The Nonsense of Atheists

[Kennyc]

What personal freedom that could be shared by all is being held back because of a belief in a God?

The right to an abortion.

 

[rjr6]

Good to hear it, was worried there for a moment. I understand the word can mean many things at different levels.

There are times when someone might want to be a slave at least for one night or maybe a few hours. But that kind usually comes with a safe word.

Yes, the bible and other religious texts can offer insight.

But this is my main point.

For those of us who are looking to do good things in the world and want nothing but good things for our families, friends and neighbors and for all in the world for that matter.

We don't need the bible or the koran or any other specific text to teach us this. The theist who wants to do good will find that which encourages such behavior in the bible. The bad guy can find things which are condoned by god to do bad.

There are way more muslims than any other, if they were all bad we would be EFFED. Fortunately, as I believe most people in the world, want good things to happen for others.

As to your last statement. Don't forget the bible also allowed and condoned slavery, genocide and rape.

Like I said, the good, the bad and the ugly.

In what way did the Bible condone slavery anymore than the Bible recognize we are enslaved by sin? The Bible is filled with History as much as the word of God, you seem to mix the two together in a slurry of "the Bible says".

 

[birch]

it's amazing that someone would say that atheists denigrate theists. still, for most of society, it's not even acceptable to be an atheist in society even if the laws say otherwise. it's just something you did not share openly as you would be mowed over.

now these theists want to complain they are being discriminated against. atheists just don't like theism, religionists or religion and i can't blame them for the most part.

religionists have their organizations and freedom of religion and media and they expect non-theists to lay down the red carpet. they don't respect your beliefs, just your right to practice it amongst yourselves.

if you mention it and people disagree, it's not going to be ingratiating and positive. theists have strange expectations.

 

[Kennyc]

What I'm finding hilarious is the Tag Team Theists...

 

[Kennyc]

In what way did the Bible condone slavery anymore than the Bible recognize we are enslaved by sin? The Bible is filled with History as much as the word of God, you seem to mix the two together in a slurry of "the Bible says".

The bible is primarily myth. And yes it's full of slavery, genocide, and vast evil such as human sacrifice, child butchery and bad manners among other things.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I simply want to get on with my life and not have to be bowing down to anybody,

i don't bow down to anybody either..(maybe thats why i make a better boss than an employee..)..man is fallible..there is something to this god, but most information comes through mans mouth, it is susceptible to error as such..

this whole 'i'm a christian or muslim yada yada but not religious' is a big joke.

you just haven't learned what other believers can be, you have said you grew up with religion and hated it, you have learned that those ppl are like that..that does not make ALL believers like that..if you have been to several different church's..what makes each different?

even the people claiming they aren't religious do take a lot of the bible literally including defending creationism indirectly by stating it's equal to evolution and the belief in christ as a son of god or savior etc.

who are they?

it's an oxymoron to claim you are a christian but not religious, then why even be a christian. they are trying to appeal to the mainstream or not be totally ridiculed while still holding to their religion.

um..i choose the label 'christian' as it is the closest label i can find that describes my beliefs..anything else just doesn't do it..
what you assign to that label is not my responsibility.

NMSquirrel and RM,
Great. So you have shed or declined a specific religion.

catholics..
IMO..98% of ppl turned 'off' god, are ex catholics..

My question for you is: what god are you believing in ?

Can you provide any details of this god ?

no

Can you define this god that you believe in ?

any attempt to do so will find someone disagreeing with it. one size does not fit all..

The problem is not that I don't respect your choice to believe, it's that when asked to really define as best as possible this god, the slope gets very slippery.

thats why only you can choose to believe or not. you know your size..

You are left with pure endless speculation or you create a new religion.

egads..not another religion..why can't a person just believe and not have to be in any religion??
its fun to speculate..isn't that how a lot of science came to be?

So define away.

just cause i see him one way, doesn't mean your gonna see him the same way..your awareness of god is subjective to your experiences with god..

You also should realize that you are choosing to place a god where one is not needed.

i don't 'choose' to place god anywhere..he is where i find him..

IOW, you don't have to believe in god for things to be the way they are, you are just choosing to do so.

i choose to..everyday i choose to..every post i choose to..its not a one shot decision.

So then it gets back to what god, define your god.

define oneself..
---

A god is possible but lots of things are possible. I think it's wise to leave that question open as there is no way at least currently to answer it.

good answer..

