The two state solution fate

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Like the bantustans of South Africa? Or the reservations of USA? Or the aboriginal reserves of Australia? Or India under the British?

I implied a fully functional country, not a reservation. I already stated the occupation must end, what do you want? keep beat the horse? Yes Israel needs to remove all settlements (or better yet leave them there but place all authority over them to the Palestinians), remove all soldiers and check points, open the external borders of the west bank with the Arab states (now it will be the Arab states that decide what and who passes), Wall off the internal border with Israel and pretend that land is dead to them, give sections of Jerusalem to Palestine, wall it off if need be, that city is no stranger to walls. If the Palestinians send suicide bombs or mortar and rockets, shoot those down, wall off the Palestinians from Israel to minimize suicide bombers: don't give them attention, don't give the arabs and the muslims attention.
 
Well then, we're stuck aren't we?

The settlements are not going anywhere. 500,000 Jews are not going to leave without a fight.

Seems to me Israel is extremely short sighted. So they occupy and settle all West Bank. 100%

Then what? They will have peace? Most people who read about yet another settlement simply go: stop the land theft already!

But Israel is blind, deaf and dumb.

I think we should abandon the unfeasible two state. Its time to give the Palestinians citizenship.

This is a pretty good summary of the situation
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...nce-of-peace-is-ever-more-remote-1623010.html
 
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Just read an interesting comment by an Israeli who has moved to the US:

As someone who is [originally] from israel, I can assure FE that merely resorting to non-violent means of resistance will not work against the israeli mentality as it is today. Perhaps it could have worked once, before hearts got harder and minds closed up, but not any longer. I can write a long and boring post about the differences between the US and the israeli cultural models, despite some superficial similarities. maybe another day. But here's one issue to consider:

The US was founded on the concept of assimilation of people from wide backgrounds, classes and origins. In a way, so was israel, with one caveat: such assimilation was a desired outcome only for the jews. No one, even in zionism's heyday (that supposedly illustrious, glorious past before '67) remotedly considered the possibility of integrating WITH (rather than OUTSIDE) the Arab community. This would have been a heresy (as in "proposterous") in any circle - even those of the most open-minded socialist zionist founders. The reason is obvious: a key component of the jewish existence (cultural, religious, what not) is a desire to maintain its "purity' (in parenthesis here because that "purity" is highly suspect and has long ago been compromised). Furthermore, Judaism was never an evangelizing religion (except for a brief period of time in history) unlike most christian and moslem denomination who actively sought new members. Judaism never sought to assimilate others to its world views, customs or traditions, and the halacha makes it quite an ordeal to convert - by design. The opposite is also true - Judaism relied from its very beginning on exceptionalism - virtually by definition (cf the Covenant - singling jews out of all others).

What that means in this context is that the ones who consider themselves jewish in Israel (a consideration that is far from clear, at least to me) do not regard the Arabs as fundamentally integratable with themselves. And if integration is precluded, that means associations are fundamentally limited. One can be colleague and/or collegial with an Arab. But one cannot (or should not, on pain of being ostracized) marry them, date them or otherwise bring them home for dinner. What that leads to unfortunately is a hard separation which so far, only a party like hadash has dared cross (and even that under the guise of "communism", which it has of course ditched long ago). And where there's hard separation, there's no respect, and basically no real empathy (though one can still have sympathy). And where there's no respect, all resistance - whether violent or non-violent - will be regarded with the utmost suspicion, and be reacted to accordingly. Anyone who doesn't believe this should consider the recently concluded escapade in gaza and compare the callousness with which civilians were treated there (the excuse of hamas using all gaza civilians as "human shields" notwithtanding). Then think of the horrified reaction in the US to say, kent state shootings, or the murder of the civil right workers from the South. Would the reaction to such "excesses" be similarly horrifed in israel? or would they find thousand and one ways to rationalize them away - and then proceed to commit some more of the same (a la "show them who's boss")?

I once suggested that palestinians - as a new tactic could declare themselves as really Jewish (why not - many of them probably descend from the original jews anyways) who just happen to have adopted certain customs - christian or moslem or samaritan, etc. They can then demand their right to be absorbed in israel proper under the right of return laws, just as any descendent of jewish refugees could. After all, if one were to look at their customs as compared with, eg, the falashi, there may be many palestinian communities who are more similar to the jews of old (if not the more recent European version) than Israelis would care to admit. Interestingly, the reaction to this [admittedly tongue-in-cheek] exercise in gendankenspiel was far more gut-level angry from israelis (and certain jewish-americans) than from Arabs. Something I found kind of telling. Anyone who doesn't believe it can try this on their own (at your own risk, of course...).

