The Qur'an

[Michael]

I already told you about the Mamluk dynasty, which was established by slaves who became kings.

Is there a parallel in European history? A slave who became king?

Slavery was banned when? Where? The Mamluks were slaves not solders? Is that correct SAM? I just want to be sure - maybe you could put up a reference? Oh and they made women legally equal to men too huh? The same legal rights as a man? IS that true as well?


Please post the time and dates when slavery was made illegal in an Islamic country. Because I'm fairly certain it was banned by the Europeans...some as late as the 1960s. BUT, that isn't to say some Indian King didn't make Slavery illegal. Indians are good like that. Of course one wonders - was this an Islamic country or an Hindu one? The Japanese banned slavery early on. There are other ways of controlling people after all. Once they know their place.

But I'm sure Muslims brought democracy and enlightenment to the modern world, founded the UN and there as never been a more peaceful people....

 

[S.A.M.]

You have some la did da view of India. Do you keep forgetting our caste system? I think we embraced equality under the Mughals, especially Akbar.

Even the Buddha made distinctions between the monks and laity and between men and women.

As for the rest, look up the last several times I already posted. Regurgitated arguments don't warrant repeated reminders

 

[Michael]

Thanks for proving my point



Of all those years a mother is greater in status than the father.




You don't like to listen to anything do you..... I fold... I'm not good at poker anyways.



Yes its quite sad.

Peace be unto you

Well the things is 786, your either bullshitting yourself or someone. Because a mother may be loved but then again so are dogs. I asked for legally equal. It just never exited in Islamic countries. Just as Slavery has always been practice by Muslims - well, until the Christians banned it for them.

Open a History book.

 

[786]

Well the things is 786, your either bullshitting yourself or someone. Because a mother may be loved but then again so are dogs. I asked for legally equal. It just never exited in Islamic countries. Just as Slavery has always been practice by Muslims - well, until the Christians banned it for them.

"a mother may be loved" - you don't know what I'm talking about- You're the one bullshitting here-

Can you tell me what is 'legally equal'?

Open a History book.

I wonder if you have one

 

[Michael]

You have some la did da view of India. Do you keep forgetting our caste system? I think we embraced equality under the Mughals, especially Akbar.

Even the Buddha made distinctions between the monks and laity and between men and women.

As for the rest, look up the last several times I already posted. Regurgitated arguments don't warrant repeated reminders

SAM, let me make this very clear and easy for you to understand.

Was SLAVERY made illegal?

Was this Mamluk a SLAVE or a SOLDER?

When India was invaded and a kingdom carved out - do you still consider it an Islamic nation or a Hindu one? Hmmmm I wonder, when the Brits ruled India - was it suddenly Christian?


History shows Muslim women to NEVER been given legal equity to men AND THEY STILL DON'T!

Geesh - pull your head out of la la la land. Muslim women still do not have legal equity with men in Islamic countries. What planet are you living on SAM... pass the gogo juice because it must be good


Europeans banned SLAVERY for the Muslims and within their nations or pressured countries like Turkey to do so - and many Imam's RESENTED this and said it was against Islam. But they were powerless to stop the tide of humanity. And still are to this day. Which is why we have all the problems with fundamentalists as they get dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

 

[S.A.M.]

Muslim women still do not have legal equity with men in Islamic countries

How would you know? Which Muslim country have you lived in?

 

[Michael]

"a mother may be loved" - you don't know what I'm talking about- You're the one bullshitting here-

Can you tell me what is 'legally equal'?



I wonder if you have one

Under the law a man has no more and a woman no less rights than one another. They are considered equal.


An example of legal inequity: Not allowing a woman to drive because she is a woman. BUT allowing a man to drive because he is a man.

 

[Michael]

SAM, let me make this very clear and easy for you to understand.

Was SLAVERY made illegal?

Was this Mamluk a SLAVE or a SOLDER?

When India was invaded and a kingdom carved out - do you still consider it an Islamic nation or a Hindu one? Hmmmm I wonder, when the Brits ruled India - was it suddenly Christian?

 

[S.A.M.]

I see we are back to your circular logic again. Do look back on our previous ad nauseum arguments on the same. You know, the one where slaves could be emirs, administrators, tradesmen, courtiers and soldiers? Where the Sultan stood in line with soldier slaves for his wages?

