The difference between Christian God and Allah

[lightgigantic]

Cris

“ Inconceivable oneness and difference ”

I don’t see the inconceivable aspect. Sunshine is an effect caused by the sun. They are not the same thing.

(rolls up his sleeve to return the semantic volley back over the net)
But how can sunshine exist seperate from the sun?

“ God acts either directly or through his potencies - makes no difference to him ”

The analogy with the sun somewhat breaks down here. While sunshine is an effect, people are not effects in the same way, but instead are meant to be individuals with independent free wills. Jesus is portrayed as an individual and as someone who freely sacrificed himself to save mankind. If he was merely an appendage of God and was just following his instructions then the essential nature of Christianity is lost. His separateness is essential.

religion becomes dynamic when one actually surrenders to god - this concept of course causes an atheist to either wet their pants or vomit.

This means that Jesus must have been a separate entity with his own free will.

yes, but by dint of his surrender he is in an exalted status

Now was he just a man or a god?

is the sunshine seperate from the sun or part of the sun?

He could not have been a man since he led a perfect sinless life and that is impossible for any real man because man inherited a sinful nature from Adam. That pretty much means he is a powerful individual in his own right. We can see he is not a man, so what is he?

if inconceivable oneness and difference was conceivable it wouldn't be called inconceivable

“ Therefore a mundane analogy for a transcendental phenomena has obvious limitations ”

You probably had a point but who knows. What’s a “transcendental phenomena”?

For these purposes we could determine that a transcendental phenomena is simply something unknown - so the anlaogy of using a known thing to illustrate an unknown thing has obvious limitations (like if I indicate the location of a star in th e sky by saying it is at the end of that tree branch, does that mean you can find it by climbing the tree?)

 

[Cris]

LG,

But how can sunshine exist seperate from the sun?

A dependency doesn’t mean it is the same thing.

religion becomes dynamic when …

What does that mean?

yes, but by dint of his surrender he is in an exalted status

But he didn’t surrender, he was born special. Read the nativity stories. Apparently born of a virgin where the father was a god. Doesn’t this effectively make him a god as well?

is the sunshine seperate from the sun or part of the sun?

See above. Done with that.

if inconceivable oneness and difference was conceivable it wouldn't be called inconceivable

What? You brought it up.

.. transcendental phenomena is simply something unknown …

Hmm, OK thanks. I’ll add that to my LG gibberish translation guide.

 

[lightgigantic]

Cris

“ But how can sunshine exist seperate from the sun? ”

A dependency doesn’t mean it is the same thing.

(runs to the far corner of the court to deliver a spectacular return)
So how exactly can the sunshine exist seperate from the sun

“ religion becomes dynamic when … ”

What does that mean?

It bears results (visible in but not limited to numbers, social influence etc)

“ yes, but by dint of his surrender he is in an exalted status ”

But he didn’t surrender, he was born special.

he was born surrendered?

Read the nativity stories. Apparently born of a virgin where the father was a god. Doesn’t this effectively make him a god as well?

well since we all technically emmanate from god I guess that would make us all gods huh?
(being god requires a lot more than a virgin birth - its certainly unique, but I can quote numerous other scriptural incidents of pious and not so pious persons appearing via a virgin birth)

“ is the sunshine seperate from the sun or part of the sun? ”

See above. Done with that.

(the crowd gasps as Cris is caught off guard by the speedy return of LG onto the otherside of his court .....)

“ if inconceivable oneness and difference was conceivable it wouldn't be called inconceivable ”

What? You brought it up.

And you are the one trying to determine the exact nature of something that is inconceivable - good luck

“ .. transcendental phenomena is simply something unknown … ”

Hmm, OK thanks. I’ll add that to my LG gibberish translation guide.

if you don't know what a transcendental phenomena is, why do have a problem with it being catergorized, especially for your level of understanding in the matter, as "something unknown"?

