making it a moot point.

Now since the rejection of UN181 voided any U.N. action, and the British had terminated their Mandate, the land was open for who ever could gain control, and the Arabs lost, and Jews won.

So, the Jews had every right to the land by their right as Victors, just as if the Arabs had won they would have had every righ to that same land.

But the Arabs didn't win, and the Jews remained in their homes and lands and built a Nation.

The Arab States screwed the Arabs of Palestine, first by losing the war, and then by making permanent refudees out of the Arabs of Palestine.

As to the Palestininan State that was and is Jordan.

 

[pjdude1219]

The creation of the Israel was in line with self determination of the Jews of The Mandate, they owned land and homes and had industry and agriculture, so therefore in line with U.N. Charter.
For if your explanation is correct it applies to both Jews and Arab Palestinians alike, they both have the right to self determination, as a Jew is Not a Arab and a Arab in not a Jew.

Wrong the creation of Israel was based on the wants of people not living in the mandate. self determination requires residence in the territory in question. Check out chapter XI article 73 of the UN charter.

And again just because you think you have offered a explanation, it doesn't mean that you have a valid explanation, now provide citation to back you explanation.

just because you didn't understand said explantion doesn't mean it isn't valid.

And also you have the problem of th eFact that the Arabs rejected U.N. 181 making it a moot point.

said fact is irrelevant despite what you think. an arab rejection of a resolution denying them self determination has zero bearing in this.

Now since the rejection of UN181 voided any U.N. action, and the British had terminated their Mandate, the land was open for who ever could gain control, and the Arabs lost, and Jews won.

there is zero legal basis for such a position. but than again what is legal has never been a big concern with neocons like your self.

So, the Jews had every right to the land by their right as Victors, just as if the Arabs had won they would have had every righ to that same land.

God this is why I hate pro-Israeli people. So the reason they had a right to the land would have if consistently applied meant that their immagration there with the intent to form a country was illegal because some one else conquered it in the past. also just because the british mandate ended doesn't negate the palestinian arabs right to self determination.

But the Arabs didn't win, and the Jews remained in their homes and lands and built a Nation.

they took arab lands and homes and built their nation on that.

The Arab States screwed the Arabs of Palestine, first by losing the war, and then by making permanent refudees out of the Arabs of Palestine.

Typical buffalo argument since the arabs denied the palestinian their right to self determination the jews( Israelis) aren't to blame for also denying the palestinians their right to self determination.

As to the Palestininan State that was and is Jordan.

Wrong as usual. Your claim would only have any basis if at some point and time there was no seperation between palestine and transjordan but thats not the case. From the very moment the mandate came into effect they were seperate. The palestinians were a different people to the jordinians politicly which is enough

 

[ElectricFetus]

Does it matter how Israel form, they are their now, we cannot kick them out, what needs to be made is a sensible solution in which the Israel can have their country and the Palestinians theirs, in the long run perhaps one country.

Its simple, but strangely impossible to implements
1. Israel needs to remove settlers or renounce the settlers land to the palestinians.
2. Palestine needs a functional government bent on the establishment of increase standard of living, jobs, homes and a functional economy for the palestinan, instead of bent on destruction of Israel.
3. Israel needs to not invade or control/patrol Palestinians borders with other states, basically Israel need to reduce all interference with palestian to zero.
4. Palestine needs to stop lobbying rockets or attacking Israel, either that or Israel needs to have the balls to ignore all attacks. "When a child has a tantrum don't give it attention."
5. The local Palestines must be given rights by the Arabs states, Israel is not the only one with a "Palestinian problem".

 

[Buffalo Roam]

pjdude.

If it applies to the Arabs of Palestine, it applies to the Jews of Palestine, and people from out side of Palestine were making decisions about the Arabs of Palestine in U.N. 181,and from the British Mandate from the League of Nations before that, so the Jews who has always been in Palestine, had just as much right to self determination as the Arabs.

Sauce for the Arab, Sauce for the Jew, as you have argued.

Both had a right of self determination, and both were indigenous to the west of the Jordan.

Plus the fact that the Jews were smart enough to get title and deed to the Land even if they had to pay taxes on that land, all legal proof of ownership, and as owners and a indigenous people, having the right of self determination of their own fate.

Now provide proof that there were no Jews in the land west of the Jordan River, and that they did not own their lands, and that only Arabs occupied said lands and had title and deed, and paid the tax on the lands they claimed to own.

If the Arabs have no title, deed or record of paying the land tax, the land is not theirs, by any law, Ottoman, British Mandate, Arab, or Jewish,

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Does it matter how Israel form, they are their now, we cannot kick them out, what needs to be made is a sensible solution in which the Israel can have their country and the Palestinians theirs, in the long run perhaps one country.

