The down side of being an atheist.

[Silas]

Mosheh, seriously, if people were constantly dropping dead from giving blood, nobody would give blood any more. What you've actually proved is that a drop in blood pressure sufficient to make you pass out causes a "tunnel" hallucination, exactly the same as all the others anybody's ever read about. And even then, that might be cultural conditioning. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in God or an afterlife or whatever, but do not believe you actually had a glimpse of the real Afterlife, your soul is in peril if you do.

THE down side.. is if they are right.. in which case... life was meaningless.

-MT (THE UPSIDE IS if they are wrong... in which they will all burn...)

Typical deist. Secretly wishing that all of us, who don't agree with you, burn for an eternity. If god does that, he is the complete opposite of what you claim he is, and I don't give a shit if I burn for all fucking eternity.

Tut tut, Cottontop! I won't hear a word against Deists, and deists certainly do not believe anything of the kind about eternal damnation. But if you meant theists, then I am in agreement that too many times you read sanctimonious delight in the eternal torture of people who did nothing other than think things through for themselves.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Yes, Silas, I did mean Theists. Thanks for the correction. I'm not thinking too clearly lately.

 

[Dinosaur]

Mosheh Thezion I am sorely tempted to disbelieve your story about passing out due to pumping your hand fast while giving blood. I have encountered a number of religious people who fabricate experiences to further their agenda.

Assuming that you did not fabricate the story, I would attribute it to your having having some unusual condition relating to your blood pressure or to your being prone to pass out due to some other condition.

Millions of people give blood. Those who run donor stations are trained and there is no danger for a person who is within 2 standard deviations of a healthy norm.

I have heard of people passing out due to seeing blood, which is a common reaction in our civilized culture, where one seldom sees more that a few drops due to a minor injury. Passing out due to this is not dangerous if you are close to being a normal healthy person.

While I have read about the so called near death experience, I have never heard of it occurring in circumstances other than being clinically dead and requring major intervention for revivial. I am sure that this was not the case in your blood donor experience.

BTW: I do not believe there is anything mystical about NDE's.

 

[spidergoat]

LUCKILY for me... i am content to accept the clear possibility that i am wrong... and we might STILL BE AWAKE... SO TO SPEAK..

i gave blood once.. and i asked the guy across from me.. how long it takes.. and he said it would go faster if i pump my hand...

so like an idiot.. i pumped my hand.. and in about i think 10 seconds.. i passed out..

and i found myself flying at tremedous speed threw a tunnel.. and emerging into some form of yellowish glowing medium of somekind..
not a liquid.. and not a gas.. a solid.. which glowed.. and i was floating, and while i had arms and legs they were intangeble...
and i looked around and i thought.. 'gosh.. this is wierd, cause i know i was just sitting in a chair...'

so having nothing to look at, i tried to turn around and look at the tunnel i just came out of.. and i think i have a vague memory of a tiny dot.. receeding away...

and then.. bamm.. i was back in my body and the nurse was waving smelling salts in my face and asking my name...

if she was unattentive.. and let me pass out for 30 seconds.. i would have been dead..

then the guy across from me asked me what happened and what i saw...
he did that to me on purpose.. i now believe.

-MT

I had the same thing happen to me during minor surgery. It's called passing out. You interpret it with the framework in which you were indoctrinated. Actually, I had a much more interesting experience with salvia where I met two entities in another plane, but I still can't believe it. Also, one time I saw Jesus in the pattern of light on my ceiling, and he gave me some relationship advice, but I think both things happened in my mind only.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I had the same thing happen to me during minor surgery. It's called passing out. You interpret it with the framework in which you were indoctrinated. Actually, I had a much more interesting experience with salvia where I met two entities in another plane, but I still can't believe it. Also, one time I saw Jesus in the pattern of light on my ceiling, and he gave me some relationship advice, but I think both things happened in my mind only.

*************
M*W: Yeah, when I was a good Catholic, I saw the Virgin Mary dancing on the hood of my car as I was driving my children to school. At that time I had read all of Hal Lindsay's books, and one night while I was reading, I thought I saw the devil in my house about to attack me. Now, I realize they were all figments of my imagination. These events didn't really happen, but my mind created them due to my christian indoctrination. Yet, when I visited The Vatican, expecting to have the mother of all religious hallucinations, all I saw was evil human indoctrination to a dying demigod savior that wasn't even real! Then I realized the whole world had been duped, and this shrine was nothing more than a pagan Roman worship altar and christianity simply didn't exist as we had been told and believed.

 

[Cottontop3000]

I've got a question. Medicine Woman kind of alluded to it just now in her last post. With regard to dreams, nightmares, near-death experiences, visions, hallucinations, whatever.

