The Qur'an

[S.A.M.]

You have no data for survival over that time, let alone success.

Was the beef-eating "Hindu" of a few hundred years ago practicing the same religion as the Holy Bovine Hindu of the recent past and present? Has that older Hinduism been "successful"?

But perhaps a study of the smaller scale patterns will inform the understanding of the larger ones.

The thing about Hinduism is that the beef eating Hindu is as much a part of the larger process as the sacred cow Hindu. Such mundanities do not impede the larger broad review of Vedanta or Advaita or Dvaita philosophies. Its not a replacement culture, so the arrival of new ideas does not impede the continuation of older ones. All the "splits" still fall well within the purview of existing philosophical schools and if they don't [like Jainism or Buddhism], they can be accomodated. Jainism itself has flourished well and is followed avidly where Buddhism has failed. The irony of a Gautama identifyng himself as an Aryan is not lost in a society where Buddhism is increasingly seen as a religion of the lower classes. Compare that with Jainism and Sikhism which are not seen as a refugee religion, even where the dynamics are complex enough so that a Hindu mother can have a Sikh son without any problems of faith.

@ Michael:

You may be interested in this - an Islamic version of the life of the Buddha
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/ns22-02.htm

 

[Michael]

Could you refresh my memory? When did I do this? I find a lot to complain about in my own culture. And I do it in the appropriate threads.

Also I spent $200 fricking dollars on the "art of living" so the knowledge of that bamboozlement is absolutely firsthand.

Meanwhile, like I said, Buddha is mostly irrelevant in India, except under circumstances which the Buddha would most assuredly view skeptically. This is not a criticism, this is an observation.

IMO [not quite humble], if a religious system fails in India, it has no future, if we cannot stomach it, no one else can.

You only have to look around to see what does survive to understand how these things work.

Meanwhile, there are Chinese Muslims, and there will be more as communism gets thrown off.



As for Europeans "ignoring" the Qur'an, do educate yourself

The Masons and the Moors

You may have been bamboozled. I think it's pretty common. I was looking through a "New Age" magazine while waiting for the optometrist the other day and it was hilarious all the bullshit they were selling/bamboozling to people. Everything from "Buddhist" meditative organic apples :bugeye: (how are these different to apple?) to a seminar with the Great "John Edwards". It's sad to see people ripped off like this, but, meh.... people can't help but seem to be drawn towards this stuff like moths to a flame.


That aside, whereas psychic readings is bullshit, meditation isn't all about bullshit. Maybe some of it is? There are a number of books written by neuroscientists studying meditation and how thinking affect various areas of the brain. Neuroscientists are beginning to show how the Buddhist/Indian meditation as well as reflecting with empathy work to (1) rewire the brain/neuroplasticity (2) up regulate neuron production and integration/neurogenesis in the limbic system.

For example, thinking deeply about high level math problems increases the survival of those neurons that are produced. Buddhist/Indian meditation seems to work on these same systems with the same effect. These effects become apparent over long periods of time. They are not easy to study or to replicate in mouse models. So, the work is new but the technology is really rapidly improving.

And the only take away message I think that should be taught to Uni students is evidence of the mind-body interaction.



On the other side of the coin, one wonders that, if thinking in one way can lead to happiness and a sense of well being, can thinking in another lead to aggression and a sense of foreboding? Think about the extreme examples of children who have been kidnapped and held in a house for 20 years. Told every day they are sinners or they are in danger or other such bullshit. We call it "traumatized" but there is a real neurological effect on their brain. Now think about some of the key tenants of monotheisms. Perhaps some people, people are especially sensitive to certain memes (like eternity roasting in Hellfire for example) who also have a hard time dealing with the fact that they are going to die one day - that a lifetime of pounding this into their heads 5 time daily could lead to an aggressive wired brain? Purely from a physiological perspective I'd imagine this occur more commonly in males too.


It's just a hypothesis.



Notice: I wrote Chinese and the Qur'an. Not Chinese and their trade with Muslims. Not Chinese and Muslims settling in China. I want to know how the the philosophy in the Qur'an had an effect on the Chinese Civilization.

There is a worthwhile philosophy in the Qur'an isn't there SAM? Perhaps you could give us an example?