Her other comments are also very illuminating/
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondowei...a-civilrights-battle-for-full-citizenshi.html
 
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I implied a fully functional country, not a reservation. I already stated the occupation must end, what do you want? keep beat the horse? Yes Israel needs to remove all settlements (or better yet leave them there but place all authority over them to the Palestinians), remove all soldiers and check points, open the external borders of the west bank with the Arab states (now it will be the Arab states that decide what and who passes), Wall off the internal border with Israel and pretend that land is dead to them, give sections of Jerusalem to Palestine, wall it off if need be, that city is no stranger to walls. If the Palestinians send suicide bombs or mortar and rockets, shoot those down, wall off the Palestinians from Israel to minimize suicide bombers: don't give them attention, don't give the arabs and the muslims attention.

The Arab States already decide who and what goes in to Gaza and the West Bank, Egypt, has a full border with Gaza, and Jordan has a full border with the West Bank.

There are no Israeli troops or Border Guards on the Border with Egypt and Gaza, Same with Jordan and the West Bank.

Jordan Limits Entry of West Bank Palestinians

By WILLIAM A. ORME JR.
Published: June 13, 2001
In what it called a temporary toughening of its immigration rules, Jordan is making it harder for Palestinians to enter from the West Bank, sparking protests from the many Palestinians who have relatives and business commitments in Jordan.

For more than a week, Palestinians here say, Jordanian officials have been turning Palestinians away at the Jordan River border crossing, saying they must apply beforehand for entry permits from the Interior Ministry.

For decades Jordan granted virtually free entry to Palestinians from the West Bank, which was governed by Jordan from 1948 to 1967.

It is Jordan who has restricted the flow across it's border with the West Bank.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/ahmadsublaban10.html

Crisis looms as thousands wait to cross Jordan border

by Ahmad Sub Laban

The situation has stirred humanitarian and political concerns. Jordan, already 80 percent Palestinian, has been accused of closing its borders in an attempt to regulate its Palestinian population.
 
Citation please.

Can you find me the "scholars" who originally put out the Arab immigration story with data. That would make it easier to find the scholarly refutation.

I have seen this story before and seen the refutation before. I don't want Sciforums to become my job though so I have to limit my research for this stuff.


Your source "HESS-ASHKENAZI Maayan" only exists on the page from which you got it in the English language internet and is just a summary with no data.

Edited maybe I spoke to soon. Rearranging the names might be producing more.
Edited again, "Ma'ayan HESS-ASHKENAZI" is somebody tangential to this story. Her, or his work is not available for refuting and not worth refuting. Who were the real authors responsible for launching and supporting the idea that large numbers of Arabs migrated into Palestine during the mandate or during the 100 years prior to the mandate.
 
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Blind Room said:
It is Jordan who has restricted the flow across it's border with the West Bank.
Crisis looms as thousands wait to cross Jordan border
Still insisting that Gaza is completely free are we, o deluded one?

Other Arab countries have abandoned Palestinians as much as Israel has demanded that they do. And as much as the other countries are motivated by the local political games, and the West and the UN.
 
Like the bantustans of South Africa? Or the reservations of USA? Or the aboriginal reserves of Australia? Or India under the British?

You can't have a functional state under occupation. Thats why its called an occupation. You don't blame the occupied for not adjusting to oppression. You hold the oppressors accountable for their acts.

When elected representatives are marked terrorists and the people cut off from food, water and medical assistance, there is no likelihood of a stable society. Especially when they are sealed tight as a drum from land, air and sea. Their imports controlled and exports banned.



Especially when the oppressors spread like cancer over the society

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064503.html

Thus the natives are fenced in, less they protest too much. I mean really? Who builds a WALL these days? ;)
 
Still insisting that Gaza is completely free are we, o deluded one?

Other Arab countries have abandoned Palestinians as much as Israel has demanded that they do. And as much as the other countries are motivated by the local political games, and the West and the UN.

What I am pointing out is that even the Arabs don't trust the Palestininas any more, they have screwed eveyone who has ever become invlouved with them.

Egypt has sole control of the Crossings it has at the Borders with Gaza, and they are the one restricting access at the border crossing they control, if Egypt wanted to they could open the borders at any time and let what ever flood in and out of Gaza.

Egypt has built a fence completely across the Border with Gaza, from the Mediterainian to the Israeli Border in the east.

Now why is Hammas:

Hamas helps Egypt tighten Gaza border

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Egyptian and Hamas security forces began sealing parts of the Gaza-Egypt border Monday to stem the flow of Palestinians into Egypt, which has dropped off since last week's border breach.


Egyptian soldiers install a fence along the border Monday between Egypt and the Gaza town of Rafah.

The security forces erected barbed wire barriers and constructed metal fences along extensive stretches of the 4-foot-wide wall that separates Egypt and Gaza.




The same with Jordan, 80% of Jordan is Palestinians, and yet they restrict Palestinians from the West Bank access to Jordan, and goods into th eWest Bank.
 
Still insisting that Gaza is completely free are we, o deluded one?

Other Arab countries have abandoned Palestinians as much as Israel has demanded that they do. And as much as the other countries are motivated by the local political games, and the West and the UN.

