The Qur'an
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
How odd. His diction is just fine over here:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2354092&postcount=48
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2354092&postcount=48
maybe you two can explain WHY the Qur'an isn't taught in University as a core subject?
Go for it, I want to hear your answer.
As for now, well, for me, I would think that after one thousands years (plus more centuries)... well you know, with all the people who have read it, someone would think it was AT the very least for a first year course at University. I mean we're talking GOD. Fracking God here!
But, for some very inexplicable and oh so very odd reason the Qur'an has been shuffled over next to Ron Hubbard on the shelf of superstitious beliefs and mythology.
VERY ODD TO ME.
I mean, how could GOD be stuffed over next to Ron Hubbard? It's almost as it... as if.... as if this Qu'ran wasn't written by a God at all? :shrug: Oh my. Oh my, my world is collapsing.... :bawl: I see it now, "The" Qur'an is actually just another story book.
islam for centuries has actively discouraged the translation of the quran into other languages, even today a sizable portion of the islamic authorities believe that the only way anyone can read the true quran is if they read it in arabic. Some even see non Arabic translations of the quran to border on blasphemy. Rather similar to how the catholic church tried to keep the Gospels locked up in a near dead language "Latin", they put people to death for trying to translate it.
So it is not surprising that there is a lack of quran studies in universities. No doubt the various islamic clerical authorities around the world would like to keep it that way. The official interpretation of the quran must be controlled. Letting "outsiders" scrutinise it and come to conclusions is a very dangerous thing. for islam.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Hahahahaaa... :roflmao:
Been a long time since I've been here. But this just made me laugh:
To all the folks who are going along with it I am surprised because many of you are Atheists who claim to be very "reasonable".
Michael do you even know how to write an argument? [That is if you really want serious discussion]
Secondly, are any of your questions without assumption? Perhaps you can try addressing the assumptions before you try to get an "answer", that is if you were looking for one in the first place, or were simply trying to create a laughable thread which is going to be lost in this forum like the rest of them.
Your question about the universities is just as laughable if you only thought about the purpose of universities now days.
Adstar- Quran is being kept from being translated? Hmm... you mind giving us some proof because as far as I remember discussing issues with you a long time ago, all you know are statements.
Finally Michael, if you are done with rhetorical questions, why don't you just pose some thoughtful questions?
Peace be unto you
To all the folks who are going along with it I am surprised because many of you are Atheists who claim to be very "reasonable".
Michael do you even know how to write an argument? [That is if you really want serious discussion]
Secondly, are any of your questions without assumption? Perhaps you can try addressing the assumptions before you try to get an "answer", that is if you were looking for one in the first place, or were simply trying to create a laughable thread which is going to be lost in this forum like the rest of them.
Your question about the universities is just as laughable if you only thought about the purpose of universities now days.
Adstar- Quran is being kept from being translated? Hmm... you mind giving us some proof because as far as I remember discussing issues with you a long time ago, all you know are statements.
Finally Michael, if you are done with rhetorical questions, why don't you just pose some thoughtful questions?
Peace be unto you
Look at the bolded words of your quote. It clearly suggests that the Quran is purposefully being kept from being translated. On top you try to make a comparison with Catholics who would "put people to death for trying to translate it". No reason to confuse readers if you didn't mean to compare the Quran in a similar manner.
But its good to know you didn't mean this, your message was just "lost in translation"
I wonder why religious folk believe that scripture should be understood in the language it is revealed in.Anyways...
Peace be unto you
Once again that Bolded statement is not stating the the quran:
Once again you’re a Liar. I know the quran has been translated. I can quote you it's evil verses in English. If it had been kept from translation then there would not be a English Quran would there.
You said that i had said that the Quran had been kept from being translated. I DID NOT SAY THAT.
I said discouraged learn to read English before you bring forth lying accusations against people.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Once again you’re a Liar. I know the quran has been translated. I can quote you it's evil verses in English. If it had been kept from translation then there would not be a English Quran would there.