I wonder, has Confucianism had a HUGE effect on what is Islam? I mean, look at all the trade and all the Chinese traders of porcelain with Arabs. How about the doctrines of Communism - they have also had (and are having) a HUGE impact on what is Islam. In both China and the ex Soviet republics. And to top the list. Western thought is proving to have the largest and strongest influence on what is "Islam".



Now, all of this is really OP is predicated on the hypothesis that the Qur'an is FROM GOD. GOD ... GOD. You know, creator of reality yadda yadda yadda. One would think that GOD, GOD, when GOD says something not only is it self evidently brilliant it's fracking important. So important as to have a HUGE effect on the world. That's just not the case with the Qur'an. It certainly did not have a huge effect on Chinese philosophy. Trade with Muslims had a huge effect on Chinese history but Qur'anic philosophy did not.

Just compare this with Indians. Indians had a lesser effect compared with Arabs in regards to commerce with the Chinese civilization and yet they had a MASSIVE philosophical impact. MASSIVE.

If you were to step back and objectively ask yourself: Why? You'd think, well, probably the Indian philosophy was superior. But, how can anything ANYTHING man could think up compare in the tiniest way to what God would think up? Not just that, but this is something that the God-head set out to tell tiny humans - it is the "Perfect" information to humanity.

Well, the logical answer is it isn't. Which is because there really aren't any Gods that live in the sky. The Qur'an was made up by men - men not interested in philosophy, but interested in maintaining control and maintaining their power over the multicultural Persian and Byzantine empires they conquered. Wiping out multiculturealism replace it "Islam". Tax the aboriginals and make them pay for their new rulers. THAT'S the philosophy of the Qur'an SAM.


Here is some Qur'anic Philosophy:
Tax the conquered to maintain the army.
Keep the conquered out of the Army.

Real deep there SAM. No wonder no one thought much of the Qur'an. THEY'VE ALL been doing THAT from day dot!


00110101001001001110010101 There is only One Alien and his name is Xenu.
beep beep/pbuh/beep beep
01010010010010010010111011 Ron Hubbard is His Last Prophet
beep beep/pbuh/beep beep

 

[Michael]

They were Christian bigots :shrug:

Could you give me an example of Qur'anic Philosophy that the European would have otherwise wanted to learn but due to their Christian meme did not?


Let me guess:
00110101001001001110010101 There is only One God ... oh wait they already had that one
beep beep/pbuh/beep beep
01010010010010010010111011 Mohammad is His Last Prophet... ooo but that one is stupid
beep beep/pbuh/beep beep

 

[Michael]

@ Michael:

You may be interested in this - an Islamic version of the life of the Buddha
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/ns22-02.htm

I did not know that Buddha was a Catholic Saint. That may make a interesting thread topic in the history section.


I can not help but think that starting the parables with:

In the name of Allah the merciful the clement! This is an abridgment from the book of one of the distinguished philosophers of India. It is a book of eloquent allusions, pleasing instructions, and beautiful meanings [or ideas]; may Allah cause us to profit thereby. Amen!

does such intellectual harm to a society.

Not just these parables, but the whole of society. Imagine how it must skew the perspective of a person who starts each treaty thinking this: In the Name of Xenu The Intergalactic Warlord. May His interdimensional theta bands raise me to the awareness level of zeta U6X-15 so that I may appreciate these Lord Xenu inspired parables.


Can you see how a daily dose of this could, over centuries, screw up society? Always worrying about Xenu. Thinking about what Xenu likes, doesn't like, thinks is OK, doesn't think is OK. Worrying about your eternal theta-band.... not good SAM, definitely not good.

 

[786]

Could you give me an example of Qur'anic Philosophy that the European would have otherwise wanted to learn but due to their Christian meme did not?

There is no way to say that they refused things just because they were Chritians, but that can be a possibility because Europeans were threatened by the expanding Islamic Empire. If a foreign threat exits a society closes itself to protect their identity. An example of this is what happened to the Japanese in America.

I'm not sure if Europeans 'wanted' to learn it- because they were basically white supremacists-

From Muhammad's Last Sermon:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

I'm not sure if they wanted to accept that their race was not so great, after all Europeans are known to think of themselves as some ultimate race- and they were white supremacists so I'm not sure how they would have swallowed that they were not superior to the blacks.

Peace be unto you

 

[John99]

all men and women are created equal.

