The Nonsense of Atheists

Lori_7 said:
i think what rjr6 said was correct; that the chains are just nicer. in this world, there is no choice about being affected by greed, whether you have no money, or a bunch of it. most of us have to spend a lot of time doing things that if we were really free, and had a choice, we probably wouldn't do. it separates us from our families plenty and it's safe to say we all have to put up with some shit from managers on the job.
Click to expand...

The difference Lori is that you have a choice. You can go live in a cave, many people live off the grid, self sufficient. They are choosing to live a less materialistic life.

I understand the metaphor, but saying someone is a slave to their job or career etc is not even close to what true slaves endured, and I am frankly suprised that you continue to claim such.

You're way smarter than that, so I have to assume you're just being stubborn.

Besides, it really isn't that big of an issue.

I can say that many people are slaves to jobs and materialism without making the claim that we have it just as bad as the true slaves who were owned by another.
 
Red Devil said:
Excellent answer. I could not understand the poster who compared it with materialistic slavery. Beyond comprehension!!
Click to expand...

He apologized.

No worries as everyone makes mistakes. Words can have various meanings.

It's perfectly acceptable to use the term to paint a picture, but yes I would not trade our forms of self-imposed materialistic slavery with the true slaves of the past and present.

Unforunately, there are still people truly enslaved today and it's heartbreaking.
 
spidergoat said:
So if I see, I lose the ability to blink?
Click to expand...
no
its more a case that if you see something desirable to the senses you are controlled by the urge.

IOW an irrevocable attraction between the senses and the object of the senses renders the gross materialist completely servile
 
phlogistician said:
No, it's particularly childish. Failing to recognise the differences between the items can radically change the context. You abstracted to absurdity. You failed.
Click to expand...
what you have failed to do is explain why they are essentially different

both involve applying an arbitrary designation in order to disqualify a cast, colour or creed from a set of values that we generally agree as all inclusive
:shrug:

hence your argument is circular at best and criminal at worst
 
lightgigantic said:
no
its more a case that if you see something desirable to the senses you are controlled by the urge.

IOW an irrevocable attraction between the senses and the object of the senses renders the gross materialist completely servile
Click to expand...

Not completely. The true hedonist uses their intellect to control pleasure so as to increase it in the long term. Obviously if you guzzle vodka like water, you will experience less pleasure than if you regulated your intake to stay comfortably drunk all night.
 
Bravowon said:
To make a bonsai of a baobab means never to taste it's fruit or see its true grace. I don't disagree with you entirely but some indulgences we can afford: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBk3ynRbtsw
Click to expand...
the path to freedom is the path that begins with the ability to control one's senses.
For instance treating the other member of a relationship solely as an object for one's gratification is a good way to render it dysfunctional.

Usually such an outlook is empowered by a sense of nostalgia that doesn't exist (and it culminates in strengthening a sense of identification of the body with the self ... which, as we know, has a predictable course .....)
 
spidergoat said:
Not completely. The true hedonist uses their intellect to control pleasure so as to increase it in the long term. Obviously if you guzzle vodka like water, you will experience less pleasure than if you regulated your intake to stay comfortably drunk all night.
Click to expand...
an intelligent attitude of service to the senses still remains service to the senses

Kind of like a well trained dog will still sniff the butts of others
:D
 
jpappl said:
The difference Lori is that you have a choice. You can go live in a cave, many people live off the grid, self sufficient. They are choosing to live a less materialistic life.

I understand the metaphor, but saying someone is a slave to their job or career etc is not even close to what true slaves endured, and I am frankly suprised that you continue to claim such.

You're way smarter than that, so I have to assume you're just being stubborn.

Besides, it really isn't that big of an issue.

