The Syrian "Revolution": A Farce from Beginning to End

I really doubt a small one day strike on a handfull of targets will result in "catastrophic consequences" for syria or all of the middle east.

That depends.

The impact of a bomb is not, these days, in any way limited to the crater it creates and the people it kills or wounds. American bombs in Syria will be pointed to and said to be against the Alawites, or the fascists, in support of the Islamists, or not sufficiently in support of the Islamists so that when Syria falls to extremists the Americans - and/or the West, or whatever definition is proffered - may be said to have been insufficiently supportive of the Islamist rebels; and anyway don't their women drive cars? And so on. A bomb is a statement. It would be so much simpler if it were really just a bomb.
 
That depends.

The impact of a bomb is not, these days, in any way limited to the crater it creates and the people it kills or wounds. American bombs in Syria will be pointed to and said to be against the Alawites, or the fascists, in support of the Islamists, or not sufficiently in support of the Islamists so that when Syria falls to extremists the Americans - and/or the West, or whatever definition is proffered - may be said to have been insufficiently supportive of the Islamist rebels; and anyway don't their women drive cars? And so on. A bomb is a statement. It would be so much simpler if it were really just a bomb.

A bomb is a statement, in this case saying "don't use chemical weapons" ignoring their use would encourage others to go ahead and do so.

More importantly a small strike of syria is not likely to give the rebels much favour or change the final outcome of Syria or the middle east revolutions.
 
I think NATO

Is this really going to be a NATO operation? My impression is that NATO, as an organization, hasn't even been asked to endorse this, probably since it's understood that a number of NATO members oppose it. Again, my impression is that this is the US, Turkey and some of the Europeans acting on their own initiative. (There's been no attempt that I can see to get any UN approval either.)

is going to strike a few targets and call it a day, it literally might be a one day strike!

They appear to be setting up to lob in about 200 Tomahawk cruise missiles. About the same size strike that led off the Libyan campaign against Qaddafi. The difference this time is that I don't think that there's going to be any sustained air campaign following that.

Then they will anounce to the world that they "did something" when overall they will not have done anything at all other then kill a few peope a blew up some military instilations and equipment.

The cruise missiles will probably target the Syrian airforce. The goal is probably to degrade its ability to launch airstrikes against the rebels and to provide air support for government ground troops. Probably the hope is doing that will throw the advantage over to the rebels. Runways will get cratered and as many aircraft hangers blown up as possible, along with radars, surface to air missiles, and similar stuff. They will probably hit army supply dumps too. Assad's people are probably hurredly dispersing and hiding their assets as we speak.

Given that the rebels seem to be heavily laden with anti-Western Islamists, I'm not sure why the US and some of the Europeans are in such a rush to help them win. Sure, Assad is a dictatorial jerk. But at least he supports the rights of religious minorities. (Not because he's a nice guy, but because he's a member of a religious minority himself.) And he's a modernist/secularist. I'm not convinced that a rebel victory would be much of an improvement for the Syrian people. It will either be a Sunni Islamist clampdown, or else a prolonged period of instability and civil war as factions fight factions.

I hate to say it as an American, but I kind of agree with Putin on this one.
 
Is this really going to be a NATO operation? My impression is that NATO, as an organization, hasn't even been asked to endorse this, probably since it's understood that a number of NATO members oppose it. Again, my impression is that this is the US, Turkey and some of the Europeans acting on their own initiative. (There's been no attempt that I can see to get any UN approval either.)

Basically NATO. Russia and China are certainly not going to join in and besides they are not NATO

Given that the rebels seem to be heavily laden with anti-Western Islamists, I'm not sure why the US and some of the Europeans are in such a rush to help them win.

They are not, which is why this as gone on for so long and why strikes against the Syrian military will likely be minor.

Sure, Assad is a dictatorial jerk. But at least he supports the rights of religious minorities. (Not because he's a nice guy, but because he's a member of a religious minority himself.) And he's a modernist/secularist. I'm not convinced that a rebel victory would be much of an improvement for the Syrian people. It will either be a Sunni Islamist clampdown, or else a prolonged period of instability and civil war as factions fight factions.

I hate to say it as an American, but I kind of agree with Putin on this one.

The Russians most certainly don't give a shit about the Syrian people rather they care about their bases in Syria and the money the make selling weapons to Assad.
 