 

[786]

all men and women are created equal.

I know its there.... but the idea was basically lost by the Europeans for so many centuries I'm sure they didn't even realize it was there in the Bible.... Maybe they came to understand it as 'all white men and women are created equal'

Peace be unto you

 

[John99]

maybe...but no, it doesnt say that.

the u.s is the only country outside of africa to make an african president.

 

[786]

maybe...but no, it doesnt say that.

the u.s is the only country outside of africa to make an african president.

Yeah that in itself is interesting to think about. Aren't Jamaicans and Zimbabweans black- they're out side of Africa - I know what you mean

Peace be unto you

 

[iceaura]

Its not a replacement culture, so the arrival of new ideas does not impede the continuation of older ones.

Holy Cow Hinduism replaced Ceremonial Beef Dinner Hinduism - with other changes, a creation of a religion that may or may not be labeled the "same".

And that happened in a few hundred years - not a few thousand.

Jainism itself has flourished well and is followed avidly where Buddhism has failed.

Or Jainism has failed, mired in cult-ridden India while Buddhism has succeeded - spreading to far continents and far peoples, its highest philosophies and best practices known and respected in every major civilization on earth, to the point that they obscure its more ordinary existence and historical infelicities.

You not approving of the adaptations of this or that religion hardly qualifies as a failure criterion.

I'm not sure if Europeans 'wanted' to learn it- because they were basically white supremacists-

No. That came later.

From Muhammad's Last Sermon:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

Although from the strongman leader of a slaveholding and male supremicist culture, those are very nice words - and similarly nice words are known from Western cultural leaders.

 

[Michael]

There is no way to say that they refused things just because they were Chritians, but that can be a possibility because Europeans were threatened by the expanding Islamic Empire. If a foreign threat exits a society closes itself to protect their identity. An example of this is what happened to the Japanese in America.

I'm not sure if Europeans 'wanted' to learn it- because they were basically white supremacists-

From Muhammad's Last Sermon:



I'm not sure if they wanted to accept that their race was not so great, after all Europeans are known to think of themselves as some ultimate race- and they were white supremacists so I'm not sure how they would have swallowed that they were not superior to the blacks.

Peace be unto you

At that time Europeans didn't see themselves as a "White" race but as individual races. Germans were a race. Italians were a race. Poles were a race. Russians were a race.

Which chapter in the Qur'an does this come from:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

It's not bad. I mean, at least God was giving it a go (I'm assuming this was Mohammad telling people something God had told him? Is this correct? It's really GOD here, not Mohammad?). Too bad GOD hadn't said something like this: Race is an illusion and does not exist. as well as Adam and Eve are a parable they didn't exist either - the earth is actually very very old and has supported the life or countless creatures before humans were here.

It's also too bad God didn't say something like: Men and Women are equal. As well as God could have said: Slavery is evil and no one should own a Slave. Oh and lastly: All religions are equally as valid as one another. Oooo and God would have my admiration if It would have also told Mohammad to tell people this: NEVER EVER KILL another HUMAN. EVER. Of course knowing, as God does, that people would continue to kill each other - but, raising the bar is truly a sign of insight into the human condition. I guess God's never been all the insightful? (SEE: Adam and Eve).

 

[786]

No. That came later.

You happen to have years handy? I'm interested in knowing when did they start to think of themselves as like the ultimate race- I knew we had talked about this subject in history class in high school but don't remember a timeline for this.

Peace be unto you

 

[Michael]

786,

Three things:
1) You seem to be missing an obvious solution as to why the Qur'an wasn't valued intellectually (even though Arab philosophers treates were).
2) What chapter in the Qur'an did the verse come from?
3) Chinese think they are superior, Persians think they are, Germans think they are. I know a dutch guy who said: Of course we're the best, look at how tall we are! I knew a Mexican exchange student who said: Mexican are the Best! Mexico is much better than America. I can't say the number of Japanese who think they are the best. Everyone thinks like this. I know Jews who think they are Gods chosen people - does that count?

Europeans thought they were different races up until around the 1950s. But even in the 1950s it was still pretty common to think Germans were a different race than French. The babyboomers moved past this in the USA. Not sure about Europe but probably. Most now talk in terms of culture. Russians are great because mother russia blah blah blah... or We Germans do things like this.... French food and wine .... Italian food and wine.... etc..