I know its hard for you with your western thinking to conceive of slaves as being something other than slaves, but do try and stretch your limited abilities to embrace Muslim thought. You will be pleased to discover the fact that slaves, like other humans, could be more than strung up specimens with wires attached to their testicles

Btw, do you believe the west has plagiarised empiricism, equality, individual rights and the principle of liberty from Arabs?

 

[786]

Under the law a man has no more and a woman no less rights than one another. They are considered equal.


An example of legal inequity: Not allowing a woman to drive because she is a woman. BUT allowing a man to drive because he is a man.

Ok, now don't go back on your words- and don't start bullshitting again-

Woman is allowed to wear gold, and silk- because she is a woman.
Man is NOT allowed to wear gold and silk- because he is a man.

Therefore woman have been superior to man for the lifetime of Islamic history.

Wait... Ooooooooo..... right? I don't want to hear anything now.... I'll become like you... DEAF!

Peace be unto you

PS- Whatever you say my next response will be 'yada yada yada'

 

[Michael]

I see we are back to your circular logic again. Do look back on our previous ad nauseum arguments on the same. You know, the one where slaves could be emirs, administrators, tradesmen, courtiers and soldiers? Where the Sultan stood in line with soldier slaves for his wages?

I know its hard for you with your western thinking to conceive of slaves as being something other than slaves, but do try and stretch your limited abilities to embrace Muslim thought. You will be pleased to discover the fact that slaves, like other humans, could be more than strung up specimens with wires attached to their testicles

Btw, do you believe the west has plagiarised empiricism, equality, individual rights and the principle of liberty from Arabs?

SAM, I asked for a time and place when Slavery was made illegal. Does such a time and place exist?


I didn't ask about a person who of the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Islamic Slaves happened to have won the Slave Lottery and got to move up to Solder status. And then as a solder led an army and attack some other people to claim some land of his own. OH I mean for Allah. Not for himself - had to kill those Hindus for Allah.
Nope, I simply asked WHEN WAS SLAVERY MADE ILLEGAL.

 

[Michael]

Ok, now don't go back on your words- and don't start bullshitting again-

Woman is allowed to wear gold, and silk- because she is a woman.
Man is NOT allowed to wear gold and silk- because he is a man.

Therefore woman have been superior to man for the lifetime of Islamic history.

Wait... Ooooooooo..... right? I don't want to hear anything now.... I'll become like you... DEAF!

Peace be unto you

PS- Whatever you say my next response will be 'yada yada yada'

So you equate a women being legally able to wear a skirt, panties and stocking and making it illegal for a man to wear as skirt, panties and stocking as women and men being legally equal?

WHEN HAVE MEN AND WOMEN BEEN LEGALLY EQUAL?


It's really really easy. Why don't you explain to female rights activities in KSA fighting for women to be treated equal about your theory of gold and lacy panties. I'm sure they'll love you for it.

 

[Michael]

OH and SAM you seem quick enough to denigrate your own culture - well now, why don't you try to be objective and list some faults with Islamic culture and the Qur'an. But, you can't do that can you? too manhy 000s and 111s. And THAT my dear madam is why it's the West pulling the Muslim countries into the modern age and not the other way around.

I do think there were clever Arabs. Especially mathmatically as this is something unique. But, living under the yoke of superstition for 1400s has led to the stagnate state things are in. And its really too bad that you can't question the Qur'an. Sure, you and 786 are to the stage of being apologists. And that's good. But, the only way to make good progress is to step back and say, hey, maybe Communism does have some good ideals but it's also got a hell of a lot of faults. Take a lead from the Chinese.

 

[Michael]

and I am also curious, historically, did the Arabs ever build fine temples to the Chinese gods in Mecca - the way the Chinese accommodated the Muslims? What about for the Hindus? Did the Arab Muslims build temples to Hindus Gods in Mecca to accommodate their Indian friends? The way the Indians were so kind to them? Well?

Did they?

 

[S.A.M.]

why it's the West pulling the Muslim countries into the modern age

Yeah, I noticed. Things are so much better since the Europeans drew their lines on the map.

Also you seem to confuse Chinese embracing Islam with accomodating Arabs. Very strange.

 

[786]

So you equate a women being legally able to wear a skirt, panties and stocking and making it illegal for a man to wear as skirt, panties and stocking as women and men being legally equal?

I think I said woman were suprerior...

WHEN HAVE MEN AND WOMEN BEEN LEGALLY EQUAL?

I'll just use your example. Both woman and men are not allowed to wear panties or mini-skirts. Hence equal.