Its simple, but strangely impossible to implements
1. Israel needs to remove settlers or renounce the settlers land to the palestinians.

Actually, the Palestinians have a land and State, it is called Jordan.

2. Palestine needs a functional government bent on the establishment of increase standard of living, jobs, homes and a functional economy for the palestinan, instead of bent on destruction of Israel.

Can't disagree with this at all.

3. Israel needs to not invade or control/patrol Palestinians borders with other states, basically Israel need to reduce all interference with palestian to zero.

And the Palestinians need to stop the arms smuggling and attacks that are the reason for such patrols and interference.

4. Palestine needs to stop lobbying rockets or attacking Israel, either that or Israel needs to have the balls to ignore all attacks. "When a child has a tantrum don't give it attention."

But when those tantrums kill people, no they cannot be ignored, because that doesn't decrease the Tantrums/Attacks, it encourages even more attacks.

They are accomplishing their objective by killing, and for a policy to be effective you need to remove the reward, for Hamas the reward is the murder of Jews.

5. The local Palestines must be given rights by the Arabs states, Israel is not the only one with a "Palestinian problem".

Exactly, the Arabs need to grant citizenship to all Arab Palestinians in the Refugee camps, and allow them to build a life.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think what the Palestinians want should be considered at least now, since it was not in 1948. Don't you think so? What if they want to go back to Palestine? Forced transfer of a population against their wishes is genocide. Just because you did it to the native Americans [Trail of Tears] does not make it right. Does the US government forbid displaced native Americans from moving back to their original land?

 

[pjdude1219]

Uote]

If it applies to the Arabs of Palestine, it applies to the Jews of Palestine, and people from out side of Palestine were making decisions about the Arabs of Palestine in U.N. 181,and from the British Mandate from the League of Nations before that, so the Jews who has always been in Palestine, had just as much right to self determination as the Arabs.

Sauce for the Arab, Sauce for the Jew, as you have argued.

No the jews had no right to self determination because to do so would strip the arabs of the ability to control their own political future which is what self determination is about. The jews would have had a say in any palestinian state but that wasn't enough for them. They wanted to have total control to impose their culture in an area where they barely had a presence.

Both had a right of self determination, and both were indigenous to the west of the Jordan.

neither were indigenous to the area.

Plus the fact that the Jews were smart enough to get title and deed to the Land even if they had to pay taxes on that land, all legal proof of ownership, and as owners and a indigenous people, having the right of self determination of their own fate.

Go look at what I posted from the UN charter and try and figure out why this has zero bearing.

now provide proof that there were no Jews in the land west of the Jordan River, and that they did not own their lands, and that only Arabs occupied said lands and had title and deed, and paid the tax on the lands they claimed to own.

Once again showing just how ignorant you are. First nowhere does self determination talk about ownership it merely talks about inhabiting an area. While not a legal scholar it is easy to see why this is the case; to protect the rights of people who don't believe in land ownership. Secondly this is a straw man logically fallacy. I have asked numerous times to quit using logical fallacies but you so far have refused. Thirldy your point is bullshit. Jews could have owned all the land and it still wouldn't have given them the right of self determination because as I have told you it would deny basic rights to the arabs which the inverse wouldn't.

If the Arabs have no title, deed or record of paying the land tax, the land is not theirs, by any law, Ottoman, British Mandate, Arab, or Jewish,

once again you ignorance and bigotry is showing. You are trying to force law written to protect the rights of people no matter their beliefs into saying what you want it too.

 

[pjdude1219]

Does it matter how Israel form, they are their now, we cannot kick them out, what needs to be made is a sensible solution in which the Israel can have their country and the Palestinians theirs, in the long run perhaps one country.

Nice thought and sentiment but there is own little problem with it. In any dispute involving the laws justice must prevail.

 

[S.A.M.]

Does it matter how Israel form, they are their now, we cannot kick them out, what needs to be made is a sensible solution in which the Israel can have their country and the Palestinians theirs, in the long run perhaps one country.

Its simple, but strangely impossible to implements
1. Israel needs to remove settlers or renounce the settlers land to the palestinians..

Now here is the problem: define settlers.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No the jews had no right to self determination because to do so would strip the arabs of the ability to control their own political future which is what self determination is about. The jews would have had a say in any palestinian state but that wasn't enough for them. They wanted to have total control to impose their culture in an area where they barely had a presence.

neither were indigenous to the area.

Go look at what I posted from the UN charter and try and figure out why this has zero bearing.

