Not exactly. I'm talking about a future when through science, people attain a transcendent state beyond the physical body and beyond time.
The down side of being an atheist.
- Thread starter Dinosaur
- Start date
I did not mean to imply that I am unhappy with my atheist view.
I am only annoyed at those who are absolutely convinced that they will be able to say "I told you so" as I suffer in hell for my blasphemous view. They actually seem to have the smug satisfaction of saying it now.
From about age 10-13 until I was 18-22 (my time sense is very bad), I called myself an agnostic. Then I read the following quip in (I think) The Reader’s Digest.
I do not preach atheism. I do not try to convince others of my view unless they try to convert me. I neither bring the subject up nor deny my view when somebody else introduces the subject.
As for atheists being arrogant: I have been called arrogant by some who are not very bright. Those who believe in nonsense like ESP, Alien abductions, OBE, astrology, Tarot cards, Ouija boards, Bermuda Triangle phenomena, et cetera object to being told that their views are irrational. They prefer to say that I am arrogant or that I have a closed mind.
BTW: I am one of the few here at SciForums who has (on occasion) posted an admission of being in error. Unlike many here and others I have encountered elsewhere, most people defend views they expressed without thinking. I often suspect that such people know they made a mistake in haste, but have a phobia about admitting to an error.
Other than for some orthodox fundamentalists, I have never been called arrogant by those with religious beliefs, whom I treat with courtesy & respect for their opinions if they do not try to convert me. I have never been called arrogant by anyone I respected, although I often describe my teenage self as being incredibly arrogant. I expected to be a Nobel prize winner and to represent the US in at least one sport in the Olympic games. I suppose that was more delusional than arrogant.
The few atheists I have known never seemed arrogant to me. Some fanatically religious people consider atheists arrogant because they feel the view defies god. I wonder why they do not say foolhardy rather than arrogant, which is what I would say if I were a believer.
I am only annoyed at those who are absolutely convinced that they will be able to say "I told you so" as I suffer in hell for my blasphemous view. They actually seem to have the smug satisfaction of saying it now.
From about age 10-13 until I was 18-22 (my time sense is very bad), I called myself an agnostic. Then I read the following quip in (I think) The Reader’s Digest.
That woke me up to the fact that I was afraid to admit (even to myself) that I was an atheist. The religious teachings and the attitudes of my family, society, friends, et cetera had made me have qualms about being an atheist. I never again allowed the views of others to influence my views of reality unless they had evidence, logic, or at least some cogent arguments supporting their views.
I do not preach atheism. I do not try to convince others of my view unless they try to convert me. I neither bring the subject up nor deny my view when somebody else introduces the subject.
As for atheists being arrogant: I have been called arrogant by some who are not very bright. Those who believe in nonsense like ESP, Alien abductions, OBE, astrology, Tarot cards, Ouija boards, Bermuda Triangle phenomena, et cetera object to being told that their views are irrational. They prefer to say that I am arrogant or that I have a closed mind.
BTW: I am one of the few here at SciForums who has (on occasion) posted an admission of being in error. Unlike many here and others I have encountered elsewhere, most people defend views they expressed without thinking. I often suspect that such people know they made a mistake in haste, but have a phobia about admitting to an error.
Other than for some orthodox fundamentalists, I have never been called arrogant by those with religious beliefs, whom I treat with courtesy & respect for their opinions if they do not try to convert me. I have never been called arrogant by anyone I respected, although I often describe my teenage self as being incredibly arrogant. I expected to be a Nobel prize winner and to represent the US in at least one sport in the Olympic games. I suppose that was more delusional than arrogant.
The few atheists I have known never seemed arrogant to me. Some fanatically religious people consider atheists arrogant because they feel the view defies god. I wonder why they do not say foolhardy rather than arrogant, which is what I would say if I were a believer.
spidergoat said:
religious don't believe they come to the sky with the clouds either, heaven is just another word for mind, consciousness. people thought gods were in the sky, above them because they couldn't reach the sky, but god is within.
people are atheists because they don't know what god is, they see it as a man in the sky. i doubt many religious people see it that way.