First, are there any current atheists or agnostics here who were raised in religious homes but have since stopped believing?

Second, for those of you that fall into this category, did you have dreams of god or satan, a near death experience, vision, or whatever while believing in your god?

Third, since the time you stopped believing in your god, have you still had these same types of dreams, near death experiences (hopefully not), visions or whatever?

Finally, since you stopped believing in your god, have you started having any new types of dreams, near death experiences (again, hopefully not), or visions that could be associated with your new beliefs as an atheist or agnostic? Different visions. Visions, not of god or satan or whatever, but visions of some new nature?

For me, yes to the first two. No to the last two. It would be interesting to me to see if there is a correlation between types of visions and states of beliefs.

 

[FallingSkyward]

Some people are atheists because it's the same thing as having faith in something you can have no conception of. I don't believe it because I can't believe it. Thinking you believe in God is just arrogance. How could someone know enough about the nature of God to have a accurate image of it in their mind?

Christians do not believe they have an accurate image of Him. He is not physical, they cannot imagine him.

 

[Lerxst]

First, are there any current atheists or agnostics here who were raised in religious homes but have since stopped believing?

Yep. Raised a JW. Agnostic now.

Second, for those of you that fall into this category, did you have a near death experience, vision, or whatever while believing in your god?

Nothing very exciting. I thought I could see auras and have OOB experiences.

Third, since the time you stopped believing in your god, have you still had these nde, visions or whatever?

Nope.

Finally, since you stopped believing in your god, have you started having any new types of visions that could be associated with your new beliefs as an atheist or agnostic? Different visions. Visions, not of jesus or satan or whatever, but visions of some new nature?

Nothing.

BTW, I was reading in Michael Shermer's The Science of Good and Evil (great book!!) that researchers have located specific brain areas that can be tickled with magnetic fields in order to cause OOB or similar mystical experiences. Maybe that is old news, but I hadn't really read about it before. Fascinating stuff.

 

[cato]

the downside for me, is that I loose a great deal of respect for people who go Abrahamist.

I posted a thread about a female friend of mine that converted last summer, she was one of people I admired most. now she repeats the doctrine of her church and throws around words like intelligent designer (because it has become more beneficial for churches to push their doctrine saying that instead of creator), and completely ignoring the weak anthropic principal, something that we sat next to each other and learned, while making arguments for a creator.

I used to want to be more like her (great schoolwork ethic), now I feel like a she has become a crack addict and I should have an intervention, but you can't have an intervention when everyone is a crack head.
”

Its very narrowminded of you to think that when someone finds religion, they are equivalent to a crack addict. I am sure your friend is still a fully functional person that has somepart of herself filled with religion. Religion meets her need, whereas, others eat chocolate and ice cream. Atheists tend to fill themselves with arrogance/pride. This isn't a blanket statement, but I know a lot of atheist that can't talk about anything but themselves, their views, or whats going on in their lives.

I didn't say it was equivalent, I said I felt I should intervene, like you would a crack addict, but we are surrounded by people who think their psychosis is normal. YOU SHOULD NOT TALK TO, AND HEAR RESPONSES FROM, NONEXISTENT PEOPLE! but that is what religious people do all the time. its sad really,

 

[Dinosaur]

While religious beliefs might affect the subject matter seen when having hallucination, NDE’s, et cetera, I do not think that religious beliefs cause such mental phenomena.

The above is merely an opinion based on limited experience with those who had hallucinations.

 

[Quigly]

I YOU SHOULD NOT TALK TO, AND HEAR RESPONSES FROM, NONEXISTENT PEOPLE! but that is what religious people do all the time. its sad really,

To you it is non-existent and from your experience and belief or lack of it is non-existent, but to the majority, Religion is very real. It isn't like all of a sudden christianity was the first religion to talk to god. Religion is traced back to the earliest of civilizations that can be studied. Praying, worshipping, ect.. to gods. This isn't a new concept. You indicate this behaviour to be irrational, maybe disillusioned, and characteristic of insane people, but it isn't at all. Put an atheist and a christian up to a test and most likely you will find both to be perfectly sane individuals. The exception is that even some "religious" people are seriously nuts and having mental problems just like some atheists. Every group of people have their nutjobs.

 

[Hapsburg]

moatoe

:bugeye:
Cross between a Moa and a Tomato?

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

YOU PEOPLE ARE MORONS... WHAT do you think the nurses are there for??

they must keep you awake... because if you pass out.. you can die.

a rapid loss of blood pressure causes a black out.. and the body responds in the same way it does if you arm was cut open and bleeeding..

it thinks you are dieing.. and starts to shut down.

you people either dont give blood, or just never ask questions..

i have given blood once.. and i asked alot of questions.

this is common knowledge that any idiot should know.
when blood is draining from your body... it should happen slowly.. to aviod death.