You said that i had said that the Quran had been kept from being translated. I DID NOT SAY THAT.
I said discouraged learn to read English before you bring forth lying accusations against people.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Wow Adstar-
I don't think you know what "discourage" means. And the fact is that you claim "Islam" discourages! First of all can you quote me in Islamic literature, namely the Quran and Hadith, which "discourages" the translation of its teachings?
(Or should I just shout "Liar", as it seems you love to do just that)
Secondly:
The word "discourage" basically broken down into simpler words (i.e definition) is to oppose or prevent something.
I never said that you stated Quran was NOT translated. I said that you said that the Quran was being kept from being translated. The word "kept" doesn't only apply to already translated material but can also apply to on-going translations. Because if you know sentence structure I said "is being" which emphasizes the on-going translation. I think you need more English understanding than I, even though English is my second language and I profess not to be an expert in it.
Also I would love to hear the evil verses you wanted to quote but I would rather keep this on topic, you might as well just open a new thread if you feel that those "evil" verses have not been responded to, although I believe there is a high chance that someone told you the reason behind the verses but you were just deaf at the time of the response. And also an honest investigation by you would also prevent any reason for such a thread, but I can't imagine any honest investigation by most people on this board (including myself )
Peace be unto you
I don't think you know what "discourage" means. And the fact is that you claim "Islam" discourages! First of all can you quote me in Islamic literature, namely the Quran and Hadith, which "discourages" the translation of its teachings?
(Or should I just shout "Liar", as it seems you love to do just that)
Secondly:
The word "discourage" basically broken down into simpler words (i.e definition) is to oppose or prevent something.
I never said that you stated Quran was NOT translated. I said that you said that the Quran was being kept from being translated. The word "kept" doesn't only apply to already translated material but can also apply to on-going translations. Because if you know sentence structure I said "is being" which emphasizes the on-going translation. I think you need more English understanding than I, even though English is my second language and I profess not to be an expert in it.
Also I would love to hear the evil verses you wanted to quote but I would rather keep this on topic, you might as well just open a new thread if you feel that those "evil" verses have not been responded to, although I believe there is a high chance that someone told you the reason behind the verses but you were just deaf at the time of the response. And also an honest investigation by you would also prevent any reason for such a thread, but I can't imagine any honest investigation by most people on this board (including myself
)Peace be unto you
If you refuse to acknowledge the difference between the two words discourage and prevent then what's the point of entering into a discussion with you?
If i discouraged someone from buying a car i would talk to them and bring forth arguments against purchasing that car.
If i prevented a person from buying a car i would lock them in a house and remove the phone and their bank card. I would physically stop them from doing it.
If i discouraged a person from buying a car, they might still decide to buy it and have it.
If i prevented a person from buying a car they would never buy it.
I perceive that the only reason your persisting with this moronic line of rejecting the bleeding obvious is because your pride will not allow you to admit to a mistake when in a discussion with a Christian. Thanks be to The God of Abraham that you have demonstrated your true self here to one and all.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I have never heard of anyone discouraging translation of the Quran. In my own house, I have an English Qur'an and an Urdu one.
What is "discouraged" is omitting the original text and the implication that the translation is a perfect one. After reading the original text, I can say with justification that it is right and proper to insist on learning the language of the scriptures before attempting to explain it to others.
It avoids all the problems that translations of the original Bible, with loss of the original text, have led to.
What is "discouraged" is omitting the original text and the implication that the translation is a perfect one. After reading the original text, I can say with justification that it is right and proper to insist on learning the language of the scriptures before attempting to explain it to others.
It avoids all the problems that translations of the original Bible, with loss of the original text, have led to.
Hello 786,
Do you think that the Qur'an is Perfect?
What about the Book of Mormon? Do you think it could be Perfect?