What I am pointing out is that even the Arabs don't trust the Palestininas any more, they have screwed eveyone who has ever become invlouved with them.

Egypt has sole control of the Crossings it has at the Borders with Gaza, and they are the one restricting access at the border crossing they control, if Egypt wanted to they could open the borders at any time and let what ever flood in and out of Gaza.

Egypt has built a fence completely across the Border with Gaza, from the Mediterainian to the Israeli Border in the east.

Now why is Hamas:


Hamas helps Egypt tighten Gaza border

JERUSALEM (CNN) --
Egyptian and Hamas security forces began sealing parts of the Gaza-Egypt border Monday to stem the flow of Palestinians into Egypt, which has dropped off since last week's border breach.


Egyptian soldiers install a fence along the border Monday between Egypt and the Gaza town of Rafah.

The security forces erected barbed wire barriers and constructed metal fences along extensive stretches of the 4-foot-wide wall that separates Egypt and Gaza.

The same with Jordan, 80% of Jordan is Palestinians, and yet they restrict Palestinians from the West Bank access to Jordan, and goods from Jordan into the West Bank.
 
Every country has border issues. The problem is when occupiers take over other peoples lands and restrict their movements
 
Every country has border issues. The problem is when occupiers take over other peoples lands and restrict their movements


The occupiers restrict their movement?

Egypt is restricting their movement, Jordan is restricting their movement, Hamas is restricting their movement, Israel occupies nothing.

U.N. 181 wasn't implemented, the Arabs rejected it.

And then when they lost they wanted a do over, and lost again, and again, and again.

Israel is not going to be deconstructed, short of a Arab Genocide of the Jews, which isn't going to happen.

Yes, I started laughing my ass off when I found out that Hamas is restricting the movement of Gazans, and helping Egypt in doing so.

Even the Palestinians are fucking themselves over and helping other Arabs to do the same.:shrug:

:roflmao:
 
Note the determination to marginalise an ethnicity, a common thread in societies that develop an exclusive ethnicity of their own.

The Romans, of course, were the principle proselytisers of the civilised stance of a single ethnic ideology; who invented the modern ideas of Republic and vox populi; also they invented statehood, which was usurped by the Iuliani initially, and never returned to any republican representation.

Although they developed a justicial process we still use, statehood invested in a single ruler was the norm until Rome collapsed as an Empire. The symbol of statehood, carried or presented by a Senate to the ruler, were the fasces.
 
U.N. 181 wasn't implemented, the Arabs rejected it.

Lets try to put this old dog to rest, once and for all. The dog being the myth that UNGAR 181 was rejected flippantly, and by the Arabs only.

The reason the Arabs rejected it was:
In 1947 the Arab states rejected it outright as a betrayal. At the UN the newly liberated countries voted against it (India being one of them) because they saw it as an extension of colonial policy.

Which is expanded on below, but the reasoning, based on current experience by the Arabs at the time was:

It was in line with the solutions current in that period, the British tradition of partition to resolve ethnic conflicts in India, Ireland, etc. It was fashionable. It was inevitable because it was a legitimate way of declaring war.

an interview with Meron Benvenisti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meron_Benvenisti)
Benvenisti: Regarding the implementation of UN 181 - From my point of view it was an inevitable decision. It was in line with the solutions current in that period, the British tradition of partition to resolve ethnic conflicts in India, Ireland, etc. It was fashionable. It was inevitable because it was a legitimate way of declaring war. The British left, knowing partition would not be implemented, so UNGAR 181 legitimized the beginning of hostilities, enabling the Jews to profit and get more than their share of Palestine. Nothing of UNGAR 181 was implemented, not the borders, not the economic union, not the provisions that safeguarded the interests of Palestinian inhabitants on a par with Israelis; we tend to forget that within the 181 Jewish state there was an almost equal number of Arabs and Jews. There were provisions to forbid confiscation of land. So UNGAR 181 was a dead letter from the beginning. Later a myth developed that the Jews accepted it and the Arabs rejected it. But the Jews never accepted to honestly implement it. The main aspect of partition rejected by the Jews was the internationalization of Jerusalem.
(Interviewed by Ghassan Khatib - http://friedensbewegung.zionismus.info/verhandlungen/un-181.htm)

Israel is not going to be deconstructed, short of a Arab Genocide of the Jews, which isn't going to happen.

It is plain to see that the only genocide being perpetrated, is of the Palestinians by the hand of the Zionists.
 
The occupiers restrict their movement?

Egypt is restricting their movement, Jordan is restricting their movement, Hamas is restricting their movement, Israel occupies nothing.

Egypt and Jordan are restricting movement into Egypt and Jordan. The Jews are occupying Palestine and are keeping Palestinians as refugees, both the ones they have locked into 2% of their land and the ones they won't let in.

Meanwhile bouncers from Moldova move freely like gangsters through the country.
 
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