There is no way to do this without making claims of knowledge.

which gets argued with..what answer would be acceptable for an atheist?
(don't answer 'proof' or 'evidence')

If there was something that proved to you there was a god would you believe ? YES

does that proof have to be tangible/emperical? why can't it be emotional/spiritual/psychological/etc

No one group religious or otherwise has the market cornered on this.

i think this is where the arrogance part comes in..they don't think(or at least act like it) that statement is true.

Smart, educated theists understand this, that is also why they believe in evolution and allow it to fit in with their religious views. Because they get to a point where arguing against the evidence makes them look the fool, and they aren't.

Proverbs 10:14
The wise store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.
Proverbs 13:16
All who are prudent act with knowledge, but fools expose their folly.

they rail about being pigeonholed but that's because they forget they are always defending christianity or christian doctrine on the one hand while on the other, claim no religion. you'll see them flip flop by saying they just 'believe in a god or are theist' and lather say they are christian.

the pigeonhole comment was me not lori..why do you keep getting that confused? why do you keep thinking that ALL christians talking here are talking from the same beliefs?? there is lots of differences between lori's beliefs and mine..that doesn't (always) make either of us wrong..it just means we see different aspects of god..you continually keep trying to 'lump' us all together..like we all believe the same things (plural)..there is a common belief,yes, but that doesn't mean we share the same beliefs for the details..maybe god wants/needs you to have a different opinion.

in your church history did every member act the same way (not at church) or did they each have their own imperfections?

one just needs to look back at the posts regarding evolution or creationism and you'll see that theists were the ones who were trying to somehow legitimize creationism by focusing on criticizing evolution.

lori? me? who else? you cannot claim all theist from only lori or my posts..
maybe your just confusing something lori said with what i said?..or did i agree with lori at any point?(seriously..i haven't been reading lori's posts..i don't know what she is discussing..)

what's even more surreal is that evolution is not even entirely incompatible with an idea that an entity started it all,

i agree with that..

they have been stupidly arguing against it because the main issue is that would be admitting that 'homosapiens' were not always so.

who they?

i can answer this one. it's actually kind of a deceptive question because those who contributed positively did not take their religion literally.

so you admit not every christian is the same!
who is 'their'?

even as an atheist, i would expose them to all the religions in an objective way including the rationalizations of agnostics or atheists. by having more knowledge, they can make a better informed choice or not even choose.

who says that hasn't been done?your not the first and you won't be the last..
have you ever checked MW's posts?

it's like looking into an abyss of mass misinformation and misjudgement that it's hard to know where to start

i think you just answered your last comment...

ive met many people who are theists that say 'i just know' that there is a god and most of them were surprisingly the worst human beings as well as dishonest. believing in a god or being a theist does not mean one is moral or a good person or anything that actually matters!

but being a christian does not automatically qualify one for being bad/immoral/worse/irrelevant..
(see preconceived notions..)

No, not scared at all. What I hate is the thought of theists instilling their irrational beliefs on innocent children and I will continue to do all I can to stop it or fix it.

i live my life the way i think god wants me too..my daughter can judge for herself whether it makes a difference or not..ask her..

Doesn't matter. What I believe is that theists and religion have done significantly more harm than good to humanity and you can't prove otherwise.

i won't deny that theist and religion have done bad things..so has everyone else..

I think the best thing that can be done is full (as full as possible) exposure to all religions and their inconsistencies, unfounded beliefs and conflicts between them.

you gonna explain it all? better have at least a bachelors degree on religious study..

Spiritual perceptions recreated in the lab with a magnetic helmet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN3ggRgY7Ac&feature=player_embedded#!

I wanna try that helmet!..sounds like it could be fun..
did the ppl who put the helmet on report previous religious experiences? did they have something to compare it to or did they describe it like that cause they couldn't find any other way of describing it?

The love of money has made us slaves. You might say we live in slavery now, just the chains are much nicer

wage slave...and not always nicer..

most certainly. We have our own fate, it is not predetermined nor designated to each by a higher authority. A decision to walk along the street, turn left instead of right, and find that if you had turned right, a car would have gone out of control and hit the pavement/sidewalk where you mnight or might not have been walking?. Its called chance.

its not god who is talking about predestination..its man..
god made you with the ability to choose..
if you choose to have a higher calling without god..then so be it..

what's the frigging nonsense is the constant charade that has to be put up with these theists. let's be real.

you will never get it..its not their fault you are mad at god!

society is full of people who are theists or believe in a "god" and they are still crappy human beings. it makes no real difference even though they are thiests. believing in a god doesn't mean squat and doesn't make you better in the least or make any real difference! and if believing in god or being a theist somehow is enough of a qualification for this god, then it's laughable because it's got "lots" of shitty people. lol

its not the belief that is causing those problems..it is what ppl are doing with their beliefs that cause the problems..
we can tell you have had bad experiences with religion, your hate shows through your posts..your hate is turning into bigotry and predjudice..you hate ALL thing christian..no matter if they are good or not..
if you dont get perspective then i will look forward to seeing you on americas most wanted..(be sure to mention your user name so i can point and say 'told you so')
btw..no one ever answered me..what do you call an atheist who hates god?