Some people are atheists because it's the same thing as having faith in something you can have no conception of. I don't believe it because I can't believe it. Thinking you believe in God is just arrogance. How could someone know enough about the nature of God to have a accurate image of it in their mind?
Dinosaur:
Good post above.
There is only a minoity of atheists that I would consider arrogant. These are the folks that will instantly judge anyone who has any religious belief whatsoever to be a moron or a sheep. Most atheists are not like that, thankfully. They give all of us nontheists a bad name.
I had the opposite transformation from yourself. I went from atheism to agnosticism several years ago.
Good post above.
There is only a minoity of atheists that I would consider arrogant. These are the folks that will instantly judge anyone who has any religious belief whatsoever to be a moron or a sheep. Most atheists are not like that, thankfully. They give all of us nontheists a bad name.
I had the opposite transformation from yourself. I went from atheism to agnosticism several years ago.
C7ityi: What makes you think that atheists see god as a man in the sky?
BTW: It is interesting that you do not capitalize anything, even words like god & pronouns referring to him.
I often wonder if some keyboards do not have a shift key. It is obvious that many here do not allow their posted remarks to get close to a spell checker.
I am aware of many notions of god believed in by others, but have no personal concept of what he is, since I do not believe he exists. Asking me to describe my view of the characteristics of god is equivalent to asking me to estimate the IQ of a leprechaun or a centaur.
BTW: It is interesting that you do not capitalize anything, even words like god & pronouns referring to him.
I often wonder if some keyboards do not have a shift key. It is obvious that many here do not allow their posted remarks to get close to a spell checker.
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charles cure
Guest
Mosheh Thezion said:
how exactly does the spirit burn?
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charles cure
Guest
Dinosaur said:
i dont capitalize god because to me it is just a concept, not a proper name. to capitalize it makes it seem as though it is the name of a thing that exists.
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charles cure
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Lerxst said:
what exactly is wrong with thinking that someone is less intelligent or somehow dangerous for supporting the idea that one does not need to have any evidence of where they derive their authority from? the belief in god has resulted in an unfathomable amount of torture, bloodshed, and turmoil throughout the whole of history and has stunted the intellectual and scientific progress of whole civilizations at various points. how can you say that someone who continues to support the underlying concept that makes these events possible is not somehow at the least ignorant of the consequences of their own beliefs and actions?
atheists are forced to live under the yoke of a set of values that are derived from a source of authority that they probably see as a complete joke. every civilization on this planet has based its laws and cultural norms on a history shaped by religious belief, and the only variable is the tolerance of the culture for either only one religion or a proliferation of them. why should i have respect for the pillars of a system that put me at a disadvantage or force me to accept morality that is based not in reason, but in religious tradition? why should i support a government whose head is motivated by a religious belief to proclaim that whole countries are "evil" because they stand in the way of an economic interest. how is that intelligent? why should i think that people who are currently setting fire to danish embassies around the world because a paper in denmark published a CARTOON that they believed to be defamatory to their insane belief have any intelligence at all? explain that to me and justify the stance taken by atheists who view religion as some harmless eccentricity instead of a baseless and dangerous institution that threatens the survival of humanity as a whole.
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
charles cure said:
OUR SOULS... must be energy...
and at death our soul is released... so what does it convert into?
it can become pure static energy and cross the entire universe...
or it can become radiowaves.. and get lost in deep space.. purgatory.
or it can simply convert directly into heat energy as by entropy.... meaning all your memories.. your soul.. converts into heat... burning in hell...
-MT
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charles cure
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Mosheh Thezion said:
thats one serious reach there. good try though.
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
WHEN WE DIE... our bodies auras.. collapse... to include the fields of the brain...
and when an electromagnetic field collapses.. it does one thing...
converts into electrostatic potential... which can then.. convert into any form of energy...
the easiest form to take is heat...
the most difficult form to take is to stay as static potential and reach across space to some outer heaven...
and purgatory is for those who just dont make it that far... they get lost in dark deep space.... in limbo.. purgatory.
-MT
and when an electromagnetic field collapses.. it does one thing...
converts into electrostatic potential... which can then.. convert into any form of energy...
the easiest form to take is heat...
the most difficult form to take is to stay as static potential and reach across space to some outer heaven...
and purgatory is for those who just dont make it that far... they get lost in dark deep space.... in limbo.. purgatory.
