THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know

[surenderer]

Hello muhammad:

Accorrding to muslims is Jesus a false prophet?

Peace be with you, Paul

I can answer this if you dont mind........Jesus(pbuh) was definatly not a "false Prophet" The Koran mentions the names of 25 prophets and indicates that there have been others who were not mentioned to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). These 25 include Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (Peace be upon them all). These five are the greatest among God's messengers. They are called 'the resolute' prophets.The Koran also states that (interpetation of meaning):


Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob, and their children, and that which Moses and Jesus received and that the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered. (2:136)


Hope that helps

peace unto you :m:

 

[surenderer]

Has equality between men and women ever been practiced in ANY Islamic countries? (in case you were thinking of it, no, women do not have equal rights with men in all of Indonesia. As a matter of fact, the more conservative Islamic the region is, often equates to the less equal it becomes.)

Your posts are kinda long winded(no offense meant) so I will answer back little by little........it's interesting that you mention Indonesia though since they have had a Woman leader....something most of the West cant claim. But as far as Equality in Islam I think me and you (as Muslim and non-Muslim) have different ideas. For example it is the man's job in Islam to support the family.His income goes not to himself but to the whole family(including sisters if their father is dead or needy relatives etc..). The wifes income however is hers and hers only and cant be touched by the husband or anyone else in the family.Now it's true that in the case of inheratence(sp) that a man usually recieves twice as much as the woman would recieve but that is for the reason I stated above. So while this wouldnt be considered an equal right it is definatly(IMO) a complimentary right....this is what should be practiced in Islamic societies but is far from what is practiced in countries such as Arabia or what the Taliban practiced

 

[Michael]

Thanks everneo, although I wouldn’t agree with everything you said, what you have written is sensible and much of it I do agree with.

I would just add that as a Ideologies, I can see little to no difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. If Europe where Islamic I think their societies would be pretty much just as they are now (relatively secular) and if the entire ME were Jewish or Christian; I think the ME would still be in the mess it appears to be in. I’m of the opinion that culture is more influential than religious belief.

However, because Islam is supposed to be from God and thus “perfect” then I should be able to hold it to the highest standard. If I look into the 1500 years of its use and find it has done little to nothing for the societies the practice it, then I needn’t be the judge, History already has and History (not me) has found it wanting. Well, that’s the rational for my debate anyhow.

Thanks again,
Michael

 

[WildBlueYonder]

peace on those who follow the right way to (alla)[/SIZE]

why 'peace' to only those that follow islam? that is not very understanding or tolerant of all the rest of humanity

the only great and unique god for the whole world and planets

alla was an arabic crescent-moon god from Mecca, before Mohhamid reformed him into monotheism, not great nor unique, just one god among many, until he got a champion in Mohhamid

also, ask an iman about alla's wife (allat)& daughters (el-Lat, el-Uzza, and Manat)
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~batsto/Arab.html
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-allahs-daughters.htm

and all mankind and the only god who made everything .. made your brain and gave you eyes and life

since alla is an arabic tribal god, he is not worthy to be a universal god, poor fellow only understands arabic for crying out loud!

and he can take it and stop you from thinking and can force you to believe in him and erase all data programmed in your mind that give you ability to think there is another god

you should watch the movie "Matrix", it might scare you

did you study the cells and biology ??

yes, got a "A" in biology, an "A" in neurophysiology (how our brain & nerves work) and a "C" in physiology (dissecting a cat & trying to find all the muscles & naming them for a test on a human corpse is gross)

alla made your brain cells and each millimeter from it

No God did, Yahweh is the only true God, the Creator of Life & the Universe

he could program your brain to know him only and never think in another god
could program you to do all right things and never make mistakes

God never wanted robots, but free thinkers, free will, free choice

alla doesnt force people to believe in him

but his followers do, see the wars that early islam started for conquest, plunder, slaves, you can 'google' that

but ..... its a test .... big and hard test so he gives you the freedom to choose till this test ends and at last ...... heavens forever
or ... hell forever

it is a test, choose the Wide Broad Road that leads to perdition or the Narrow Road that leads to God, Jesus said that, "He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father, except through Him". Now I'm willing to bet my life & eternal soul on what Jesus said, not on Mohhamid's fallible quran or his life's example.
See below:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#14

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

or:
http://members.aol.com/intoutreach/NarrowWay.html
http://www.bbnradio.org/bbn/how_to_get_to_heaven.htm

 

[Michael]

Your posts are kinda long winded(no offense meant) so I will answer back little by little........

fair enough But I would like to have some feedback.

Especially to my question on whether any civilization/society in the last 1500 years has followed Islam “correctly”? Which one and when?

