The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

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Violent Chimps​

During a series of genocidal massacres in Rwanda and Burundi that at one point left 10,000 human bodies floating ashore on Lake Victoria, a Harvard anthropologist traveled to war-weary Central Africa to investigate the origins of human violence. But instead of studying the fighting Hutu and Tutsi tribes, professor of anthropology Richard Wrangham plunged into the "time machine" of the rainforests to examine Homo sapiens' closest genetic relatives, the chimpanzees and pygmy chimpanzees, or bonobo apes.

In a new book, Demonic Males (Houghton Mifflin), which Wrangham wrote with science writer Dale Peterson, he reveals how he found a glimmer of hope that humanity could reduce its violence and overcome its five-million-year rap sheet of murder and war. Wrangham bases his optimism on the discovery that bonobos create peaceful societies in which males and females share power--while the biologically similar chimpanzees live in patriarchal groups in which males regularly rape, beat, kill, and sometimes even drink the blood of their own kind.

...

Although bonobo males are occasionally aggressive, they are usually discouraged from killing or raping by tight-knit bands of females that gang up on and attack aggressive males. The glue for these closely bonded groups of females is regular female-to-female, missionary-position sex, Wrangham writes. Such female-to-female sexual bonding is thought to be unique in the nonhuman animal world.

Wrangham avoids drawing close parallels between bonobos and human beings. He doesn't believe, for example, that lesbianism is the answer to human warfare. Instead, he takes a broader look at the species' behavior patterns, seeing female bonding and alliance-building in general as a weapon against the dominance of violent males. "I believe that Fyodor Dostoevsky got it right in The Brothers Karamazov, when he wrote that we all have a demon in us," Wrangham says. "And I can only hope that by understanding this, we can reduce this demon a little bit."​

http://harvardmagazine.com/1997/01/right.chimp.html

Interesting article - just sayin'...

Yes it is a very good article. And this has something to do with another animal using sex to terrorise and harm others?

What it shows is that female bonobos use sex to bond with each other. Not to terrorise and harm others.

I mean sure, there may be some out there in the world who see lesbian sex as harming others, but I am fairly certain you are too educated for that, correct?

In the complete absence of any biological component to the rape phenomenon, I'm curious - why are women twice as likely to get pregnant when raped vs engaging in consensual sex? Even after factoring out use of birth control, etc.:



Makes one wonder...

Not really.

Why does rape result in increased risk of pregnancy? This remains an open question. The Gottschalls reject some possibilities. These include the idea that rape induces ovulation, (copulation does stimulate the release of an egg in some species), that rapists have more virile sperm, and that rapists possess a special capacity to detect women who are ovulating. They do toss out a couple of conjectures they consider reasonable. The first is that rapists target women who are particularly fertile based on factors such as beauty and age. The second is that women unconsciously "broadcast cues about their ovulatory status that men are capable of registering and interpreting." These hypothetical unconscious cues could be physiological (e.g. body odor, subtle changes in skin tone) or behavioral. To their credit, however, the authors admit that there is little evidence to support their conjectures.

When even the authors of the studies about the prevalence of pregnancies in rape victims dismiss a biological cue because there is so little evidence to support it, it doesn't really make you wonder.






billvon said:
However, a woman should use common sense and not marry violent, irresponsible and/or criminal men. Fortunately most make such sensible decisions - which is why that particular bit of sense is, in fact, common. This, of course, does not excuse rape.
Every single woman I know of who married an abusive man, had no idea he would abuse them. I know several of these men from before they married them. There was no sign of violence, even anger, no sign of even controlling behaviour.. no sign whatsoever that 1 - 10 years down the track, their husband was going to start beating them to a pulp. In just about all cases, these guys were quite literally perfect. Polite, calm, quick to please, very romantic, very loving and understanding. The same applies with male victims I know who were/are in abusive relationships. You do realise they exist, yes?

At last 5 of these abusive spouses started to abuse their wives after they started cheating on them.

It is a common misconception that there are always signs beforehand. Unless the woman (or man, since you know, men are also victims of domestic violence) is a trained psychologist, trained to recognise and see these signs, then the victim has very little chance of being able to identify it.

Other common sense issues:

A woman should use common sense and not leave her guns lying around where anyone can access them. Fortunately most people make such sensible decisions. This, of course, does not excuse criminals who would use those guns to kill her.