I'm done with your crap

"Surely for men who submit to Allah and for women who submit to Allah, for believing men and for believing women, for devout men and devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable men and charitable women, for fasting men and fasting women, for men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, for men who remember Allah much and for women who remember Allah much, for all of them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward." (Quran 33:35)

Peace be unto you

 

[Vega]

I think I said woman were suprerior...



I'll just use your example. Both woman and men are not allowed to wear panties or mini-skirts. Hence equal.

I'm done with your crap

"Surely for men who submit to Allah and for women who submit to Allah, for believing men and for believing women, for devout men and devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable men and charitable women, for fasting men and fasting women, for men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, for men who remember Allah much and for women who remember Allah much, for all of them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward." (Quran 33:35)

Peace be unto you

You need to stop reading silly old stories and think logically rather than fantasize about things that don't exist! Try growing a brain!!!

 

[iceaura]

Empiricism: the Christians were the last to embrace it and only after prolonged contact with the Muslim world.

The Christians who embraced it had the least contact with the Muslim world - which, if it ever had embraced it, would have had to have changed its conception of the Quran fairly radically.

Equality: They still find it hard to see all people as equal

Inequality on the basis of tribe, religion, or sex, is still inequality. Muslims have no special high ground there- even without considering the Muslim slave trade that has blighted the Mediterranean and environs for so many centuries.

The basic principle of liberty: thats something you still don't possess in Christianity, even after all the apostasy, they cannot comprehend that all people should be treated equally and are sovereign.

The blinkered race horse analogy pops up again - to be informed by a Muslim who found the servant and slave based Arab culture quite comfortable that some "basic principle of liberty" is lacking in the Western world (presuming fundie Christianity was not the reference, and "Christian" now means the people who were labeled "secular humanist" and "atheist" in other contexts) remains unconvincing without some serioous argument.

Inalienable rights of the individual: a purely Islamic concept, where no priest or authority has a "higher power"''

A very common feature of Protestant Christianity, and many Western cultures going back to pre-historical times. And something not at all obvious in Muslim cultures, btw, where the pronouncements of various clerics seem to be freighted with more-than-Oriental significance, and their interpretations of the Quran presented as the word of Allah herself.

And thats just off the top of my head.

Not a good source of information about Western philosophy, history, or culture. The further from western Asia it gets, the screwier its perceptions seem to become.

Is there a parallel in European history? A slave who became king?

There weren't that many slaves in specifically European history. There were no standing armies of them, for example. There were commoners who became kings - which most people would describe as a similar event, considering the status of some commoners - but apparently that doesn't count, eh?

Having slaves become slaveholders is not quite the same thing as equality among people, btw.

Muslim women still do not have legal equity with men in Islamic countries
”
How would you know? Which Muslim country have you lived in?

Me none - I take your word, and that of the other first hand observers, and the more thorough reporters, and the experiences of friends, and my encounters with immigrants, and so forth. You describe a world of female oppression, blatant and accepted.

Btw, do you believe the west has plagiarised empiricism, equality, individual rights and the principle of liberty from Arabs?

No. Some Westerners adopted such concepts from Arab philosophers (and put them into practice, which is more than you can say for the other Arabs), while others thought them up for themselves, adopted them from the Iroquois, derived them from Greek or Christian or Chinese sources, adapted them from old Viking and Saxon political thought, etc.

Also you seem to confuse Chinese embracing Islam with accomodating Arabs. Very strange.

No. He pointed out that Islamic countries do not accommodate other people's religions and cultures nearly as gracefully as the Chinese and Indians accommodated Islam. A pattern noted by all outside observers of Islamic lands.

For which the Quran would be the explanation ready to hand, that book being the unique common feature of Islamic lands.

 

[(Q)]

Woman is allowed to wear gold, and silk- because she is a woman.
Man is NOT allowed to wear gold and silk- because he is a man.

Therefore woman have been superior to man for the lifetime of Islamic history.

:roflmao:

That has got to be one of silliest things I've read from you today. Well done.

 

[S.A.M.]

For which the Quran would be the explanation ready to hand, that book being the unique common feature of Islamic lands.

Except apparently where the Chinese and Indians have embraced it. The fact that Hinduism or Buddhism did not achieve mass appeal in Arab may be explained by the loss of Buddhism in the Pashtuns, who thereafter did not revert back to Buddhism. Or the Indians of whom only new age untouchables embrace Buddhism without giving up OBC status.