 

[Michael]

it's interesting that you mention Indonesia though since they have had a Woman leader....something most of the West cant claim.

Lets not forget Queen Elizabeth II along with PM Margaret Thatcher in England (That’s two women at the top!)

I wouldn’t be proud to wave Indonesia as the penultimate of Islam (Ache, East Timor, etc . . . ). Regardless, as a whole, Indonesia does not consider women to be equal under the law.

Anyway, are you saying that Islam is the reason why Indonesia had a female PM? I think that would be a hard case to make. In actuality, I think you’ll find a female Indonesian PM has nothing to with Islam and is a direct result of indigenous Indonesian culture and how it was influenced by Dutch colonization, the recent Japanese occupation and fallout of WWII, English colonial regional influence and finally recent modern US global influence.

 

[Michael]

I found this to be very interesting and telling: From the BBC: Saudis feel winds of change.

The first round of nationwide municipal elections was held on Thursday

Even though women were excluded and the men only elected half of the council's members, it was still something of a milestone in this absolute monarchy. At the polling stations, many of those who had just cast their ballots wanted to tell me how they felt: they were happy, excited, proud; many said it was a first step towards democracy, but all of them said they wanted more change.

There is definitely a new openness here. People want to talk and once they start, there is no stopping them.

I have heard some pretty radical thoughts. One man in his mid-30s complained to me about the grip the religious establishment had on the country, he said they had destroyed Saudi Arabia and its culture and made everybody's life miserable.

His friends joined the conversation and all nodded in approval.

If we could look into the future I think we’ll find that early pagans (read: Greece then Roma) culminating in the Scottish Bill of Rights and it reinterpretation by Thomas Jefferson will have had much more of a positive social effect (as well as powerful) than anything written in the Qur’an. That is unless you can show otherwise?

Because the societies that adopt various forms of democracy (secular being the penultimate) flourish. We can point to them, and see how much they have acheived. And once people have sovereignty in their grasp they rarely relinquish their grip.

If History is any means to go by; I can predict fairly accurately that the world will not eventuate in Islam, but rather secular democracy. It’s a much more powerful and useful ideology. And by the rather large number of people that went to the polls in Saudi Arabia, I think it is only a matter of time.

 

[surenderer]

Lets not forget Queen Elizabeth II along with PM Margaret Thatcher in England (That’s two women at the top!)




Thus the term "most"[/I



I wouldn’t be proud to wave Indonesia as the penultimate of Islam


But there are more Muslims there than in the entire M.E. Although I wouldnt do that either its a better situation to gauge things by




Regardless, as a whole, Indonesia does not consider women to be equal under the law.



I could make the same argument for the U.S......until the 1960's women werent given the same right as men and even today women arent treated as equal(despite what the laws say) to men




Anyway, are you saying that Islam is the reason why Indonesia had a female PM?




No....but what I am saying is that a country that has a 97% Muslim population can have a Muslim Woman President (Megawati Sukarnoputri)



I think you’ll find a female Indonesian PM has nothing to with Islam and is a direct result of indigenous Indonesian culture and how it was influenced by Dutch colonization, the recent Japanese occupation and fallout of WWII, English colonial regional influence and finally recent modern US global influence



Actually the culture is the very thing that she fought (as a woman) to become President yet she was still voted to 8th most powerful woman in 2004.......you cant put all positive influences on the West

http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists...ListType=Person&uniqueId=MVC8&datatype=Person




peace :m:

 

[Michael]

Lets not forget Queen Elizabeth II along with PM Margaret Thatcher in England (That’s two women at the top!)

Thus the term "most"[/I

Then why bring it up? Other than to say that Islamic AND non-Islamic countries typically elect (or in many countries - are subjugated by) men.

Anyway, I am still waiting on the:

Has any civilization/society in the last 1500 years followed Islam “correctly”?

Which one and when?

 

[surenderer]

Then why bring it up? Other than to say that Islamic AND non-Islamic countries typically elect (or in many countries - are subjugated by) men.

Anyway, I am still waiting on the:

Has any civilization/society in the last 1500 years followed Islam “correctly”?

Which one and when?