Once again showing just how ignorant you are. First nowhere does self determination talk about ownership it merely talks about inhabiting an area. While not a legal scholar it is easy to see why this is the case; to protect the rights of people who don't believe in land ownership. Secondly this is a straw man logically fallacy. I have asked numerous times to quit using logical fallacies but you so far have refused. Thirldy your point is bullshit. Jews could have owned all the land and it still wouldn't have given them the right of self determination because as I have told you it would deny basic rights to the arabs which the inverse wouldn't.

once again you ignorance and bigotry is showing. You are trying to force law written to protect the rights of people no matter their beliefs into saying what you want it too.

pjdude, to have a Arab State would strip the Jews of right to self determination, they are no less a ethnicity than the Arabs.

So every thing you wish to claim for the Arabs of Palestine, also is applicable to the Jews of Palestine.

The U.N. Charter doesn't differentiate, it is absolutely applicable to all ethnicitys.

So again can you please cite chapter and verse in support of your wild claims?

Show exactly were in the U.N. Charter it states that the right to self determination doesn't extend to the Jews?

Or are you going to do your normal dance routine, like you just did in the above post.#2165539.

You have provided no citation in support of your claims, that the Jews are excluded from self determination, and in Chapter XI article 73 of the UN charter, nothing is stated that the Jews are not included in these rights.

In point of fact this is a exact discription of the Jews of the Palestinian Mandate, at the time of 1947, under the British Mandate and the Charge of that Mandate.

Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of these territories,



So you get a BOLO again as to your citation.

 

[pjdude1219]

Your not paying attention buffalo. Go look up the legal debates about self determination yourself if you don't believe me. Just because your different and a minority doesn't give you the right to self determination which is what your arguing. Yes its kind of shitty but that is the way legal scholars with far better grasp on this than you and me have have said and I'm not going to contradict the experts here.



there is nothing wrong with my citation. Just because I have left things unstated that you don't know about doesn't mean my understanding is lacking. I'm sorry you have a problem with me expecting you to have educated yourself on all the relevant facts before hand. I will not hold your hand and teach you. You need to do that for yourself.

 

[S.A.M.]

How do you define self determination? It has nothing to do with ethnicity or minority status.

Immigrants don't have any self determination in the country they go to. Until and unless they are accepted by the people who live there and recognised as citizens. Unless you kill most of the people who live there and impose yourselves on them. Then they have no self determination.

 

[pjdude1219]

some things to be read about self determination to help the likes of buffalo
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=the+limits...at/item/2009/0103/comm/tenembaum_selfdet.html
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=the+limits...ation.org/selfdetermination/80grosespiell.htm
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=the+limits...digenous/proceedingsExpertSeminarMay2002.html
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=the+limits...om/p/articles/mi_qa3655/is_199807/ai_n8801110


I would also like to note that yes the first link brings you to a Israeli jew whose perspective could be used to refute my argument. I did this for several reasons. Some of the most important being I think having information from a range of sources is needed and I believe my argument is strong enough that even helping my opponents won't allow them to refute it.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Your not paying attention buffalo. Go look up the legal debates about self determination yourself if you don't believe me. Just because your different and a minority doesn't give you the right to self determination which is what your arguing. Yes its kind of shitty but that is the way legal scholars with far better grasp on this than you and me have have said and I'm not going to contradict the experts here.



there is nothing wrong with my citation. Just because I have left things unstated that you don't know about doesn't mean my understanding is lacking. I'm sorry you have a problem with me expecting you to have educated yourself on all the relevant facts before hand. I will not hold your hand and teach you. You need to do that for yourself.

No, that is your job, you are the one who made the claim.

The U.N. charter applies to all, equally, or to none, you can't pick and choose who you want it to apply to, the U.N Charter doesn't exclude Jews from self determination.

So put up or shut up, and you can't.

So your grade is BOLO.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Buffalo Roam,

Come now, Israel has been responding to, barricading, check pointing, bombing, generally oppressing palestinains for decades and has it ending the terrorism?

SAM,

In general I believe it is wrong to feed your addiction as you told us earlier that you needed to quit.

 

[StrawDog]

The U.N. charter applies to all, equally, or to none, you can't pickand choose who you wnat tit to apply to, the U.N Charter doesn't exclude Jews from self determination.

It seems you can pick and choose.

Elements of Resolution 181 which have never been accepted by Israel, include:
1. The creation of a Palestinian State, whose boundaries are specified.
2. The designation of Jerusalem as an International zone.
3. The adoption of a constitution for the Jewish State, of which the State of Israel does not have till today.
4. "No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in a Jewish State should be allowed except for public purposes".
5. Persons residing in Palestine shall "become citizens of the State in which they
are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights."
6. Jaffa should be an Arab Enclave in the Jewish State.
(http://www.jatonyc.org/181.html)