The Syrian "Revolution": A Farce from Beginning to End

As CptBork clearly pointed out, you rather let people die because of your views of the US because you believe that they need to learn their place.

Astounding really.

Exactly the opposite.
I believe that if the US takes independent action, that more lives will be lost.
Stop trying to take the moral high ground.
Your viewpoint doesn't warrant it.

I just want to specify that I wasn't citing Captain Kremmen in particular, because I wasn't sure what the exact reason was for his personal opposition. My accusations are meant for people who believe Assad is knowingly massacring thousands of innocents with heavy foreign backing, that a US or allied intervention is begged by large numbers of Syrians and could potentially save more lives than it costs, and that Assad could be stopped or deterred without costing US lives or empowering Al Qaeda, but prefer that nothing be done and condemn those who act in order to prevent America for gaining any further influence.

Billvon's comments about the importance of respecting the Russian veto as well as watching some of the anti-war protests were what triggered me to make my inference, but I wouldn't put Captain Kremmen under the same roof because he's consistently opined that he thinks US intervention will cause even larger numbers of innocents to die. All the same, I'd like to see him put forth some sort of strategy to either settle the issue in Syria or else to contain Assad's allies and prevent the violence and aggression from spreading to innocents in other countries, because I can't see how anything but the worst possible outcome is bound to happen without either getting more foreigners involved in Syria, or else forcing all the existing foreigners on both sides to leave.
 
The refugees that this sectarian violence has created in the surrounding borders is also something to consider. How destabilizing is this going to be for the other countries that border Syria? Will this prompt them to take action?
 
"You are saying that a tactical strike to possibly destroy his chemical weapon's cache is a bad thing? Really?"

Fantasy. How are you going to do that?
And if the rebels take over, and start their round of bloodshed. What then?
Another intervention?
 
I just want to specify that I wasn't citing Captain Kremmen in particular, because I wasn't sure what the exact reason was for his personal opposition. My accusations are meant for people who believe Assad is knowingly massacring thousands of innocents with heavy foreign backing, that a US or allied intervention is begged by large numbers of Syrians and could potentially save more lives than it costs, and that Assad could be stopped or deterred without costing US lives or empowering Al Qaeda, but prefer that nothing be done and condemn those who act in order to prevent America for gaining any further influence.

Billvon's comments about the importance of respecting the Russian veto as well as watching some of the anti-war protests were what triggered me to make my inference, but I wouldn't put Captain Kremmen under the same roof because he's consistently opined that he thinks US intervention will cause even larger numbers of innocents to die. All the same, I'd like to see him put forth some sort of strategy to either settle the issue in Syria or else to contain Assad's allies and prevent the violence and aggression from spreading to innocents in other countries, because I can't see how anything but the worst possible outcome is bound to happen without either getting more foreigners involved in Syria, or else forcing all the existing foreigners on both sides to leave.

I meant it along the lines that his comment was a prime example of what you pointed out.

But he keeps going on about US intervention and its evils in its response to this chemical attack, and how he believes many more civilians will die as a result. He says nothing and offers no criticism of Russia's intervention right from the start.

His position is deeply hypocritical.

Can civilians die if the US does a tactical strike against his chemical weapon stash? Yes. But how many more will die if he uses them again? How many more will die if the Convention suddenly means absolutely nothing and becomes worthless?

To put it into some perpsective. In 10 years, the war in Iraq has claimed just over 115,000 civilian deaths. In two and a half years in Syria, a conservative figure of the death toll is over 100,000, with civilians making up over a third of that conservative estimate, the largest chunk.

However unless Assad moves tens of thousands of people to the locations where they (stockpiles of chemical weapons) are hidden, then it will not be more, as Kremmen seems to believe it will be.

Now add chemical weapons into the fray and watch that death toll rise.

Kremmen's outrage is misplaced. This war has been going on for over 2.5 years. A conservative death toll puts it at over 100,000 deaths as a result of this war. The refugees out of this war is well over 2 million. In all of this, the US has not intervened. Even when politicians in the US begged Obama to at least help the rebels by providing them with arms and support, he refused. Russia on the other hand has been arming, training and providing support to Assad's troops.

And who is Kremmen angry at and why is he angry? That the US may use some missiles to try to prevent further chemical attacks.

It's obscene.
 
"You are saying that a tactical strike to possibly destroy his chemical weapon's cache is a bad thing? Really?"

Fantasy. How are you going to do that?
And if the rebels take over, and start their round of bloodshed. What then?
Another intervention?
So you would rather keep Assad in power and let him keep using chemical weapons on his civilian population?

Lovely.
 
The refugees that this sectarian violence has created in the surrounding borders is also something to consider. How destabilizing is this going to be for the other countries that border Syria? Will this prompt them to take action?

Well over 2 million have fled Syria and are living in refugee camps. Their situation is dire.