That aside, don't you find it just shocking that people can read the words of a GOD... a GOD! The creator!!! The Creator of ALL, of everything, everything in the existence. HELL, existence its very self!!! Human's can read these words of GOD - THE God. The God's very thoughts, if such a thing is possible (which of course isn't but anyway) and AFTER reading these words of God, think to themselves, you know Barney, that was pretty much din0-crap. I mean, it seems like God is a small minded 6th century camel herder. .... I know, I know, it's just shocking to me too... I am shocked. SHOCKED!!!
And to top it off, these words right from the Creator of ALL , THE GOD!!! Aren't even taught in Uni??? :jawdrop:
I mean this is the WISDOM of all WISDOM. How can any self respecting University, say Harvard, Oxford or Stanford allow students to get through without giving each and every student the gift of the WISDOM of the CREATOR. KREE AEE TTT OR!!
I don't get it? How is it possible that the best Universities in the World somehow missed this book?
Then get this, the World's greatest Philosophers they all somehow missed it too???? I mean, they cite Plato, Descartes, Kent, Confucius, even Buddha ... but they missed MOHAMMAD. MO HAM ED. How?!?! HOW is it even possible to BE a Philosopher and miss out on the WORDS of GAWD!!!!!
I don't get it.... I just don't get it.....
WHY??? WHY???? WWWHHHYYYYYEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
:runaway:
Anyway, I'm curious, as to your answers,
Michael
Do you think that the Qur'an is Perfect?
What about the Book of Mormon? Do you think it could be Perfect?
That aside, don't you find it just shocking that people can read the words of a GOD... a GOD! The creator!!! The Creator of ALL, of everything, everything in the existence. HELL, existence its very self!!! Human's can read these words of GOD - THE God. The God's very thoughts, if such a thing is possible (which of course isn't but anyway) and AFTER reading these words of God, think to themselves, you know Barney, that was pretty much din0-crap. I mean, it seems like God is a small minded 6th century camel herder. .... I know, I know, it's just shocking to me too... I am shocked. SHOCKED!!!
And to top it off, these words right from the Creator of ALL , THE GOD!!! Aren't even taught in Uni??? :jawdrop:
I mean this is the WISDOM of all WISDOM. How can any self respecting University, say Harvard, Oxford or Stanford allow students to get through without giving each and every student the gift of the WISDOM of the CREATOR. KREE AEE TTT OR!!
I don't get it? How is it possible that the best Universities in the World somehow missed this book?
Then get this, the World's greatest Philosophers they all somehow missed it too???? I mean, they cite Plato, Descartes, Kent, Confucius, even Buddha ... but they missed MOHAMMAD. MO HAM ED. How?!?! HOW is it even possible to BE a Philosopher and miss out on the WORDS of GAWD!!!!!
I don't get it.... I just don't get it.....
WHY??? WHY???? WWWHHHYYYYYEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
:runaway:
Anyway, I'm curious, as to your answers,
Michael
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:roflmao:
Like what SAM? What are the problems that the Christians have gained that the Muslims didn't?
I'll tell you what. Nothing. Nothing at all. This idea the a book is Perfect and therefor complete and this is somehow better is actually 180 degrees away from the truth. The Bible having been translated and mishmashed is actually a superior product. Because it can be reworked. But to understand that you'd have to pull your head out. Xenu's revelation is better today because people rework it for the age.
Speaking of which I'm still waiting on that enlightenment you never posted. OHHH OHHHH OOOOOHHHH yeah, the Qur'an isn't about enlightening Humanity it's all about Mohammad is THE last prophet. HAAAAA!!!
HAhahahahhaaaa.... that is sum funny poop
THE last profit ...too much... really just too much.
haaa and people wonder why Islamic countries are so screwed up. Exactly the same thing happened in Europe under the Catholics. But, people finally pulled their heads out.
The most obvious one:
Christians have to reject the Bible to get in step wth the world, Muslims have to accept what the Quran says to do so. The adoption of the Bible as it was translated led to the Dark Ages for the Roman Empire, the adoption of Islam to the Golden Age. Even today, one can pinpoint all the problems in the Islamic world to neglect of basic principles in the Quran
(Insert Title Here)
This is actually a very important point that many people overlook.