"We"? Only a government source can be "we". A retired colonel (in a curiously timed new conspiracy theory) doesn't qualify as "we" and the Daily Mail doesn't qualify as a mainstream source. Mainstream means reputable.

It's not a theory anymore. The documents prove it.
 
Not "specifically", no, but your dodging of direct answers to the questions you asked(!) implies that you think it is so. Why not answer the question directly: Do you think that a country using chemical weapons on its own civilians should be immediately condemned?

That's not relevance, that's a reiteration of the statement itself: I'm aware that some people say the US has a do as I say, not as I do attitude. So what? Your answer does not say why you think it matters.

No, they don't. They address the question you asked which was what gives anyone the moral authority to intervene, period. That is a completely separate issue from whether other countries created it. Your question said nothing about other countries created the problem. You're dodging your own question!

Different about what, from what?

Indeed: I have a very strong bias toward reputable, mainstream sources because I am driven by a desire to be led by facts/truth. You and several others apparently have a very strong bias in favor of crackpottery when it favors your position.

To the contrary, some military actions have in the past ended the suffering and death.

No one is suggesting we destroy Syria. That's not on the table. Your (and others) continued referencing of it is a strawman.

References of Iraq and Afghanistan are strawmen. Our involvement in Syria will not resemble those actions at all. It will look like Libya, which directly led to an ending of the suffering and death.

This is an internal struggle, so there isn't anything for diplomacy to do. Yet, to be sure, people have tried.

As said previously: that opinion means that you think the UN should be dissolved because the UN charter and other mandates contain such rights.

No. No one is suggesting "boots on the ground" in Syria and Iran isn't even a topic of conversation here. Both are just strawmen you and others are bringing up.

As said, I have a strong bias toward reliable facts and truth.

If your bias prevents you from accepting positions not consistent with your beliefs or worse demands rejection of proven facts because they say things you don't want to believe then yes, you may be wasting your time.

I notice nothing in your post addressed the issue of the current suffering of the Syrian people. That's despicable.

You, billvon and others: your positions seem calibrated to contradict the US, regardless of the fact that the US's opinion is widely held in the West and regardless of what is happening to the Syrian people. Regardless of whether the Syrian government used the chemical weapons, it still happened. If you honestly believed the Syrian rebels used chemical weapons on themselves/each other (and if you cared), you should be proposing a course of action designed to stop that rather than merely opposing the chosen course of action. For example, if the rebels are the ones who used the chemical weapons, the only place they could have gotten them is from the Syrian government. So our response should be to send troops in to seize and secure the Syrian government's chemical weapons. Right?

YYUR,YYUB,ICURYY4ME !!??!!

Bend, Fold, Mutilate!!

Selective input filters! Redundant output!

You cannot read my writing - yet you can know what I think - and all without bias, prejudice or preconceptions - truly awesome.

I must repeat : YYUR,YYUB,ICURYY4ME ??!!??

Your statement : - "Not "specifically", no, but your dodging of direct answers to the questions you asked(!) implies that you think it is so.
How is : - a.) - I DID NOT state, NOR do I think "that one country's bad actions excuse another country's bad actions".
b.) - I DID NOT "specifically" state, NOR do I "specifically" think "that the US doing bad things makes it morally acceptable for Syria to do bad things." - "dodging of direct answers" ?!!
Then you ask : - " Why not answer the question directly: Do you think that a country using chemical weapons on its own civilians should be immediately condemned?"
MY ANSWER! : - I think a that a country using weapons of any kind on it's own populace, or another nations populace, just plain flat out WRONG - and should be a lot more than just "immediately condemned"!

Your statement : - "For example, if the rebels are the ones who used the chemical weapons, the only place they could have gotten them is from the Syrian government."
The logic, intelligence and critical thinking that initiated that statement is, indeed, impeccable and without flaw. A shining example of a truly independent thought from an exceptionally well informed world citizen.

Of course my blinders are precisely calibrated, Mr. Russ_Watters, how else would I possibly be able (in your genius perception) to not see that the precision surgical strikes on only military targets, taking only hours, or at most, a few days, with no "boots on the ground", have not completely eliminated the suffering and death of the citizens of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya...