A woman should use common sense and not wander around the highway when drunk. Fortunately most people make the sensible decision not to do that. This, of course, does not excuse someone who sees her and decides to ram her.

A woman should use common sense and not carry her money hanging out of her back pocket. Fortunately most people make the sensible decision to not do that. This, of course, does not excuse someone who steals her money from her.

A woman should use common sense and not leave her keys in the ignition in public parking lots. Fortunately most people make the sensible decision to not do that. This, of course, does not excuse someone who steals her car.
Which has what to do with rape?

I really like how you keep focus on the woman who should use her common sense. Men and children of all ages? Naw, this doesn't apply to them. Only women are supposed to just know.. spidey senses.. rapedar!

How is a woman to know that the man she has known and trusted for years is going to rape her one day? How is a woman to know and what kind of common sense requirement should women have, when it's her husband who one day out of the blue, decides to rape her? What about those raped by a parent or sibling? Or boyfriend? Friend? Uncle? Neighbour?

See, these common sense rape prevention strategies always, and I mean always, deliberately ignore that the majority of rapes are committed by men and women known to the rapist. Most are in a very close relationship with their rapist prior to the rape. I know, I get it, you're just one of those people who believe that women just know these things, that they can read the signs.

I know you believe that women (and men and children - don't forget, men, women and children are raped, not just women) have a sort of 'rapedar', an inbuilt radar that can somehow or other pick out who is her/his potential rapist and as such, she/he should use common sense amongst such men.. Sadly, people do not have such 'rapedars'. We just wish we did.
 
Yes it is a very good article. And this has something to do with another animal using sex to terrorise and harm others?

What it shows is that female bonobos use sex to bond with each other. Not to terrorise and harm others.

I mean sure, there may be some out there in the world who see lesbian sex as harming others, but I am fairly certain you are too educated for that, correct?
Cherry picking again Bells? Why? I mean you are correct in what you say here, but please note that this is asserted in the context of "as opposed to chimpanzees".

Your response is anticipated though, not only here on this board but also in the wider world:

The science that allows us to understand sexual coercion by males is drawn directly from Darwin’s own work on sexual selection. There is, however, another layer here, because of course one cannot talk about the evolution of sexual aggression in male primates without pondering the social consequences of the same behavior in our own species. Are domestic violence and sexual assault simply human homologues of the same conduct seen in chimpanzees and baboons? Many social scientists bristle at this suggestion, with its invocation of biological determinism. This volume’s authors, many of them female researchers, do an excellent job of sensitively exploring the boundary between phenotype and environment that is the stuff of which human behavior is made.

From Despicable, Yes, but Not Inexplicable by Craig Stanford - a review of SEXUAL COERCION IN PRIMATES AND HUMANS: An Evolutionary Perspective on Male Aggression Against Females Edited by Martin N. Muller and Richard W. Wrangham. xii + 483 pp. Harvard University Press, 2009 found in American Scientist SCIENTISTS' NIGHTSTAND > November-December 2009 > Bookshelf Detail

Why, pray tell, are you so averse to "exploring the boundary between phenotype and environment that is the stuff of which human behavior is made"? Not everyone who does so is automatically a misogynist or rape apologist.

It would seem that rape is either a product of environment, or genetics, or both. I take it you fall strongly in the camp of social influences, to the exclusion of all other factors. Personally, I'm not wholly invested in either side of the nature vs nurture debate. I tend to believe that elements of both are present in our decision making and actions. OTH, if not environment or genetics, what then? Our soul? Demons and angels? What?

Not really.

Why does rape result in increased risk of pregnancy? This remains an open question. The Gottschalls reject some possibilities. These include the idea that rape induces ovulation, (copulation does stimulate the release of an egg in some species), that rapists have more virile sperm, and that rapists possess a special capacity to detect women who are ovulating. They do toss out a couple of conjectures they consider reasonable. The first is that rapists target women who are particularly fertile based on factors such as beauty and age. The second is that women unconsciously "broadcast cues about their ovulatory status that men are capable of registering and interpreting." These hypothetical unconscious cues could be physiological (e.g. body odor, subtle changes in skin tone) or behavioral. To their credit, however, the authors admit that there is little evidence to support their conjectures.

