The Miracles of Father Nacho

Leo Volont said:
No.

"Faith" was the First Teaching of the Antichrist.

You need to understand how the Doctrine of Faith is actually used. It is not used to explain Miracles, in that, so and so can walk on water because he has 'Faith'. It is always used in the negative to explain why so and so CANNOT walk on water -- that his 'Faith' is insufficient.

Look at all the New Age Cults out there that preach Faith. A million housewives are out there who think they only need Faith to win the Lottery, and every week they are told, again, that there Faith is not yet strong enough.

The Direct Disciples of Jesus did not need Faith. Being of the Vine of Christ all they needed was their Will. It was only with the Rise of the Antichrist Paul, that the congregations were stripped of their Miraculous Powers. Paul needed to find an excuse to explain away the Loss of Power. The Explanation became the Doctrine of Faith -- and that nobody apparently had it.

Hello Leo,

The concept of faith goes much further back then Christ's teachings. Faith is apparently very important to God. The furthest back I can think of an example, is Noah, if he had had no faith we might not be here today.

Abraham also, was a great man of faith, so too Mose's. Faith is a biblical idea, the new age business is irrelevant as you need to place your faith in the right place to begin with.

Jesus got a tad annoyed at times with the lack of faith showed by his disciples, why was this?

Calling faith the first teaching of the antichrist is way off.

Dave
 
Dear Dave,

You are talking about 'Obedience to God' and using the word 'Faith' to describe it. Yes, that is how the word was often used, and that is why the Antichrist hijacked the word.

Under the Antichrist, the idea became current that if one could sufficiently convince oneself intellectually that a certain set of Doctrines could have a certain Magical Effect, then they would. It is commonly expressed in formulas similar to "If you have Faith in Jesus, you will be Saved". You can't compare this to Moses or Noah. God presented Himself to Moses and to Noah, prior to any demands for explicit obedience. There was never any question afterward as to whether or not they would have a powerful intellectual conviction in the Existence of God.

Also, it is not necessary for my argument to suppose that Satanic Influence was absent from the Old Testament. It most certainly was not. From the very Beginning Satan has challenged every Move God has ever made. Afterall, it was not three Generations after Abraham when Satan took over the Jews with the Usurper Jacob.

We also have to look at the Human Interests involved in the notion of Faith. For instance, even if it was True that Murdering the Messiah could procure Salvation for Mankind, why should we suppose that Faith should be required? If Forgiveness were to be Unversal and otherwise Unconditional, then is God not being a bit petty by requiring Knowledge and Acknowledgment. You would think that if God were going to give out a Dispensation that totally emempts Humanity from Morality, that He would be no great stickler about trivial requirements. Afterall, Humanity was not required to have Faith in the Curse of Adam, or to have Faith in Original Sin, or Faith in Death, or Faith in Taxes, or Faith in the nutrition of Food or Faith Orgasms. So why should the only thing that requires Faith be Salvation? I will tell you why. Paul needed a Product to sell for Money. That product was Faith.
 
Hello Leo!

Thank you for a good in depth post.

Leo Volont said:
You are talking about 'Obedience to God' and using the word 'Faith' to describe it. Yes, that is how the word was often used, and that is why the Antichrist hijacked the word.

When you talk about the antichrist, are you referring to the incorrectly named AC of the endtimes? or the AC spirit?

Under the Antichrist, the idea became current that if one could sufficiently convince oneself intellectually that a certain set of Doctrines could have a certain Magical Effect, then they would. It is commonly expressed in formulas similar to "If you have Faith in Jesus, you will be Saved". You can't compare this to Moses or Noah. God presented Himself to Moses and to Noah, prior to any demands for explicit obedience. There was never any question afterward as to whether or not they would have a powerful intellectual conviction in the Existence of God.

Would you say that Father Nacho had strong faith?

Also, it is not necessary for my argument to suppose that Satanic Influence was absent from the Old Testament. It most certainly was not. From the very Beginning Satan has challenged every Move God has ever made. Afterall, it was not three Generations after Abraham when Satan took over the Jews with the Usurper Jacob.

Yes, he most certainly has, I agree.

We also have to look at the Human Interests involved in the notion of Faith. For instance, even if it was True that Murdering the Messiah could procure Salvation for Mankind, why should we suppose that Faith should be required?

Faith is required due to lack of evidence, not just of Jesus' ressurection but for some even in his existance. So first you get your faith and then become more like Christ after that. It's the first step if you like.

If Forgiveness were to be Unversal and otherwise Unconditional, then is God not being a bit petty by requiring Knowledge and Acknowledgment.

Well Jesus said this:

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

You would think that if God were going to give out a Dispensation that totally emempts Humanity from Morality, that He would be no great stickler about trivial requirements.

Acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God, who came in the flesh is not a trivial matter, ask any practicing Jew or a Muslim.

Afterall, Humanity was not required to have Faith in the Curse of Adam, or to have Faith in Original Sin, or Faith in Death, or Faith in Taxes, or Faith in the nutrition of Food or Faith Orgasms. So why should the only thing that requires Faith be Salvation? I will tell you why. Paul needed a Product to sell for Money. That product was Faith.

Well if you believe that you will gain Salvation, how have you achieved it? In my mind, faith is a requirement for salvation Leo. As for Paul, as far as we know he had a life of constant torment, not a life of a king living of some money he got from selling a story.

Dave
 
Leo Volont said:
Hi Crunchy.

Lets keep going in this circle. I would like to protect Father Enuncio from Episcopal Persecution. Besides, I am almost certain that the hospitals did not document the fact that numbers of patients whom they declared dead were later found to be quite alive (Yes, it was a large Metropolatan Area in which there was more than one Catholic Hospital).

But I offer a compromise. The Lourdes Site I keep recommending. Here it is:

http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=491&id_rubrique=488

They documented over a hundred miracles.

It makes my miracles redundant, no?

Leo,

It is the never-ending circle. I appreciate the compromise; however, it
unfortunately does not address the area I was interested in with Father
Enuncio. I will say this however, if someone comes to the SciForums table
with a fantastic claim + supportive evidence then they will go a long way.
 
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