Well the short answer is I dont know..........I do know that the best leaders were 'The Rightly-Guided Caliphs' (Al-Khulafa-ur Rashidun in Arabic). They are the first four Caliphs: Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman and Ali..... After these four, the later Caliphs assumed the manners of kings and emperors and the true spirit of equality of ruler and ruled diminished to a considerable extent in the political life of Muslims. The primary responsibility of an Islamic government is still the same as it was in the days of the early Caliphs...... to make all laws in accordance with the Qur'an and the Sunnah, to make positive efforts to create and maintain conditions under which it will be possible and easy for Muslims to live an Islamic life, to secure impartial and speedy justice for all, and to strive hard in the path of God. Any government which is committed to such a policy is truly following the message delivered by the Prophet (peace be on him). Unfortunatly (to me anyway) Corruption and Puppets seem to dominate Islamic leadership against the peoples wishes often.......does this make the problem Islam?...I dont think so not when Islam speaks out specifically against these types of things....I guess to show me that Islam would be the problem one would have to show me a country living under a Sharia and then show me why it doesnt work...I am not a historian or an expert though so this is just my opinion

 

[Michael]

Well the short answer is I dont know..........I do know that the best leaders were 'The Rightly-Guided Caliphs' (Al-Khulafa-ur Rashidun in Arabic). They are the first four Caliphs: Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman and Ali.....

I hope you don’t mind if I ask a few questions:
- When and for how long did they reign?
- What exact land was under their influence?
- Did they eliminate Slavery during their time in power?

After these four, the later Caliphs assumed the manners of kings and emperors and the true spirit of equality of ruler and ruled diminished to a considerable extent in the political life of Muslims. The primary responsibility of an Islamic government is still the same as it was in the days of the early Caliphs...... to make all laws in accordance with the Qur'an and the Sunnah, to make positive efforts to create and maintain conditions under which it will be possible and easy for Muslims to live an Islamic life, to secure impartial and speedy justice for all, and to strive hard in the path of God.

What if a person living under this sort of government doesn’t want to be Muslim? Maybe they want to worship and idolize Satin instead. It is their soul after all – should they not have the right to do with it what they will? And it is their individual relationship with God after all. The States relationship with God 'The Rightly-Guided Caliphs' or not, is not (I presume) what God is going to judge a person by, it will be this individuals relationship with God that will be Judged. As that is the case, do you think they should have the right to damn themselves if that is how they so choose to live? Would 'The Rightly-Guided Caliphs' allow them their God-given free will of self determination to act as such and to do as much even to worship Satan as they might wish to do so?

Any government which is committed to such a policy is truly following the message delivered by the Prophet (peace be on him). Unfortunatly (to me anyway) Corruption and Puppets seem to dominate Islamic leadership against the peoples wishes often.......does this make the problem Islam?...I dont think so not when Islam speaks out specifically against these types of things....I guess to show me that Islam would be the problem one would have to show me a country living under a Sharia and then show me why it doesnt work...I am not a historian or an expert though so this is just my opinion

Can you see how you are arguing that it is the fault of the people? There has never been a Islamic State. But many have tried to make one. And in the end they have all failed. I would say that the fault lies with the ideology. But hey, it has only been 1500 year, so maybe we should continue to try and get it to work? But for how long? How long before we can say – hey this just is not ever going to work.

Let me rewrite what was written and see if it makes more sense:

Any government which is committed to such a policy is truly following the doctrine written by Karl Marx. Unfortunately (to me anyway) Corruption and Puppets seem to dominate the Communist leadership against the peoples wishes often.......does this make the problem Communism?...I don’t think so not when Communism speaks out specifically against these types of things....I guess to show me that Communism would be the problem one would have to show me a country living under a Communist doctrine and then show me why it doesn’t work...I am not a historian or an expert though so this is just my opinion

Can you see how you are arguing that it is the fault of the people. There has never been a Communist State. But many have tried to make one. And in the end they have all failed. I would say that the fault lies with the ideology. But hey, it has only been 80 year so maybe we should continue to try and get it to work? But for how long? How long before we can say – hey this just is not ever going to work.

I guess that is what I see as a major problem with Religious ideology, and really it says something about the human condition and our need for redemption and our fear of death, huh?

Luckily enough, minus some major catastrophe like God turning out to be real and judging man or a meteor smacking into the planet, sometime in the next 50 to 200 years max we will have eliminated the natural causes of the second and probably will see the slow and inevitable decline of most Middle Eastern religions in favor for their more philosophical cousins in the far east. Which I at least think may be a good thing

 

[battig1370]

battig1370: > "Accorrding to muslims is Jesus a false prophet?"

surenderer: > "I can answer this if you dont mind........Jesus(pbuh) was definatly not a "false Prophet"

battig1370: > Knowing that Jesus is the True Prophet, would it correct in saying that these Words are true?

'SUPREMACY OF GOD'. > According to the gospels, JESUS said, "ALL AUTHORITY has been given unto ME in heaven and on earth" - (Matthew 28:18) --- "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS will by no means pass away." - (Matt.24:35) --- "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. No one comes to the FATHER except through ME. - ( John14:6 )

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[battig1370]

Hello muhammad, --- if muhammad is not around, can a muslim person answer this question.