When even the authors of the studies about the prevalence of pregnancies in rape victims dismiss a biological cue because there is so little evidence to support it, it doesn't really make you wonder.
"Dismiss" may be a bit strong, I find it more likely that they propose "reasonable conjectures" - you know, since the article states "They do toss out a couple of conjectures they consider reasonable." They are also reasonable enough to admit, to their credit, that they don't know. Which others would do well to emulate, IMHO.
 
Kittamaru said:
The problem in the argument about other species using rape as a tool is simple - we have to consider that we, as human beings, are not of those other species. Why does it matter if/why/how a dolphin/chimpanzee/elephant/what have you rapes another of its own species... we're not those animals. We are human beings... we have laws and rules and regulations... those other animals really don't. So why is it, even in the face of almost certain punishment, some humans decide to rape others?

The comparative method is extremely useful. It uses natural variation and disparity to understand the patterns of life at all levels—from genes to communities—and the critical role of organisms in ecosystems.

Comparative biology: What we didn't know about penis anatomy


Kittamaru said:
If it were "all about sex"... why does this happen so often?

No one said that it was "all about sex". They’re saying that the sexual dimension of rape is painfully obvious, err!

"Given that rapists, in most reported cases, are sexually aroused and often reach orgasm, and that some convicted rapists admit to erotic motives, it is hard to disagree with Thornhill's and Palmer's claim that rape is at least partly a sexual act. But this claim is hardly new. Indeed, the sexual dimension of rape is painfully obvious. But Thornhill and Palmer assert that "academic feminists and sociologists" have consistently denied any sexual motivation for rape, insisting instead that "rape is not about sex, but about violence and power." It is true that in recent decades the discussion of rape has been dominated by such notions, though one must remember that they originated not as scientific propositions but as political slogans deemed necessary to reverse popular misconceptions about rape."

http://www.uic.edu/labs/igic/papers/others/Coyne_2000.pdf
 
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Cherry picking again Bells? Why? I mean you are correct in what you say here, but please note that this is asserted in the context of "as opposed to chimpanzees".

Your response is anticipated though, not only here on this board but also in the wider world:

The science that allows us to understand sexual coercion by males is drawn directly from Darwin’s own work on sexual selection. There is, however, another layer here, because of course one cannot talk about the evolution of sexual aggression in male primates without pondering the social consequences of the same behavior in our own species. Are domestic violence and sexual assault simply human homologues of the same conduct seen in chimpanzees and baboons? Many social scientists bristle at this suggestion, with its invocation of biological determinism. This volume’s authors, many of them female researchers, do an excellent job of sensitively exploring the boundary between phenotype and environment that is the stuff of which human behavior is made.

From Despicable, Yes, but Not Inexplicable by Craig Stanford - a review of SEXUAL COERCION IN PRIMATES AND HUMANS: An Evolutionary Perspective on Male Aggression Against Females Edited by Martin N. Muller and Richard W. Wrangham. xii + 483 pp. Harvard University Press, 2009 found in American Scientist SCIENTISTS' NIGHTSTAND > November-December 2009 > Bookshelf Detail

Why, pray tell, are you so averse to "exploring the boundary between phenotype and environment that is the stuff of which human behavior is made"? Not everyone who does so is automatically a misogynist or rape apologist.

It would seem that rape is either a product of environment, or genetics, or both. I take it you fall strongly in the camp of social influences, to the exclusion of all other factors. Personally, I'm not wholly invested in either side of the nature vs nurture debate. I tend to believe that elements of both are present in our decision making and actions. OTH, if not environment or genetics, what then? Our soul? Demons and angels? What?

"Dismiss" may be a bit strong, I find it more likely that they propose "reasonable conjectures" - you know, since the article states "They do toss out a couple of conjectures they consider reasonable." They are also reasonable enough to admit, to their credit, that they don't know. Which others would do well to emulate, IMHO.
Cherry picking? You don't think telling me something I already know about bonobo's that has nothing really to do with this discussion is cherry picking? What? You're telling me that some animals use sex to bond or that some species use forced sex to breed? Okay. I already know this. What of it? My question was a simple one and it keeps being skirted around and not answered. There is no proof that bonobos use sex to terrorise or cause harm. The only species that do that are humans. Unless of course someone is going to argue that rape does not terrorise or cause harm? No, no one is because we all know that rape by its very nature is harmful and causes terror for the victim. No victim enjoys being raped. So unless you are going to try to argue that rape is somehow beneficial for females, like sex is beneficial amongst bonobos, what exactly are you trying to say with your references to bonobos?