Originally Posted by rjr6
My belief when atheists trash theism is they in some way need to shirk their responsibility as humans or they have been hurt or traumatized in some way or both. Nothing that has been said in this forum has changed my mind and they don't want to seem to budge.

they need to prove they are right..otherwise they will go to hell..

No, it's made the world a horrible place full of lies, cruelty and death.

funny most christians i talk to say thats what atheist do..

It is holding back science, society and personal freedom.

not anymore...

We don't need the bible or the koran or any other specific text to teach us this.

that doesn't mean we can't find the good that is in them.IOW its not an excuse to NOT read them.
wisdom comes from any direction, the fool is the one who refuses to look in all directions..(look both ways before you cross..)

The theist who wants to do good will find that which encourages such behavior in the bible. The bad guy can find things which are condoned by god to do bad.

bingo..

Stupidity is THE thing that enslaves us. Belief without proof enslaves us. Willing disbelief enslaves us.

lol..you are willingly disbelieveing in god..does that make you a slave?

The right to an abortion

the issue is force..
do we force ppl to agree to either a pro or anti stance on that issue..?

What I'm finding hilarious is the Tag Team Theists...

tag team??
who is doing that here?


sorry for the long post but there was SOO much to respond to..

 

[Lori_7]

But do you agree that the two scenario's are synonymous ?

I mean, do you really believe that our chosen path to be materialist slaves (which is so that we can simply have more crap) and are free to chose not to be materialists is the same as being forced to work in a camp for 20+ hours a day, separated from family, chained and beaten if necessary by another etc etc.

i think what rjr6 said was correct; that the chains are just nicer. in this world, there is no choice about being affected by greed, whether you have no money, or a bunch of it. most of us have to spend a lot of time doing things that if we were really free, and had a choice, we probably wouldn't do. it separates us from our families plenty and it's safe to say we all have to put up with some shit from managers on the job.

 

[Lori_7]

Stupidity is THE thing that enslaves us. Belief without proof enslaves us. Willing disbelief enslaves us.

greed is stupid. i was told in business college that greed is good, and i hear people out here say they believe that all the time, despite the obvious PROOF that it is not.

 

[Kernl Sandrs]

greed is stupid. i was told in business college that greed is good, and i hear people out here say they believe that all the time, despite the obvious PROOF that it is not.

It depends on the standpoint your taking to analyze greed. If you're taking the moral road, then of course it's not right, but as far as economics and business goes, it's an infinitely good thing. It makes the world go around, really. Unfortunately, it's rooted too deeply in us humans. I don't foresee greed going away at all.

 

[wsionynw]

NM, my main Squirrel, you are the first I have heard voice what I believe is a very tenable position. Suppose someone were born to a family where there had never been any discussion of any religion whatsoever. Now suppose that individual were brilliant and had learned the equivalent of a PhD in physics, chemistry, and mathematics.

He objectively assesses the data and concludes that given numerous finely tuned physical constants, the elegance and interconnectedness and majesterium of the universe, from the top down, that Somebody had to make all this. It didn't just pop here by itself. To pretend otherwise is the height of folly and dependence on absolutely nothing. Who and where that Somebody is far beyond our power to deduce, in our present condition.

Could that Somebody be the flying spaghetti monster?

 

[phlogistician]

NM, my main Squirrel, you are the first I have heard voice what I believe is a very tenable position. Suppose someone were born to a family where there had never been any discussion of any religion whatsoever. Now suppose that individual were brilliant and had learned the equivalent of a PhD in physics, chemistry, and mathematics.

He objectively assesses the data and concludes that given numerous finely tuned physical constants, the elegance and interconnectedness and majesterium of the universe, from the top down, that Somebody had to make all this. It didn't just pop here by itself. To pretend otherwise is the height of folly and dependence on absolutely nothing. Who and where that Somebody is far beyond our power to deduce, in our present condition.

See, the simple thing is you are a puddle, and you can't imagine not being one, because you are so constrained by the hole you inhabit.

Take off your blinkers, and _try_ to see things from without of your own perspective.