I see a close parallel between the ideas of racism and monotheism.

 

[786]

At that time Europeans didn't see themselves as a "White" race but as individual races. Germans were a race. Italians were a race. Poles were a race. Russians were a race.

Each better than the other?

Which chapter in the Qur'an does this come from:

Did you not read my post? It is not from the Quran, although the same message can be derived- although I don't think you want to.

It's not bad. I mean, at least God was giving it a go (I'm assuming this was Mohammad telling people something God had told him? Is this correct? It's really GOD here, not Mohammad?).

No, this is Muhammad... but this is the teaching of God.

Too bad GOD hadn't said something like this: Race is an illusion and does not exist.

From the Quran:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, And made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (Not that ye despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)."

Its good enough for me... Actually I can get the same message from this verse as the sermon I posted before...

as well as Adam and Eve are a parable they didn't exist either - the earth is actually very very old and has supported the life or countless creatures before humans were here.

And why does it matter if Adam and Eve are parable or not? Or do you want the Quran to say everything you want to say? Quran says nothing about the age of Earth being young, so at least think before you speak.

It's also too bad God didn't say something like: Men and Women are equal.

Actually that is what I take from the Quran. It talks of Men and Women as equal in all respects, except that men have been given the leadership role- but they can work on that together- If you think the President of a company is not equal as a human to the employee then there is something wrong with you. Division of responsibilities is necessary. If the Quran had stated that men and women are absolutely equal, I would recognize that as a lack of understanding of sociology.

As well as God could have said: Slavery is evil and no one should own a Slave.

Instead of destroying the economic structure Islam was strategic in its approach- on a second thought all slaves must be treated well, actually if you treat a slave the Islamic way they are more like servants than slaves-

Many times the 'payment' for a sin you commit is to free a slave. Regardless of free or slave, everyone is equal- oppressing them would lead you to hell.

“Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity.” (Quran 90:12-16)

“Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are of kin, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess [i.e slaves]: for Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious.”(Quran 4:36)

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing." (Quran 2:177)

"And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire Chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life." (Quran 24:33)

"Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, and for him who findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three day fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths..." (Quran 5:89)

"And your slaves ! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them what you yourself wear. And if they commit a mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented!"

"The slave has his food and clothing. Do not burden a slave with work which he is incapable of doing." (Bukhari)

"Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offense of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free."

“If anyone kills a slave, we shall kill him. If anyone maims a slave, we shall maim him as well. If anyone castrates his slave, we shall castrate him.”(Muslim, Abu Dawood)

Oh and lastly: All religions are equally as valid as one another.

Quran does state that all nations were given a prophet, it is likely that all the other religions were true ones at some time... For it to claim that they are equally valid, even though the others may have been changed- I don't think that is a great idea. For someone who doesn't believe in one, I'm sure it sounds unifying.

Oooo and God would have my admiration if It would have also told Mohammad to tell people this: NEVER EVER KILL another HUMAN. EVER.

Pacifism doesn't work in my eyes... He'll have your admiration, sure... But being admired by you isn't really a compliment

Of course knowing, as God does, that people would continue to kill each other - but, raising the bar is truly a sign of insight into the human condition. I guess God's never been all the insightful?

Its not so much about killing then it is about protecting. I find this way more insightful then pacifism.

And all you are saying is that he should've said what you believed in, and you're saying that by usings 'oooo'- it shows the intent of your posts. Makes me want to not reply to you- I would rather talk to a person who was at least somewhat serious- but you have a track record of the opposite so I guess I can't expect much-

Peace be unto you :wave:

 

[S.A.M.]

Could you give me an example of Qur'anic Philosophy that the European would have otherwise wanted to learn but due to their Christian meme did not?

Empiricism: the Christians were the last to embrace it and only after prolonged contact with the Muslim world.

Equality: They still find it hard to see all people as equal

The basic principle of liberty: thats something you still don't possess in Christianity, even after all the apostasy, they cannot comprehend that all people should be treated equally and are sovereign.

Inalienable rights of the individual: a purely Islamic concept, where no priest or authority has a "higher power"''

And thats just off the top of my head.

I know its there.... but the idea was basically lost by the Europeans for so many centuries

It wasn't lost, it didn't exist in European society. Note that the rational Greeks or Romans did not consider anyone out of their ethnic group as an equal.