One of the biggest ironies of GeoffP's complaint, for example about the "social sciences" when it comes to this subject is that he has been the only one referring to the work of psychologists who have tried to argue for biological triggers for rape. Geneticists, biologists disagree because they know there is absolutely no evidence in our genetic make up to support this theory. As I noted in a previous post, we know what genes cause us to over eat, but we cannot find or identify a gene that would support the contention that males evolved to rape and now are evolving away from raping because of the social beliefs that human societies have about rape?

The idea or argument for such biological triggers also completely and utterly ignores and removes male and child victims from the equation. It also ignores and disregards the very simple fact that women also rape and it disregards same sex rape. If rape was beneficial in the past, to spread one's seed, as they say, then raping children and raping the sex that cannot have children and raping the same sex conveys absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

Believe me, Randwolf, I would give everything I own for there to be a biological trigger for rape. Because it would mean that if one existed, then we could, theoretically, prevent men, women and children from raping by suppressing those triggers.

As I have asked multiple times, show me one animal aside from human beings, who use sex to terrorise and harm others.

I'll give you a hint, there is none. Only humans do that. So why are humans the only animal species that uses sex to terrorise and cause harm? There is no evolutionary benefit to cause harm to a female who has the potential to carry your off-spring (just to discuss male rapist/female victim). Absolutely none. Harm and stress can lead to miscarriage. If she was raped, she could end up abandoning it or killing it. In the US, for example, of a sample group of young women who fell pregnant from rape, 50% chose to abort and just over 11% miscarried with just under 6% who chose to put it up for adoption. Only 32.2% chose to keep the child. With around 32% of rape victims finding out they were pregnant in the 2nd trimester (and abortion access being what it is), even without that, 32.2% deciding to keep the child and raise it is not a great rate, especially from an evolutionary standpoint. And competing males would probably simply kill the off-spring from rape from an evolutionary standpoint. Because males would not want to or bother to defend a juvenile that was not biologically his from an evolutionary stand point, and as we have seen in some primates, they will kill the juveniles and off-spring of any other competing or other male, to allow them to breed with the female a lot sooner. So rape, in that sense, conveys little benefit for the female or her off-spring. Then of course we have the issues of social monogamy and the many theories that about as to why we are somewhat socially monogamous and what evolutionary benefits it conveyed.

So no Randwolf, it's not a matter that I am just against it. It's simply a matter that there is no proof for it. At all. And also because it disregards the majority of rape victims are not females able to give birth to off-spring and also because it discounts same sex rape, rape of children and the elderly.
 
Common Sense or Conventional Wisdom?

Mahoney and Williams (1998) found:

Research and policy recommendations on wife rape represent a minor focus of the literature on domestic violence or on rape in general, notwithstanding the convincing evidence that wife rape is frequent and damaging. Two of the best studies to date that have investigated the prevalence of wife rape in representative samples of women (Finkelhor & Yllo, 1985; Russell, 1990) have found thatbetween 10-14% of ever-married or co-habitating women have been raped at least once by their partner. In addition Russell (1990) found that among ever-married women, husband-/ex-husband-perpetrated rape was 4 times more common than stranger-perpetrated rape. (2)

The Bureau of Justice Statistics (2013) included, among its findings:

• The majority of sexual violence against females involved someone the victim knew. In 2005-10, 78 percent of sexual violence involved an offender who was a family member, intimate partner, friend or acquaintance.

• About 38 percent of sexual violence was committed by a friend or acquaintance, 34 percent by an intimate partner (former or current spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend) and 6 percent by a relative or family member. Strangers committed about 22 percent of all sexual violence, a percentage that remained unchanged from 1994 to 2010.


The full monty: Click image for the full March, 2013 report.

What common sense advice does one offer someone deciding whether or not to undertake an endeavor with a better than one in three chance of resulting in rape?

Furthermore, the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (2003) reported that women raped by their intimate partners in the prior twelve months, according to the National Violence Against Women Survey, experience an average of 1.6 victimizations per year. Basic physical assault worked out to nearly three and a half beatings per year (19-20).

Say what you want about precautions, but what advice does your infinite protection advocacy have regarding the two most common sources of rape against women?

Number one? Friends.

Number two? Intimate partners.