 

[xandrique]

I think that the religious often don't realize that their beliefs could possibly be fallible and that they can be misinformed about any topic, especially religion. Both of the subjects in this discussion accuse the other of being taken in by lies but it does appear as though each side, back to Mohammad and Jesus, believed full heartedly in their revelations.. so maybe it's misinformation on one or the other, or both's behalf.
The scriptures are handled by fallible men, not written there by god and we have never been prophets (at least without being diagnosed as schizophrenics) so how could we know the process by which inspired writings happen? If anything, scriptures sound like here-say of theologians.

So it's the same god with two different interpretations of the divine, sullied further by interpretations of interpretations (hence why no two christians believe the exact same thing and same with no two muslims). Just because people get the ideas wrong doesn't mean that it's a different god altogether, just a different idea.

 

[lightgigantic]

I think that the religious often don't realize that their beliefs could possibly be fallible and that they can be misinformed about any topic, especially religion. Both of the subjects in this discussion accuse the other of being taken in by lies but it does appear as though each side, back to Mohammad and Jesus, believed full heartedly in their revelations.. so maybe it's misinformation on one or the other, or both's behalf.
The scriptures are handled by fallible men, not written there by god and we have never been prophets (at least without being diagnosed as schizophrenics) so how could we know the process by which inspired writings happen? If anything, scriptures sound like here-say of theologians.

So it's the same god with two different interpretations of the divine, sullied further by interpretations of interpretations (hence why no two christians believe the exact same thing and same with no two muslims). Just because people get the ideas wrong doesn't mean that it's a different god altogether, just a different idea.

I guess this leads to the notion of possessing knowledge (we will say any typ e of knowledge, just to take it beyond mere religious or irreligious ideas), - in other words what are th e general principles that one can know that they know something (and not be falling into the trap of delusion or illusion that you are mentioning) - after all you could lay the same statements on anyone who says anything - you could even go to the point of saying "how do you know that those who say they know god, don't know?"

 

[Kendall]

Jesus said he will be (at) the right hand of god, which seems to mean being other than god. Or working for(with) god, not being god.

 

[spidergoat]

Then why does it require the sun to exist? In otherwords the cause and effect are so insperable that seperating them serves nothing practical (outside semantics)

Strictly speaking, it doesn't. If the sun dissapeared right now, we would still enjoy about 8 minutes of sunlight.

 

[lightgigantic]

Jesus said he will be (at) the right hand of god, which seems to mean being other than god. Or working for(with) god, not being god.

In the vedas there is the terms visaya bhagavan (means god that is worshipful as god, possessing full independence as the cause of all causes) and asraya bhagavan (means god in the form of a person worshipping god, thus establishing normative values - this can be either an expansion of god himself or an empowered living entity).

The distinction is semantic - there is no difference in the respect one would offer between visaya or asraya, although one maintains the philosophical distinction

 

[lightgigantic]

Strictly speaking, it doesn't. If the sun dissapeared right now, we would still enjoy about 8 minutes of sunlight.

Thats why "strictly speaking" is just a theoretical concept - your example practically establishes that the sun and the sunshine are inseperable

 

[spidergoat]

All separate existence is semantic, but that's beside the point.

Sunshine does exist right now separately from the sun where it originated. Starlight in many instances is now reaching Earth from such vast distances that the star it came from is gone, exploded in a supernova.

 

[lightgigantic]

spidergoat

All separate existence is semantic, but that's beside the point.

no

oil and water are different by more than semantics

Sunshine does exist right now separately from the sun where it originated. Starlight in many instances is now reaching Earth from such vast distances that the star it came from is gone, exploded in a supernova.

But you never see sunlight that doesn't owe its source to the sun - in fact even if you see sunlight from an extinguished sun, you wouldn't be able to detect that sun was extinguished until the sunlight disappeared anyway



(Its inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference - no matter which alternative you advocate - oneness or difference - the dialouge of establishing and rebuttal can go on for eternity)

 

[Hani]

Monotheism: invented by Akhenaton of Egypt.

Later: adopted by Semite Moses who started Judaism .

Jesus: a Jew born for an unmarried nun who preached forgiveness but never had it for himself...