-MT
C
charles cure
Guest
Mosheh Thezion said:
yeah but theres no consciousness there, not in the sense that we understand it. so you dont feel like youre burning for all eternity. and i would even dispute the assumption that the electrostatic energy would exist in the same form it leaves your body in for more than a few hours or at the most days after you die. not really an eternity.
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
WHY SHOULD WE REMAIN CONSCIOUS?????
and... why an eternity?? also... as pure electrostatic energy, we would likely be free of the constraints of time as we know it....
and in the few seconds that it takes to convert to heat, an NEAR eternty in hell could be experienced... assuming we are conscious.
but the idea that we live on... with consciousness is i think the flaw in judgement..
there is no reason to think we do..
only that what was us.. our lives.. our memories.. maybe preserved..
downloaded to the heaven... by our death.. and conversion processes in our brain.. yielding the energy to manifest as discussed.
-MT
and... why an eternity?? also... as pure electrostatic energy, we would likely be free of the constraints of time as we know it....
and in the few seconds that it takes to convert to heat, an NEAR eternty in hell could be experienced... assuming we are conscious.
but the idea that we live on... with consciousness is i think the flaw in judgement..
there is no reason to think we do..
only that what was us.. our lives.. our memories.. maybe preserved..
downloaded to the heaven... by our death.. and conversion processes in our brain.. yielding the energy to manifest as discussed.
-MT
Not all conceptions of religion necessarily involve the derivation of authority from a supernatural being. I certainly wouldn't entertain any that did.
That is true. Although some repressive regimes have found a way to do this without religious motivation, I'd have to imagine that they are well behind in terms of the misery caused by organized religion over time.
If I live peacefully and according to the normal rules of our American society but hold private convictions that include a God (that I may or may not share in public with you), what consequences are you speaking of? What actions of mine are you talking about? How do I share in the responsibility of what some fundamentalist nuts are doing? I don't. You cannot judge me by the actions of others, based on the fact that I share, say, 2% of their beliefs and you share 0%.
You cannot paint every person who says "yes, I have religious convictions" with the same broad brush.
I'm not asking you to respect the pillars of the system. I don't respect organized religion or it's track record myself.
It is not intelligent, and you shouldn't support it. I don't.
You shouldn't, because they are demonstrating quite clearly to all that they are dangerous idiots.
Fundamentalism isn't harmless. Indeed, I agree it is the most dangerous force on the planet. It shouldn't be viewed as harmless.
On the other hand, the personal religious convictions of any one particular individual may have nothing to do fundamentalism at all.
Freeman Dyson, to give an example, is a brilliant physicist, who has contributed more to science than most of us ever will. And he believes in God. His personal beliefs are totally irrelevant to his skills as a scientist, and to conclude that the man is somehow lacking in intelligence because of those convictions is absolutely risible.
dixonmassey
Valued Senior Member
Dinosaur said:
From what I see, all believers are trying to stick around on the sinful Earth as long as possible, at all cost. Great thereafter is not a priority of believing crowd, to say the least. Sure, they will say, I'm fulfilling God's will here on Earth, God has brought me to this Earth for purpose, God would not want his children to suffer premature? death, and so on. However, I strongly feel that most of them have deeply hidden worm of doubt about that great thereafter (or their place in it). Admission of such doubts will buy direct ticket to the Hell (in Jesus crowd case). Thus, self (and others) deceit is a must.
Eternal Sleep... aahhh...Zzzz...
I would say theres not much to be down about, so you only live, say 70 years, if you lived a good life, and had children then your seed go's on and you will never really die.
your mind and body cease to function, but your progeny, continue.
and if say, you become famous, you will be remembered for a long time.
your mind and body cease to function, but your progeny, continue.
and if say, you become famous, you will be remembered for a long time.
spidergoat said:
god is not an image, it's the self. why don't you believe me?
dinosaur said:
sometimes i capitalize, look at my other posts, but i can't do it now, i would get sick. and hebrew has no big letters. maybe words don't deserve to be big.
mis-t-highs said:
why would i want to be remembered if i just stop existing anyway?