I must, in your world view, be nothing but a "conspiracy theorist" - a purveyor of "crack pottery" and a "strawman".

But, hey, my views, thoughts or perceptions obviously fail miserably at getting past your filters. And of course - by you knowing what I think before even I do - I cannot care about the suffering of any nations civilians.
I mean, after all, if I did - why would I be Posting in this Thread?

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Mr. Russ_Watters, go ahead and keep on accepting that fraudulent "Bill of Goods" that the "Mass Media " has repeatedly "sold" to you, and keep on satiating your "thirst for True Knowledge" with the "Kool-Aid" that is dispensed.
It seems to have made you immeasurably wise to this point - there would seem to be no reason to change that.
 
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They deserve to have Assad's regime and his chemical weapons wiped out. This does mean that civilians will die, unfortunately there is no other way.

Wiping out Assad’s chemical weapons would likely kill more civilians and it could in advertently put chemical weapons in the hands of terrorists like al-Qaeda. Blowing up those weapons without hazarding civilians is not as easy or as clean as some people imagine. Can you imagine the headlines and the PR bonanza that would hand to groups like al-Qaeda if civilians were accidentally gassed in a US attempt to destroy Assad’s chemical weapons?

And then what happens after the Assad regime falls? That is the problem. There is no solid and unified opposition to the Assad government. The Assad opposition consists of a bunch of fragmented groups, including terrorist and fanatical groups like al-Qaeda. So you basically jump from the frying pan into the fire by toppling Assad. So unless and until, a unified capable Assad opposition arises, the future remains bleak for your average Syrian. Unfortunately Syrian civilians are going to die no matter what happens in Syria. Syria is a no win situation.

That is why the US and its allies will likely do some token military strikes to make a statement and walk away and at the end of the day nothing much will have changed in Syria.
 
They deserve to have Assad's regime and his chemical weapons wiped out. This does mean that civilians will die, unfortunately there is no other way.

OK. How many innocent people deserve to die at our hand to accomplish that? 10,000? 100,000?
 
And then what happens after the Assad regime falls? That is the problem. There is no solid and unified opposition to the Assad government. The Assad opposition consists of a bunch of fragmented groups, including terrorist and fanatical groups like al-Qaeda. So you basically jump from the frying pan into the fire by toppling Assad. So unless and until, a unified capable Assad opposition arises, the future remains bleak for your average Syrian. Unfortunately Syrian civilians are going to die no matter what happens in Syria. Syria is a no win situation.

I agree with Joepistole. (This just in - Ice-skating in Hell! This is the first time we've ever agreed and it probably scares Joe as much as it scares me.)

That's why I suggested that in this instance, I don't entirely disagree with Putin. Assad is a complete dictatorial jerk, but if the rebels overthrow him, things are likely to just get worse. Syria looks to me like a classic battle of assholes vs. assholes. So I'm not convinced that the West should be cheerleading the rebels, annointing them as the good-guys, calling for arming them, or flying air-strikes on their behalf. Ugly as it sounds, there might actually be something to say for propping up Assad.

But that's not our job. My opinion is that the US, UK, France and co. should just stand clear of the whole nasty thing. This doesn't look to me like a fight that we should be involved in.
 
How many innocent people would die if Al Quida or some other terrorist group got their hands on chemical weapons?

This was the same rationale we used to go to war in Iraq - terrorists getting their hands on WMD's. They would attack the US! We can't wait until they attack with WMD's! That turned out to be a canard as well. The old saying "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" would seem to apply.

(Historically, they HAVE gotten their hands on chemical weapons and killed a few dozen people in Iraq. We killed 300,000 innocent civilians during WWII with WMD's. So they actually have a better track record than we do.)
 
This was the same rationale we used to go to war in Iraq - terrorists getting their hands on WMD's. They would attack the US! We can't wait until they attack with WMD's! That turned out to be a canard as well. The old saying "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" would seem to apply.

(Historically, they HAVE gotten their hands on chemical weapons and killed a few dozen people in Iraq. We killed 300,000 innocent civilians during WWII with WMD's. So they actually have a better track record than we do.)
WWII non-sequitur aside, that was just one of many reasons for the Iraq Resolution. And I for one am happy that Saddam no longer threatens anyone.
 
(And what if Assad topples like a patsy?)

