The christian Bible...

The bottom line is this: if you believe in God, but recognize the Bible has fault, then you are safe.

Absolutely not. If you recognize the bible has fault, then you are NOT a Christian and you certainly are not safe.

The most dangerous person is one who believes in God AND that the Bible is all true.

You are referring to Christians who follow their gods commands and obey the bible, as they are supposed to do.

And I don't want to hear about how God spoke to you either because I read the story in the Bible where Gideon continually doubted it was God he was hearing.

Now you're being a hypocrite. First, you say that the most dangerous person is one who believes the bible to be true and now you quote the bible to support your argument. What's going on here?

Either God doesn't exist, or the Bible is false sometimes. But, no one is qualified to say which parts are true or false. That is the point of this rambling that you did not hear the first time I said it.

You are entirely wrong. YOUR GOD is qualified to say which parts are true or false, and the bible is HIS word, hence it MUST be true, or else your god is a bold-faced liar.

So, which is it? Are you wrong or is your god wrong?
 
There are no gods. I try to follow the ethics of a man called Jesus Christ (mythological or not). I'm not a Christian stereotypically, but literally....maybe.

Sorry pal, you are NOT a Christian at all. Trying to follow ethics does not cut it.
 
"My ex-pastors, who have studied the Bible, disagree with you. Their whole argument is that all of the Bible supports itself. "If you don't understand something, then keep reading...scripture will support itself...""

I think what they are saying is that it is self authenticating. There are objective and subjective aspects to this. For those of us who are believers, we have found an amazing amount of internal consistancy when one reads from Genesis to Revelation with its central theme of the redemption of mankind throughout. Yet when you realize that it was a compilation of books written by around 40 authors over a 1500 year period, this becomes even more suprising. It is either the most carefully crafted through time conspiracy as Acharya and a few other wacko's have suggested, or it bears the marks of divine authorship. Combine this with numerous clear prophecies which have already been fulfilled in minute detail and it is so convincing that even the late Isaac Newton declared its divine authorship unnassailable.

"Now, from my own study, I see what they are saying. But, sometimes the arguments are very weak in the Bible to keep the scripture you have questions about afloat. So, you would say I don't understand it yet. Well, who does?"

The bible is a large book and while the central themes are simple, there are many complexities as well. Do you feel that not understanding everything is a basis for throwing it out?

"Not only does the Bible have a translation problem, but there is no authority living today that can support the writings as truth...either in Genesis or in Revelations."

what do you mean "translation problem"? I disagree that the bible is not defensible as truth. There are numerous "authorities" who defend it daily. Have you read anything by Dr. Gary Habermas or Josh McDowell for example?

"The bottom line is this: if you believe in God, but recognize the Bible has fault, then you are safe."

I am not interested in playing it safe so I will defend the bible as truth. If you are saying that small copyist errors exist in the present documents from which translations are made I will conceed this point, but they are insignificant.

"But, if you believe in God, and demand the Bible is truth because you believe you have something figured out in scripture, you run the risk of pride and prejudice."

You run no such risk. Nor is this a "leap of faith" but rather a baby step of faith greatly supported by the evidence.

"The most dangerous person is one who believes in God AND that the Bible is all true."

this is illogical. Are you saying that this position is the hardest to defend or that believing in the bible makes a person "dangerous"?

"And that is where I realized that if you believe you have it all figured out, I guarauntee you are wrong."

There is a difference between "having it all figured out" and axiomatically accepting the bible as truth. It is impossible to arrive at absolute truth empiricle, one must, at some point, make a committment or remain an agnostic.

"It is too painful for me to have unreasonable and blind faith."

me too! Here is the good news! You don't have to. In fact, the bible condemns such a practice. Blind faith is the faith of the atheist. The bible enjoins the believe to love God with all your MIND. The central message of the NT Church was the objective evidence of a bodily resurrection. The resurrection evidence caused former atheist (now deist) Antony Flew to admit that Christians are "rational" for believing on the evidence for this miracle alone.

"The life is too hard to live to have faith in a silent God because you find yourself lying to yourself."