 

[Red Devil]

Do you really want to compare the perceived slavery of the brainless materialist to the slaves brought over from Africa ?

What a f*cking insult to all those (theists included) who righteously fought for their freedom.

http://www.essortment.com/all/historyofslave_rmpw.htm

"Many auctions ripped mothers away from their children, husbands away from their wives, sisters away from brothers. It is devastating to envision how this must have affected a human being. Scrutiny passed from one to the other, from mother to child, and so on. Three hundred years of slaves being chained together, thrown overboard to drown. Three hundred years of slaves tightly packed together suffocating from the lack of air ventilation. Three hundred years of kidnapping. Three hundred years of children being taken from their mothers. Three hundred years of rape. Three hundred years of fear. Three hundred years of crying. Three hundred years of enslavement. Three hundred years of treating a human as though they weren't human at all"

Excellent answer. I could not understand the poster who compared it with materialistic slavery. Beyond comprehension!!

 

[lightgigantic]

The right to an abortion.

try again
abortion tends to infringe quite dramatically on the personal freedom of the child in the womb

 

[Red Devil]

If an abortion is necessary at all, it has to be before a given 'age' of the foetus. Sadly, normally formed babies are aborted, to me this is murder.

 

[lightgigantic]

I think it's a valid premise, that our ability to have religious experiences was an evolutionary adaptation to the survival-impeding anxiety of knowledge of our eventual death.

I think you miss the glaring inadequacy of the proposal. Even if we were to dish out a (quite generous) quantity of credibility and assume that he has nailed down exactly what a religious experience entails, he hasn't moved an iota in contextualizing the claim of an experience of god to an materialist/atheist agenda. I mean suppose that he induced a perception of cocktail umbrellas by the use of a magnetic helmet in a lab - would that be sufficient grounds for contextualizing the validity of claims of experiencing cocktail umbrellas?

Its an astounding case of atheistic douche baggery trying to borrow from the credibility of science at the expense of philosophy (which, btw, seems all the rage now)

 

[Red Devil]

religion, in my own opinion, is an invention, to explain the unexplained

 

[lightgigantic]

Ah yes, like alcohol, the cause and the cure of all our problems.

Your attempt to dress up slavery as a solely religious induced social phenomena is infantile and yet another clear nonsense of atheism

Economic development has, does and will always render a cheap labour force attractive.

Implementing what is attractive to economic development to the social medium requires the manipulation of social institution.

If a society is not particularly religious, they will simply call upon whatever other social institutions have a pull ( patriotism and race being two other popular alternatives)

 

[Kennyc]

religion, in my own opinion, is an invention, to explain the unexplained

Exactly. Way way back at the beginning of what we are, nature endowed us with the ability to predict -- a survival instinct. For this we needed to understand or create motives for other animals and things (sunrise for example). We invented all kinds of invisible, supernatural forces to meet this need to predict (in order to survive). Or brains are still "wired" that way with a predisposition to need a cause for everything when it simply is not true in many cases -- such as the case for god.

 

[lightgigantic]

people are just not getting it.

i've met many people who are theists that say 'i just know' that there is a god and most of them were surprisingly the worst human beings as well as dishonest. believing in a god or being a theist does not mean one is moral or a good person or anything that actually matters! there are people who are theists sitting on death row or in prison or very immoral by any standard definition or otherwise etc. it doesn't even mean they are sorry or have a conscience either or sincere in any way etc. it doesn't mean anything of any value unless that person decides to make it so!

they are not credible at all or else it speaks really badly for whatever god they are referring to.

what you are not getting is what is required to render a particular person as typical of a disposition - its what is required to distinguish between what constitutes an anecdotal example from a typical one

 

[Bravowon]

i don't bow down to anybody either..(maybe thats why i make a better boss than an employee..)..man is fallible..there is something to this god, but most information comes through mans mouth, it is susceptible to error as such..

The rise in atheism is the result of human philosophy going through puberty, rebelliously shattering the mind forged manacles of history. Let me stand on my own two feet as a have long since learned to walk alone.

London
I wander thro’ each charter’d street,
Near where the charter’d Thames does flow
And mark in every face I meet
Marks of weakness, marks of woe.

In every cry of every Man,
In every Infants cry of fear,
In every voice; in every ban,
The mind-forg’d manacles I hear.

How the Chimney-sweepers cry
Every blackning Church appalls,
And the hapless Soldiers sigh
Runs in blood down Palace walls.

But most thro’ midnight streets I hear
How the youthful Harlots curse
Blasts the new born Infants tear
And blights with plagues the Marriage hearse.
– William Blake, 1794*