Russ Watters said:

I suggest we use a convenient, salient number from recent news: the 100,000 who have already died.

Yeah, we could rack that up from the air.

See, my problem is that nothing I'm coming up with will work. Rather, that is to say, I suppose it can work, but I would be banking on strict fulfillment of unreasonably optimistic presuppositions, namely the one that nothing actually fails to go exactly as planned.

Again, on both questions/points: see Libya.

Then let us spend as much as we need to arm and outfit a U.N. team and keep our people the hell off the battlefield.

To the other, that's not realistic, is it?

As I said, even as a pacifist, I get that sometimes it's time to send them marching out. I just have no good ideas to how to go about it, and there are very specific reasons American public support for this military mission is way, way down.

Can we be fast enough to contain doomsday? Can we rely on the Syrian generals to say no when the order comes down? And can we take down the doomsday weapons, the chemical agents, without sending ground troops in? Can we perfectly destroy them from the air? I mean, it's technically possible to wreck the regime and destroy the chemical weapons without spending an American life, but just to be clear, we can easily rack up a hundred thousand collateral deaths from the air.

I get it insofar as one way or another, this mission is going to happen. And I am one who also accepts that it must happen. I just haven't a clue how this can go well.

And we haven't even added in the rising Congressional heat and how that might affect the process going forward.
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Notes:

Miklaszewski, Jim, Courtney Kube, and Keir Simmons. "US official says Syria crisis is 'past the point of no return' as UN members meet". NBC News. August 28, 2013. WorldNews.NBCNews.com. August 28, 2013. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...ast-the-point-of-no-return-as-un-members-meet
 
WWII non-sequitur aside, that was just one of many reasons for the Iraq Resolution. And I for one am happy that Saddam no longer threatens anyone.

Saddam - agreed, it is a good thing he is gone. However, the end of his reign was not worth the deaths of 4400 Americans and 100,000 Iraqis.

And if we do attack Syria we will no doubt use the same sort of revision afterwards - "well, OK, he wasn't gassing people, but that's not the only reason we attacked - and aren't we better off without him?" This kind of duplicity is the primary reason so few people support an attack. They've been lied to before.
 
Saddam - agreed, it is a good thing he is gone. However, the end of his reign was not worth the deaths of 4400 Americans and 100,000 Iraqis.

And if we do attack Syria we will no doubt use the same sort of revision afterwards - "well, OK, he wasn't gassing people, but that's not the only reason we attacked - and aren't we better off without him?" This kind of duplicity is the primary reason so few people support an attack. They've been lied to before.
It wasn't a revision, read the Iraq Resolution.


Iraq's noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 ceasefire agreement, including interference with U.N. weapons inspectors.
Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."
Iraq's "brutal repression of its civilian population."
Iraq's "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".
Iraq's hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the 1993 assassination attempt on former President George H. W. Bush and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.
Iraq's "continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations," including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
Iraq paid bounty to families of suicide bombers.
The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, and those who aided or harbored them.
The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
The governments in Turkey, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia feared Saddam and wanted him removed from power.
Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.
 
... " Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq. "

...is this the same " al-Qaeda " ? ! ? : - http://familysurvivalprotocol.com/2...ama-now-openly-siding-with-al-qaeda-in-syria/

...just...A Farce from Beginning to End

...more...? ! ? : - http://www.zerohedge.com/contribute...ies-bush’s-sidelining-weapons-inspectors-iraq

...just...A Farce from Beginning to End
 
I'm surprised at how cold the feet of American and British legislators are now... WHERE THE FUCK WAS THAT KIND CATION BEFORE IRAQ?!?!?
 
ElectricFetus, this from WRH.com :
quote - " The problem for the US and England is that these countries cannot find a way to "sell" this war that either their legislatures or people will "buy".

And the US government knows that without an invasion of Syria, then Iran, and in short order to force Iran to accept only US dollars for its oil, the US economy will collapse.

Cornered animals, and governments, are very dangerous. Unfortunately, we are not out of the woods regarding a potential strike against both Syria and Iran for that reason. " - unquote


...more...? ! ? : - http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-...are-in-possession-of-chemical-weapons/5347335

...also...: - http://www.blacklistednews.com/Thes...unding_Syria_Right_Now/28486/0/38/38/Y/M.html

...just...A Farce from Beginning to End
 
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