A silent God? I think he is rather noisy, day to day pouring forth speech through is creation and his Word, the Bible.

"And I don't want to hear about how God spoke to you either because I read the story in the Bible where Gideon continually doubted it was God he was hearing."

When you analyze the atheist argument it is really that they cannot "see any god(s)". Of course, like Gideon, it really wouldn't matter if you could, you would still have to excercise faith! And this story is a demonstration of this fact. The Christian Gods existance is overwhelming.

"If God did that for this man, why not me when I was a believer for many years? There is no excuse that anyone can give, so don't be foolish and say something like "all in God's timing" or "if it's God's will" or "you didn't pray right". All that bullcrap is a man-made excuse. If you believe in God, you believe that he lives (and you think you even feel his presence) and will not let his sheep go astray when they ask for the glory of God's kingdom."

God didn't do this for Gideon to prove his existance, he did it to prove to Gideon that he was directing him. But God normally doesn't do this and it is not necessary. We now have the complete scripture, a wealth of apologetics which support the Bible.

"Either God doesn't exist, or the Bible is false sometimes."

Illogical conclusion. If the bible is false sometimes, the biblical God does not exist.

"But, no one is qualified to say which parts are true or false. That is the point of this rambling that you did not hear the first time I said it."

All of the bible is true, it has been tested in the fire and refined seven times. It can be believed and trusted which is why it says "taste and see that the Lord is good, How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him". You have allowed foolish people to steal away your faith. That is sad.
 
The aforementioned fundamentalist literalist arrives, smashing at other christians for not being,"up to snuff".
 
i mean who can't see through religion? honestly? well sadly enough the answer is...lots of people! and it's both sides. the religious buy it, and the atheists buy it just as much, because it's their arguement. no one wants to have to use their brains, open their mind and their heart. no one wants the truth. they just want to make it through in comfort.


I can see through "religion" which is why I reject it. But I nor you, can see through the claims of Christ, you just *think* you can. You make one good point however which I have stated many times, atheism is self refuting because they must assume to be true what the presume to be false. There are no positive arguments for atheism, but there are numerous arguments for Christian theism.

I see no evidence that you want the truth more than anyone else.
 
There are no positive arguments for atheism, but there are numerous arguments for Christian theism.

There are many arguments for not accepting the claims of Christians or the bible, which would even include the belief of other religions, like Islam, but there is only ONE single argument for Christianity; the bible.
 
I can see through "religion" which is why I reject it. But I nor you, can see through the claims of Christ, you just *think* you can. You make one good point however which I have stated many times, atheism is self refuting because they must assume to be true what the presume to be false. There are no positive arguments for atheism, but there are numerous arguments for Christian theism.

I see no evidence that you want the truth more than anyone else.

how would you? :confused:

to be honest, i really don't *think* all that much about it. i really try not to, as it usually only serves to drive me crazy. who can see what the future is? who can know how it will all come about. most of the things i talk about are the result of messages that i've received. most times i interpret them wrong so i've learned not to really bother anymore. i'm just looking forward to what comes next and enjoying myself, my friends, and loved ones as much as i am able until it does. that's the thing. i've been wrong enough to know that it's a waste of time to do anything besides keep an open mind and an open heart and good intentions as much as possible as anything else will only cause pain.

when i ponder, i think about wwjd kinds of things. how can i spread the love?
 
meh-belief is relative to the believer. WWJD is an awesome example. What I think Jesus would do in a given circumstance might be hugely different from what someone else thinks Jesus would do. Maybe Jesus would lay the holy smack down on an unbeliever, maybe he'd shed a tear for the unbeliever's soul and go on. I don't know.
 
Absolutely not. If you recognize the bible has fault, then you are NOT a Christian and you certainly are not safe.

True, but you missed the point maybe.


You are referring to Christians who follow their gods commands and obey the bible, as they are supposed to do.
Yes I am referring to them. They are ethical Christians. But, I wouldn't necessarily say that means they are ethical humans. If they follow man's version of gods commands, are they following god's commands?