It is my understanding that part of the Qur'an's popular appeal is its aesthetic presentation. The poetry of the revelation, in its early recitations, was powerful enough to convert people. This disappears when the text is translated into, say, English.
Unfortunately, the nearest comparison I can think of offhand (A) works in reverse, and (B) has disappeared from the stack of books in the corner where it was last week. I likely saw it, though, "I actually need that," and moved it somewhere, and then forgot where I put it. However, the Stephen Mitchell translation of Rilke's Letters To A Young Poet is perhaps more faithful to the original German than, say, the Burnham translation (which is the bound copy I can't find), but the latter is far and away more communicative in the poetic context. And as Rilke was, after all, a poet, I prefer that.
Ah, I found a sample I posted six years ago. Let's see how they stack up. From the Sixth Letter to Kappus:
Perhaps it seems a small difference, but over the course of the ten letters, those small differences add up. Still, that difference has nothing on the Qur'an. Comparatively, the difference between the Qur'an in Arabic and English is a vast ocean of poetry, context, and comprehension. Or, such is my understanding over the years.
_____________________
Notes:
Rilke, Ranier M. Letters to a Young Poet. 1913. Stephen Mitchell, trans. 1999. SF-Goth.com. http://www.sfgoth.com/~immanis/rilke/letter1.html
—————. Joan M. Burnham, trans. San Rafael: New World Library, 1992.
Michael said:
This is actually a very important point that many people overlook.
It is my understanding that part of the Qur'an's popular appeal is its aesthetic presentation. The poetry of the revelation, in its early recitations, was powerful enough to convert people. This disappears when the text is translated into, say, English.
Unfortunately, the nearest comparison I can think of offhand (A) works in reverse, and (B) has disappeared from the stack of books in the corner where it was last week. I likely saw it, though, "I actually need that," and moved it somewhere, and then forgot where I put it. However, the Stephen Mitchell translation of Rilke's Letters To A Young Poet is perhaps more faithful to the original German than, say, the Burnham translation (which is the bound copy I can't find), but the latter is far and away more communicative in the poetic context. And as Rilke was, after all, a poet, I prefer that.
Ah, I found a sample I posted six years ago. Let's see how they stack up. From the Sixth Letter to Kappus:
Burnham translation:
Think, dear friend, reflect on that world that you carry within yourself. And name this thinking what you wish. It might be recollections of your childhood or yearning for your own future. Just be sure that you observe carefully what wells up within you and place that above everything that you notice around you. Your innermost happening is worth all your love.
Mitchell translation:
Think, dear Sir, of the world that you carry inside you, and call this thinking whatever you want to: a remembering of your own childhood or a yearning toward a future of your own - only be attentive to what is arising within you, and place that above everything you perceive around you. What is happening on your innermost self is worthy of your entire love ....
Think, dear friend, reflect on that world that you carry within yourself. And name this thinking what you wish. It might be recollections of your childhood or yearning for your own future. Just be sure that you observe carefully what wells up within you and place that above everything that you notice around you. Your innermost happening is worth all your love.
• • •
Mitchell translation:
Think, dear Sir, of the world that you carry inside you, and call this thinking whatever you want to: a remembering of your own childhood or a yearning toward a future of your own - only be attentive to what is arising within you, and place that above everything you perceive around you. What is happening on your innermost self is worthy of your entire love ....
Perhaps it seems a small difference, but over the course of the ten letters, those small differences add up. Still, that difference has nothing on the Qur'an. Comparatively, the difference between the Qur'an in Arabic and English is a vast ocean of poetry, context, and comprehension. Or, such is my understanding over the years.
_____________________
Notes:
Rilke, Ranier M. Letters to a Young Poet. 1913. Stephen Mitchell, trans. 1999. SF-Goth.com. http://www.sfgoth.com/~immanis/rilke/letter1.html
—————. Joan M. Burnham, trans. San Rafael: New World Library, 1992.