I wrote Chinese and the Qur'an

Are you saying that the Qur'an had nothing to do with the Islamic influence on Chinese history? Would it have been possible without the Qur'an?

Why do you think the Chinese Emperor immediately built a mosque and had the Qur'an inscribed on stone tablets and wood? Why do you suppose there is a great mosque dating back to 742 from the Tang Dynasty with these tablets?

 

[Michael]

Actually that is what I take from the Quran. It talks of Men and Women as equal in all respects, except

.... yadda yadda yadda and that's all folks...

Here this is easy:
Simply same a period and a place in Islamic history within the last 1000 years when women have been legally equal with men.

Muslim
Hey Mo how's your women?
Mohammad
meh... pretty equal ... all 12 of em
*wink wink and high fives*

Instead of destroying the economic structure Islam was strategic in its approach- on a second thought all slaves must be treated well, actually if you treat a slave the Islamic way they are more like servants than slaves-

OMG 786, did you just say that SLAVERY WAS ACCEIPTLE BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD DESTROY THE ECONOMIC STRUCTURE???

REALLY NOW.


Here this is easy:
Simply same a period and a place in Islamic history within the last 1000 years when Slaves haven't been bought and sold on the open market.


Michael


PS: You must find it shocking, just shocking that China was able to, under the leadership of Mao, to ban slavery and raise women status to being legally equal with me. Wow, Communist Manifesto beats out God, whodathunkit.

 

[S.A.M.]

I already told you about the Mamluk dynasty, which was established by slaves who became kings.

Is there a parallel in European history? A slave who became king?

 

[Michael]

Empiricism: the Christians were the last to embrace it and only after prolonged contact with the Muslim world.

Equality: They still find it hard to see all people as equal

The basic principle of liberty: thats something you still don't possess in Christianity, even after all the apostasy, they cannot comprehend that all people should be treated equally and are sovereign.

Inalienable rights of the individual: a purely Islamic concept, where no priest or authority has a "higher power"''

And thats just off the top of my head.



It wasn't lost, it didn't exist in European society. Note that the rational Greeks or Romans did not consider anyone out of their ethnic group as an equal.



Are you saying that the Qur'an had nothing to do with the Islamic influence on Chinese history? Would it have been possible without the Qur'an?

Why do you think the Chinese Emperor immediately built a mosque and had the Qur'an inscribed on stone tablets and wood? Why do you suppose there is a great mosque dating back to 742 from the Tang Dynasty with these tablets?

Empiricism is based on Greek philosophy.
Equality is based on the Greek model of City States and the modern form on Scottish literature. (Slave Trading Muslims - the beckon of Equity with their four wives - pull your head out SAM).

Romans gave Latin the Citizenship. Pull harder SAM.

Compared with Buddhism, Islam had a minuscule effect on Chinese Philosophy which is why out of a couple Billion Chinese there's all of about 15-30 million of them that are Muslim.

Yes, they built Mosques, they traded with Arabs. Funnily, I don't remember any Buddhist Temples being built in Saudi Arabia or Chinese Temples being built in Saudi Arabia. But, maybe there are? Are there? Or is this a case of the Chinese building Mosques to facilitate trade with Arabs and Arabs thumbing their noses at the Chinese? You've brought up a good point SAM - now I'm really curious. Just how much "equity" did the Muslims splash around Mecca?

 

[786]

.... yadda yadda yadda and that's all folks...

Thanks for proving my point

Here this is easy:
Simply same a period and a place in Islamic history within the last 1000 years when women have been legally equal with men.

Of all those years a mother is greater in status than the father.

OMG 786, did you just say that SLAVERY WAS ACCEIPTLE BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD DESTROY THE ECONOMIC STRUCTURE???

You don't like to listen to anything do you..... I fold... I'm not good at poker anyways.

Here this is easy:
Simply same a period and a place in Islamic history within the last 1000 years when Slaves haven't been bought and sold on the open market.

Yes its quite sad.

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

1. Empiricism is not based on Greek philosophy, rationalism is. Study ibn Haytham.

2. Equality for the Greeks was like equality in the US constitution, it excluded women and barbarians

3. What is Latin citizenship for barbarians?

4. Buddhism never took off in the Middle East.