Now you're being a hypocrite. First, you say that the most dangerous person is one who believes the bible to be true and now you quote the bible to support your argument. What's going on here?
I am using the Bible against anyone who uses the Bible that might have some fancy scripture they conjure up, just as I would use a Dictionary against anyone who used a Dictionary.

You are entirely wrong. YOUR GOD is qualified to say which parts are true or false, and the bible is HIS word, hence it MUST be true, or else your god is a bold-faced liar.
Do you actually read my posts, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD

I entertain the idea like I would a fairy tale or say, Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings." I like to know where the stuff is coming from, and I believe there is truth to life living contained in all nonfiction and fiction books. Case and point: "The Golden Rule" is widely accepted among all decent folks "do unto others as you would have done to you."

Am I open to proof of the myth of god? Sure, because I take an agnostic point of view.

So, which is it? Are you wrong or is your god wrong?

Heh, don't know. I actually hope I'm wrong and there is a God, and if there is I would ask him why did he curse me with reason. If only I could believe blindly. But, I'm not pretending anymore like I used to. If there is a god, let himself step forward so that I can choose to follow straight up.
 
jayleew-and therein lies faith. Belief with no proof. It's a gamble I'm the first to say it is. But I like Pascal's thought-If I'm wrong, what have I lost?
 
Sorry pal, you are NOT a Christian at all. Trying to follow ethics does not cut it.

K, i'm not a Christian. I believe I am not perfect, but I try to be a decent human being and care for others without prejudice...just as the Bible teaches. Sure, I can get a similar set of ethics from other philosophy. But, I grew up with this set of ethics, so I don't want to change. There is no need for change. I'm sorry if it offends you that I choose to follow the ethics taught in the Bible, but that is my choice.
 
jayleew-and therein lies faith. Belief with no proof. It's a gamble I'm the first to say it is. But I like Pascal's thought-If I'm wrong, what have I lost?

I accept Pascal's central argument out of context.

Things lost:
Time (depending on how much you devote to god).
Fun (for every bit of entertainment there is always a Chrisitian available to judge you a sinner for partaking...even in art (music, movies, books)

I think Christians scrutinize Christians more than anyone. Sad.

Sleep (Sunday mornings are tough to give up because of the week and if you give up Saturday nights for those churches that have......nah!...file this under fun)
Money (charity is a good thing, but regular donations to pay for the pastor is what I'm talking about)

Anyone care to help brainstorm? I'm sure there are some good ones I'm leaving out....let's be serious about this please!!
 
Hammy, I will be the first to encourage to to have faith....but, think about why you believe...I don't know you, so I don't know...but, just make sure you are not believing because of peer pressure or because you are tricking yourself. Those that believe in God should tell me, "because God proved himself to me without any doubt."

Those words might be encouraging to me if I knew they were true. But, I'm sorry I will never believe until God has proven himself to me. What good am I to god if I don't believe without a shadow of a doubt. I pity the fools who are lost in their faith without reason.
 
jayleew-I don't tithe, or go to church for that matter. Time? I spend way more time on SF than I do considering God. Fun? Even Paul said that,"in christ we are free". I don't try to be particularly useful to God. I just blunder about, and sometimes someone will ask a probing JC question, and I just happen to have blundered into them. I think of christianity as a bit of all-spice for my life. Just makes it a bit tastier. I understand what you are saying, and I respect it, though. :)
 
Is Q still just yelling and screaming? Why do any of you folks even bother with him? He's like 12 years old; far too young to be involved in a conversation like this.
 
The Christian Bible offers up so much goodness. It is thick enough to prop up a sofa that has a missing leg. You can also cut out entire sections and hide anything you want between its covers like drugs, guns or booze. It is heavy enough to use as a thrown weapon. Helps to have one in view if you're trying to score points with any Xian girl you might want to bag. Carry it openly and read it out loud on any public transport vehicle and you will have lots of room. Prisoners should carry it in with them for parole meetings. Other uses include paperweight, coaster, leaf press, emergency toilet tissue, conversation piece. a prop for beggars and when dropped carefully from the right height it will even flatten a mouse as well as other household pests.
 
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