I can say that many people are slaves to jobs and materialism without making the claim that we have it just as bad as the true slaves who were owned by another.
Click to expand...

you think i want to live in a cave? i actually wrote that i did in a poem once, but it was written in the context of the apocalypse, so i meant if it was for good reason. ostracizing myself from society isn't a good reason imo, but survival is. no i want to live in a beautiful work of art, architecture, and engineering that is made out of something really permanent...like diamond maybe, so that all the generations of a family could live there forever. it's not that i don't want to enjoy what earth or it's inhabitants have to offer; i just don't want to pay for it. that would be my choice.

i didn't mean it as a metaphor; i meant it relatively, and i'm not being stubborn as much as an idealist. hey, somebody's got to believe in this shit j, or it's not going to happen! i've said it before and i will reiterate, i want to live in a world in which money does not exist, and what i meant in my poem was, if that's what it takes to make that happen. i want to live in a world where everything is shared and greed doesn't exist. i want everyone to have what they want, but i don't want anyone to want to have more or better than anyone else. i want the treasures of this planet, and the fruits of our labor, and the joy of life, to be valued at their intrinsic value.

so, when you compare my ideal, with slavery, it's still real slavery.
 
Last edited:
lightgigantic said:
because th epath of (actual) intelligence affords a swag of activities that are simply not available for one who is a servant of the senses


If there is no better engagement for the senses than service of the senses, one i s not even that ....
Click to expand...

But it doesn't have to be one or the other. It seems you are saying if you like to indulge your senses, you can't also indulge the mind in it's intellectual pursuits. Aren't they both pleasures but of different kinds? Don't they inform and complement each other? My brain in a jar analogy is an interesting thought experiment. If you never had any input from the senses, would it be possible to have any knowledge at all?
 
to kenny,

who is so afraid for the children.

and jpapple too,

would you agree that child protective services are also afraid for the children? they require that foster parents respect, and work to maintain and support, a child's religion. if a foster parent attends church, and the child doesn't want to attend, then the foster parent has to arrange for babysitting for the child. and if the child wants to go to a particular church, or mosque, or whatever, then you have to take them, or at least arrange for them to be there, and with responsible adult supervision. who knows what kinds of services i'll be attending.

but if that's what it takes to help somebody, then that's exactly what i'll do.

have you ever considered being a foster parent kenny? do you think you could handle it?
 
Last edited:
Lori_7 said:
to kenny,

who is so afraid for the children.

and jpapple too,

would you agree that child protective services are also afraid for the children? they require that foster parents respect, and work to maintain and support, a child's religion. if a foster parent attends church, and the child doesn't want to attend, then the foster parent has to arrange for babysitting for the child. and if the child wants to go to a particular church, or mosque, or whatever, then you have to take them, or at least arrange for them to be there, and with responsible adult supervision. who knows what kinds of services i'll be attending.

but if that's what it takes to help somebody, then that's exactly what i'll do.
Click to expand...

I think that is a good thing over-all if the child is old enough to know what they are choosing and truly has a preference. What I despise is indoctrination of innocents. The problem is that any child by definition is not able to make their own decisions and is in custody of agencies or foster parents or real parents. ....
 
Kennyc said:
I think that is a good thing over-all if the child is old enough to know what they are choosing and truly has a preference. What I despise is indoctrination of innocents. The problem is that any child by definition is not able to make their own decisions and is in custody of agencies or foster parents or real parents. ....
Click to expand...

well, i made my mind up on my own and i wouldn't have it any other way. i wasn't indoctrinated, and i wouldn't wish it on anyone else.

so, would you like to retract the insult you so readily hurled at me?

do you have a spare bedroom? why not?
 
Lori_7 said:
to kenny,

who is so afraid for the children.

and jpapple too,

would you agree that child protective services are also afraid for the children? they require that foster parents respect, and work to maintain and support, a child's religion. if a foster parent attends church, and the child doesn't want to attend, then the foster parent has to arrange for babysitting for the child. and if the child wants to go to a particular church, or mosque, or whatever, then you have to take them, or at least arrange for them to be there, and with responsible adult supervision. who knows what kinds of services i'll be attending.

but if that's what it takes to help somebody, then that's exactly what i'll do.

have you ever considered being a foster parent kenny? do you think you could handle it?
Click to expand...

In some cases protective services work well and other times not so well.

I didn't make any statements about your plans to be a foster parent. Frankly, as long as your heart is in the right place about the welfare of the child then more power to ya. The world needs more who are willing to offer help.