Christianity: a mixture of eastern religions notably Buddhism which was first prepared by Paul, a Jew, and which kept evolving since.

Islam: a mixture of Judaism and Zoroastrianism created by Arab Muhammad.


And billions of people have given their lives and souls for the ideas of this small bunch of people … amazing!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Monotheism: invented by Akhenaton of Egypt.

Later: adopted by Semite Moses who started Judaism .

Jesus: a Jew born for an unmarried nun who preached forgiveness but never had it for himself...

Christianity: a mixture of eastern religions notably Buddhism which was first prepared by Paul, a Jew, and which kept evolving since.

Islam: a mixture of Judaism and Zoroastrianism created by Arab Muhammad.

And billions of people have given their lives and souls for the ideas of this small bunch of people … amazing!

*************
M*W: Interesting. I agree. Welcome to sciforums.

 

[lightgigantic]

Monotheism: invented by Akhenaton of Egypt.

Later: adopted by Semite Moses who started Judaism .

Jesus: a Jew born for an unmarried nun who preached forgiveness but never had it for himself...

Christianity: a mixture of eastern religions notably Buddhism which was first prepared by Paul, a Jew, and which kept evolving since.

Islam: a mixture of Judaism and Zoroastrianism created by Arab Muhammad.


And billions of people have given their lives and souls for the ideas of this small bunch of people … amazing!

What would be more amazing is if they followed the tentative historical claims of Hani

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar
1 Corinthians 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

So you are wrong to believe that all Christians must be able to do all these things. It was never so, even in the beginning.

I had this verse in mind, as well as a number of others, while I was writing my last post. Where is the other passage that describes those things that will accompany those who believe? I will have to look for it. Anyway, even this scripture promises that their will be some, at least, that have the gift of "working miracles".

humm well that’s the thing. Does the scripture say that their will always be some? Yes the scriptures say that followers of Jesus will perform these signs. and the book of Acts gives accounts of these signs being done, but does it say how long they would be doing them? Jesus said:

Mark 16
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Where is the always? If you strictly read the word you will see there is not indication that these signs would be a permanent thing.

What do you think the signs where for? Entertainment? Do you think the miracles where for the people who where cured? For their material benefit?


I do not think so. Miracles where always done in support of the Gospel message coming to a new population to give authority to the Gospel in the eyes of the virgin community.

Acts 14:3
Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

So the signs where there only to support the message. So if the message is established within a community then one would expect the signs to cease because they where never intended as being for the material benefit of the people who where blessed by them but where intended to support and give supernatural backing to the Words of God.

So if miracles where happening today i would not expect them to be happening only in parts of the world where the Word of God has never been preached.

Oddly enough i have heard of reports of miracles. From India and from some of the south pacific islands in my life time. There was this one funny incident where a islander holding his bible ( A new Christian) came up to a missionary an old woman and asked her to anoint him with oil to cure him of his illness. The woman belonged to a church that believes that the signs where only for the early church and ceased when the Gospel was finally written down.

Anyway she was the oldest missionary there and she was looked upon by this man as the Elder. So feeling embarrassed and cornered she got some vegetable oil and anointed his head placed her hands upon his head and asked God to cure him. As she was half way through asking the man leapt into the air and ran away jumping with glee and praising God for his healing. leaving the missionary dumfounded looking at her oily hands.


Now this account may be true or it may be a made up job or it may be that the man was not healed by a miracle but by the power of his own mind. It does not matter to me one way or the other. I do not need or seek signs. The reason why i believe is because of the message of the Word of God. relying on signs is dangerious in a world full of decievers.

So then, where are these miracle workers today, Adstar. I have never seen any of them anywhere, at anytime. Instead I really find only pretenders, fakers, magicians, deceivers, and outright liers in the Christian community. Sorry!

Why say sorry? I agree there is a lot of fakers/deceivers and such out there. But that is not to discount that there could be real signs being done in some places of the world today. But then again there might be no signs happening today? Either way it does not matter to me because my faith has never been based on signs and wonders and never will.