Are these words true? > According to the gospels, JESUS said, "ALL AUTHORITY has been given unto ME in heaven and on earth" - (Matthew 28:18) --- "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS will by no means pass away." - (Matt.24:35) --- "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. No one comes to the FATHER except through ME. - ( John14:6 )

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[surenderer]

Hello muhammad, --- if muhammad is not around, can a muslim person answer this question.

Are these words true? > According to the gospels, JESUS said,


--- "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS will by no means pass away." - (Matt.24:35) --- "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. No one comes to the FATHER except through ME. - ( John14:6 )

Peace be with you, Paul

Hello,
Now this is only my opinion but as I see it as a Muslim I dont think Jesus(pbuh) said those things(at least not in the context taken)........remember in Mark 10:17-18 the verse reads:

"As he [Jesus] was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." If you analyze this verse in truth you will see that Jesus, quite simply, is not God. If he was, why then would he say "No one is good but God alone"? Jesus did not want to be called "good" because he was not God. That title, as Jesus admits, belongs to none but God.


also in Luke 18 :19

19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.



So these verses seem to deny divinity of Jesus(pbuh) which is why Islam says the Koran was created in the 1st place.........because of the confusion created by translations in the Bible



peace to you

 

[battig1370]

"The WORDS that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works" - (John 14:10)

surenderer: > "as a Muslim I dont think Jesus(pbuh) said those things(at least not in the context taken)........remember in Mark 10:17-18 the verse reads:"

"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God" Jesus said to the rich man, " One thing you lack: Go your way, sell what ever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." - (Mark 10:14-21 and Luke 18:16-22)

As a Muslim do you believe that these words are true? ---> Jesus said, "come to Me, --- for of such is the kingdom of God, --- come, take up the cross and follow Me."

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[Tiassa]

You would think that if they meant well, that they would be so embarrassed over the murderous behavior of their co-religionists that they would have more shame than to attempt to spread a Religion that has so badly misfired.

Sounds like a religion to me.

Accordingly, give Muslims time and keep tempting them with that Western luxury. Soon enough, their society will evolve similarly to Chrisitan society, and apostasy will supplant faith in the quest for the almighty dinar.

We in the West broke Communism. We broke the Japanese. Certainly, if it comes to it, we will break Islam, as well, for better or worse.

Breaking things is what we do well. After all, there's money to be made fixing them.

Here's a nightmarish picture: fifty years hence, wandering through Achmed's World of Books in downtown Riyadh--stop by the self-help section.

If Muslims choose to go down fighting instead of adopt the Western vision of hope, well, it's hard to blame them. Sanity only seems sane according to indoctrination. By any other measure, Muslims are better left to figure it out on their own.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

We in the West broke Communism. We broke the Japanese.
we will break Islam, as well, for better or worse.

wishful, hopeful thinking, history may prove you right?

If Muslims choose to go down fighting
instead of adopt the Western vision of hope, well, it's hard to blame them.

Western Civ has many pluses; but drugs, gangs, welfare, etc..., are not what I would call "hope"

Sanity only seems sane according to indoctrination. By any other measure, Muslims are better left to figure it out on their own.

agreed, it will be marvelous to see muslims come out of their "Dark Ages", but they may no longer be "muslims" by then

 

[surenderer]

"The WORDS that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works" - (John 14:10)

surenderer: > "as a Muslim I dont think Jesus(pbuh) said those things(at least not in the context taken)........remember in Mark 10:17-18 the verse reads:"

"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God" Jesus said to the rich man, " One thing you lack: Go your way, sell what ever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." - (Mark 10:14-21 and Luke 18:16-22)

As a Muslim do you believe that these words are true? ---> Jesus said, "come to Me, --- for of such is the kingdom of God, --- come, take up the cross and follow Me."

Peace be with you, Paul

Yes I do believe this.....as I have said before there is nothing wrong with following Jesus(pbuh) because thats what Prophets were sent here for(to be an example) but the problem is when people start to give divinity to anything other than the Creator....notice verse 18 of the same Chapter of Mark you quote:


18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.


peace to you

 

[Thersites]

I do know that the best leaders were 'The Rightly-Guided Caliphs' (Al-Khulafa-ur Rashidun in Arabic). They are the first four Caliphs: Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman and Ali.....

If they were so wonderful why were three of them killed in rebellion or civil war?

 

[surenderer]

If they were so wonderful why were three of them killed in rebellion or civil war?

Why was Martin Luther King? ......because when you do the right thing you make enemies especially in those days when they were continueing(sp) something new and foreign to a hostile enviroment