I already have two, no plans to have more, we may in the future do something like that but we already have our hands full.

I wish you the best of luck.

What you will find is that the subject of god, no matter how important to you, will be a luxury to discuss along with many other subjects. Mostly, you will be spending time on the basics of education, feeding, housing and looking after their general health and security. It's a job and you aren't their friend you need to be a parent.

After those are in place then good conversations are important, of course.

Other than what I perceive, only you can know your intentions, if they are good, then no problem.

There are a lot of parents who claim to be religious or are atheist that are cruel to their children. As I suggested before, nobody has the market cornered on good or bad intentions.

Again, good luck.
 
Lori_7 said:
you think i want to live in a cave? i actually wrote that i did in a poem once, but it was written in the context of the apocalypse, so i meant if it was for good reason. ostracizing myself from society isn't a good reason imo, but survival is. no i want to live in a beautiful work of art, architecture, and engineering that is made out of something really permanent...like diamond maybe, so that all the generations of a family could live there forever. it's not that i don't want to enjoy what earth or it's inhabitants have to offer; i just don't want to pay for it. that would be my choice.

i didn't mean it as a metaphor; i meant it relatively, and i'm not being stubborn as much as an idealist. hey, somebody's got to believe in this shit j, or it's not going to happen! i've said it before and i will reiterate, i want to live in a world in which money does not exist, and what i meant in my poem was, if that's what it takes to make that happen. i want to live in a world where everything is shared and greed doesn't exist. i want everyone to have what they want, but i don't want anyone to want to have more or better than anyone else. i want the treasures of this planet, and the fruits of our labor, and the joy of life, to be valued at their intrinsic value.

so, when you compare my ideal, with slavery, it's still real slavery.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I understand you're position on the ideal. But the difference is that one is an ideal, something out in the distance that you WANT us to be etc.

But the slaves and slaves today deal in reality which is not ideal and again, you have choices they do not.

Can you compare your situation to a 12 year old child sex slave who is forced to take care of 30 men a day, on little food and sleep 7 days a week ?

Oh and here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/20/photos-7-modern-day-green_n_687530.html#s128552

Keep in mind that this can only exist because everyone else has insulated it with a massive military machine. If this was a community 2000 years ago a rival tribe could come in, kill all the men, take the women and children and the land.

There is a reason why we have come to the point we are at. It didn't happen overnight, and it won't change for the better overnight. It will take time, you and I just won't be here to see it.
 
jpappl said:
I disagree. I understand you're position on the ideal. But the difference is that one is an ideal, something out in the distance that you WANT us to be etc.

But the slaves and slaves today deal in reality which is not ideal and again, you have choices they do not.

Can you compare your situation to a 12 year old child sex slave who is forced to take care of 30 men a day, on little food and sleep 7 days a week ?
Click to expand...

i would compare it to having to live every fucking day in a world in which 12 year olds are sold as sex slaves.


Oh and here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/20/photos-7-modern-day-green_n_687530.html#s128552

Keep in mind that this can only exist because everyone else has insulated it with a massive military machine. If this was a community 2000 years ago a rival tribe could come in, kill all the men, take the women and children and the land.

There is a reason why we have come to the point we are at. It didn't happen overnight, and it won't change for the better overnight. It will take time, you and I just won't be here to see it.
Click to expand...

i think that change is going to come in a more abrupt form at some point, as it often has in the past, and i will be somewhere to see it. i would see it though.
 
Lori_7 said:
well, i made my mind up on my own and i wouldn't have it any other way. i wasn't indoctrinated, and i wouldn't wish it on anyone else.

so, would you like to retract the insult you so readily hurled at me?

do you have a spare bedroom? why not?
Click to expand...

I sorry if you feel insulted, but I have nothing to retract. I'm still concerned about any children that might be put in your custody based on your behavior here.
 
Kennyc said:
I sorry if you feel insulted, but I have nothing to retract. I'm still concerned about any children that might be put in your custody based on your behavior here.
Click to expand...

what behavior? is it because i don't care how old the earth is?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top