Originally Posted by Adstar
As for the snake point, I have had 4 close encounters with deadly snakes, Once when i was a little kid a snake (red belly black snake) crawled over my bare feet while i was sitting with my brother in a class house. I was too young to understand how dangerous it was. I have jumped over two deadly snakes and stepped on the tail of a king brown snake that quickly went away. All these snakes could have killed me and they did not. But no i have never been bitten by a snake and i do not intend to go out to get bitten. Its got nothing to do with lack of faith its about not putting the Lord my God to the test

I am glad you were not hurt by any of them! It does indeed seem to have everything to do with faith in the Bible, does it not? If you have faith, the size of a mustard seed you will say to this mountain...

Peace!

Well the funny thing is i was not a Christian at the time. When that snake crawled over my feet i was about 3 and a half years old and i did not have much of a concept of God let alone have any idea about the Messiah Jesus. I think i was about 15 when i had my last close encounter with a deadly snake and i didn't come to accept the Messiah Jesus as my Redeemer until i was around 18. LOL Maybe God was keeping me alive for something Well we will find out sooner or later.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Hi again SetAlpha6.

As i was reading your post something that you said before came back to me. And after i finished the last post i had a go at finding it. It is very interesting in relation to what you are saying now, i give it now so that you will remember.

Quote SetAlpha6 04-19-06 Thread “What am I”

Hi Q! I do not really expect anyone else to believe what happened to my Dad. All I can say is that I know the character of my Dad. I know that for weeks he had a very real physical back problem, he prayed to God in desperation for a healing, in the middle of the night he felt something like a hand touch his back, and immediately after that he got up out of bed completely healed, and he has never had that same problem again. It was a very personal experience for him. No one else will ever be able to really fully believe what happened. You do not need to believe me. I understand that reason and experience automatically make most people reject such a story. That is fine. That still does not necessitate that I reject the reality of what happened to him just because I may not understand it. Thanks

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I have always found it really strange that some Christians call Allah (of Islam, in case you didn't know) a false god and vice versa. Christianity and Islam have the same origins in Judaism... so is it just a difference in philosophy that makes one accuse the other of having a false god? I thought it was all the same God with just a different name.

if you look at the history of islam, "allah" evolved from a pre-islamic arabic moon god (hence the crescent moon), who had a wife & daughters (that's why they took such great offence at the book "Satanic Verses", that reminds people that Mohammad showed his human weakness under pressure). Mohammad welded a mishmash of arabic, Christian & Jewish ideas together & came up with islam (Both Jewish & Christian ideas had penetrated into Arabia, (around Medina, 2 whole tribes were Jewish)). if islam is really from Jewish sources, ask yourself, why islam does not use & incorporate the Old Testament, as Christians do? could it be that allah is a diff god, therefore not compatible with Abraham's God?

 

[S.A.M.]

if you look at the history of islam, "allah" evolved from a pre-islamic arabic moon god (hence the crescent moon), who had a wife & daughters (that's why they took such great offence at the book "Satanic Verses", that reminds people that Mohammad showed his human weakness under pressure). Mohammad welded a mishmash of arabic, Christian & Jewish ideas together & came up with islam (Both Jewish & Christian ideas had penetrated into Arabia, (around Medina, 2 whole tribes were Jewish)). if islam is really from Jewish sources, ask yourself, why islam does not use & incorporate the Old Testament, as Christians do? could it be that allah is a diff god, therefore not compatible with Abraham's God?

Much of the old Testament is already incorporated in the Quran. Surah Ibrahim is the story of Abraham. There are also David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, Mary. Muslims believe in all the Prophets of the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam#Prophets_in_the_Qur.27an

 

[Vega]

Much of the old Testament is already incorporated in the Quran. Surah Ibrahim is the story of Abraham. There are also David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, Mary. Muslims believe in all the Prophets of the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam#Prophets_in_the_Qur.27an

No sweetheart!, Jesus was not a prophet he was the "son of God" That's where your quran does not compute!

 

[Huwy]

same religion, different languages