Then again, Assad can just get his troops to shoot at them again.
 
The Congressional Front

The Congressional Front

While House Republicans remain at recess, the U.S. Senate has been trying to wrap its collective head around the Syria question. To that end, Roll Call offers the purported markup of the Senate authorization.

Meanwhile, there is a question of whether the congressional leadership is whipping votes or keeping any sort of count; it is unlikely, as this is an unwieldy issue that party leadership will struggle with on both sides of the aisle. Thus, staffers for The Hill offer up their own whip list.
____________________

Notes:

Lesniewski, Niels. "Text of Senate Draft Syria War Authorization". #WGDB. September 3, 2013. Blogs.RollCall.com. September 4, 2013. http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/text-of-senate-draft-syria-war-authorization/

Hill Staff. "The Hill's Syria Whip List: Tough work for Obama to win votes for strike". The Hill. September 4, 2013. TheHill.com. September 4, 2013. http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319933-the-hills-syria-whip-list
 
I have been vacillating on military strikes since the sarin gas attack on the 21st of last month but I am decided now.This is a red line that the international community drew almost a 100 years ago, so it really is not about the POTUS and his red line. I wish that some other country could and would take this burden on but as an American I realize that we are the Superpower at this time in history and it falls on our shoulders to act. I do care, we do care, this cannot stand. This has nothing to do with politics for me it is just plain human decency in the end.

The best case scenario would be to kill all the bastards responsible but since this is unlikely, degrading Assad's ability to win the civil war is the next best thing. I mean really, how can he even think that he will ever to be able to rule his people again?
 
The best case scenario would be to kill all the bastards responsible

OK. Best case - we kill everyone who currently has control of those chemical weapons. Result - the rebels win! Yay! The largest rebel group - al-Nusra (i.e. Al Qaeda) take control of the chemical weapons.

What then?
 
OK. Best case - we kill everyone who currently has control of those chemical weapons. Result - the rebels win! Yay! The largest rebel group - al-Nusra (i.e. Al Qaeda) take control of the chemical weapons.

What then?
We kill them too.
 
59% of Americans are against a US strike.
They must be uncaring hypocrites according to Bells.
http://www.ibtimes.com/majority-americans-oppose-strike-syria-poll-1402504

I wouldn't take polls too seriously just yet- the questions can be misleading or not representative of the full range of options, and the American public still knows very little about what's happening in Syria, what the evidence is and what actions Obama plans to take (not even sure if Obama himself knows at this point). If repeat polls from multiple organizations keep getting the same result, that's certainly different. In any case, America's the one with skin in the game, it's their blood and treasure that would be placed at risk, so the opinions of its citizens can certainly be respected. As far as British or Dutch opinion or what have you, it can only be respected if their opposition to an American strike comes out of genuine concern for the wellbeing of the Syrian people, not from petty trifles about the US being too powerful and having an oversized dick.

@Bells
What if Assad responds to the strike by firing off hundreds of chemical weapons?
What's the next move?

If he's willing to do that in retaliation for an international response to his own genocide, then why wouldn't we expect him to do it anyway once he's re-consolidated control over his country, Hezbollah has overtaken Lebanon, Iraq comes under the domination of a nuclear-armed Iran, and the Iranians are ready to make a power play on the region? At least that's how it seems the Iranians want events to play out, based on the media incitements they regularly put out to their own people.

If Assad attempts another chemical strike, there should be noticeable activity at his chemical storage facilities and heavy artillery batteries, thus presenting an opportunity to avert such an attack before launch. Israel has already distributed gas masks to most of its population and hopefully Jordan and Turkey are doing the same. In the event that Assad successfully launches a massacre on the region, then the logical next step would be to treat him the exact same way we would if the Nazis had done it. If we merely sit back and let the war play itself out, I don't think that chemical stockpile is simply going to disappear, and if Assad's willing to use it on his own people right under the noses of UN inspectors, I doubt that stockpile will stay dormant indefinitely regardless of who ultimately wins the civil war.
 
OK. Best case - we kill everyone who currently has control of those chemical weapons. Result - the rebels win! Yay! The largest rebel group - al-Nusra (i.e. Al Qaeda) take control of the chemical weapons.

What then?

That is a valid fear, but we cannot remain idle and do nothing, that option was taken off the table when Assad decided to kill over 1400 people with sarin gas!
 
That is a valid fear, but we cannot remain idle and do nothing, that option was taken off the table when Assad decided to kill over 1400 people with sarin gas!

Yes we can, as hard as that might be to do. If we make a bad situation worse, then WE are responsible for what happens. We must not do that.

The most basic rule that doctors practice is "first, do no harm." If the result of our meddling is that 10,000 innocent Syrians are killed (sorry, collateral damage) and Al Qaeda has stockpiles of chemical weapons, we will have done more harm than Assad ever did.
 
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