-MT

 

[cato]

ever donate a double red? you give a normal amount of blood, the separate the plasma, with a cool ass machine, and pump it back in you. then, they take another donation and do the same thing. the strange part is when they pump the plasma, which they mix with saline, back in you. its so cold you can feel it spreading through you.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

:bugeye:
Cross between a Moa and a Tomato?

OMG thats some funny shit right there

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I've got a question. Medicine Woman kind of alluded to it just now in her last post. With regard to dreams, nightmares, near-death experiences, visions, hallucinations, whatever.

First, are there any current atheists or agnostics here who were raised in religious homes but have since stopped believing?

Yep. My answers to the next questions don't apply to near-death experience as I have not had it.

Second, for those of you that fall into this category, did you have dreams of god or satan, a near death experience, vision, or whatever while believing in your god?

Yep... and I had plenty other dreams and hallucinations which dwarfed the experience ot the aforementioned.

Third, since the time you stopped believing in your god, have you still had these same types of dreams, near death experiences (hopefully not), visions or whatever?

Yep.

Finally, since you stopped believing in your god, have you started having any new types of dreams, near death experiences (again, hopefully not), or visions that could be associated with your new beliefs as an atheist or agnostic? Different visions. Visions, not of god or satan or whatever, but visions of some new nature?

Yep.

 

[geeser]

I've got a question. Medicine Woman kind of alluded to it just now in her last post. With regard to dreams, nightmares, near-death experiences, visions, hallucinations, whatever.

First, are there any current atheists or agnostics here who were raised in religious homes but have since stopped believing?

yes.

Second, for those of you that fall into this category, did you have dreams of god or satan, a near death experience, vision, or whatever while believing in your god?

yes dreams, but none of the others.

Third, since the time you stopped believing in your god, have you still had these same types of dreams, near death experiences (hopefully not), visions or whatever?

I would assume yes, however only dreams

Finally, since you stopped believing in your god, have you started having any new types of dreams, near death experiences (again, hopefully not), or visions that could be associated with your new beliefs as an atheist or agnostic? Different visions. Visions, not of god or satan or whatever, but visions of some new nature?

yes, but only dreams, however as I cant remember every dream, I've had I must assume that every dream I have is different.

 

[(Q)]

THE down side.. is if they are right.. in which case... life was meaningless.

-MT (THE UPSIDE IS if they are wrong... in which they will all burn...)

You consider your life meaningful with a god whereas I consider my life meaningful without a god. Therefore, I must do everything in my power to enrich my life and give it the meaning that I chose whereas you will fritter the hours away praying for an afterlife.

If I am right, I'll have experienced a life of understanding and harmony with this world. I'll leave having not intentionally done harm to anyone. You on the other hand would have wasted it.

If you're right, you'll get your afterlife and can crow to your hearts content. I most likely will also be accepted into your heaven since I did nothing to warrant going to your hell other than question the existence of your god.

And since your god instilled to me the ability to reason, he would not be dissapointed in the fact I fully utilized that ability to its ultimate end in questioning his existence.

That is, if he also instilled the concept of free will.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Thanks Lerxst, Crunchy Cat and geeser. It sounds like, based soley on the four of us, that there may or may not be a correlation between faith in a god and dreams of a godly nature. Inconclusive. I should have asked for you to expound on your answers.

When I was a child, I had two occurrences of waking up in the middle of the night positive that a demon was standing by my bed about to get me. I was so scared that I couldn't move. I know that this is explained now as just waking up from a deep sleep, or REM sleep I think, with your muscles still almost paralyzed.

I haven't had a similar dream in a long time. In Maine, in 2000, I did have another weird, almost waking dream, where I thought I was awake. I floated up out of my bed, through the roof of my apartment, the moon was out, and I remember just slowly continuing up, looking around at the countryside, the beautiful sky, stars and moon, amazed at the perspective I had. It was beautiful. When I realized what was happening to me, it seemed that I was instantly sucked back into my body, and I woke up. It was one of those dreams that freaks you out for a good while afterwards. I turned the light next to my bed on and just sat there breathing heavily, mind racing. It was cool, but it freaked me out. If it matters, this was at a time in my life when I was heavily questioning god.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

When I was a child, I had two occurrences of waking up in the middle of the night positive that a demon was standing by my bed about to get me. I was so scared that I couldn't move. I know that this is explained now as just waking up from a deep sleep, or REM sleep I think, with your muscles still almost paralyzed.

It's two seperate events that usually happen together. sleep paralysis and hypnogogic hallucination. Really cool shit.