And, furthermore, you can say what you want about marrying violent, irresponsible, or criminal men, but that is an ineffably stupid line.

It's hard to figure whether to wonder about what you think goes on in a person's mind when they are, say, young and impetuous and in love, or focus instead on the insane prejudice that a woman can always see that violent, irresponsible criminality. I mean, how does a woman tell that her college graduate, financially mobile, go-getter of a fiancée isn't going to go all Jekyll and Hyde on her a couple years down the road?

As far as I can tell, there is no allele for clairvoyance on the X chromosome.

In the end, I would remind that there are two main contexts for the idea of what constitutes common sense. One is fairly logical idea equation:

If R[sub]r[/sub] > 1:3, then ....​

That is to say, if one's risk of being raped for having male acquaintances or intimate partners exceed one in three, one might reasonably suggest common sense suggests thinking thrice before a woman should take on any male acquaintances or intimate partners.

The other context for common sense is something akin to conventional wisdom, whereby House Majority Leader Cantor's seat in Congress was expected to be safe from a primary challenge, we would definitely find unquestionable evidence of a significant WMD program in Iraq, and compromising by doing what the other person wants is refusing to compromise. Like syllogisms, the factual accuracy of this sort of common sense is irrelevant, as the sensibility depends entirely on the presuppositions.

Consider Louisiana, where they passed a voucher law that gave money to religious schools. When they found out that included Muslims, some Republicans regretted their votes; apparently, common sense did not inform them that Islam is a religion.

What common sense are you referring to? It would seem you're tending toward some assertion of conventional wisdom.

No, seriously, one in six? Would you play "Russian Roulette"? Okay, let's just point it at your toe, though. Still, no? Why not? Common sense?

What if the odds are better than one in three? What does "common sense" tell you?
____________________

Notes:

Mahoney, Patricia, & Williams, Linda M. (1998). "Sexual Assault in Marriage: Prevalence, Consequences, and Treatment of Wife Rape". Partner Violence: A 20-Year Literature Review and Synthesis. NCDSV.org. June 16, 2014. http://www.ncdsv.org/images/nnfr_partnerviolence_a20-yearliteraturereviewandsynthesis.pdf

Bureau of Justice Statistics. (2013). "Over 60 Percent Decline in Sexual Violence Against Females from 1995 to 2010". BJS.gov. June 16, 2014. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/fvsv9410pr.cfm

Planty, Michael, Langton, Lynn, Krebs, Christopher, Berzofsky, Marcus, & Smiley-McDonald, Hope. (2013). Female Victims of Sexual Violence, 1994-2010. BJS.gov. June 16, 2014. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. (2003). Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States. Atlanta: Centers for Disease Control. RAINN.org. June 16, 2014. https://www.rainn.org/pdf-files-and-other-documents/Public-Policy/Issues/IPVBook-Final-Feb18.pdf


(Note: So much for modified APA. Yig, that sucks.)
 
"It all feels very rational, and in some ways it is. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t in the service of Darwinian ends. To a layperson, it may seem natural that the evolution of reflective self-conscious brains would liberate us from the base dictates of our evolutionary past. To an evolutionary biologist, what seems natural is roughly the opposite: that human brains evolved not to insulate is from the mandate to survive and reproduce, but to follow it more effectively, if more pliably; that as we evolve from a species whose males whisper sweet nothings, the whispering will be governed by the same logic as the abduction—it is a means of manipulating females to male ends, and its form serves this function."—The Moral Animal: Why We Are the Way We Are by Robert Wright

I don't know. It sounds good, though. :shrug:

Nevertheless...

"Academic feminists and sociologists" have consistently denied any sexual motivation for rape, insisting instead that "rape is not about sex, but about violence and power."

"It is true that in recent decades the discussion of rape has been dominated by such notions, though one must remember that they originated not as scientific propositions but as political slogans deemed necessary to reverse popular misconceptions about rape."—Jerry Coyne
 
Believe me, Randwolf, I would give everything I own for there to be a biological trigger for rape.
Trigger? I'm not sure about that, but there may very well be a biologic influence at play. For that matter, the ability to "terrorize" others may be a survival trait. Do you disagree? Might not that ability come in handy in certain circumstances?

As I have asked multiple times, show me one animal aside from human beings, who use sex to terrorise and harm others.
Define "terrorise". The dictionary says: "to cause (someone) to be extremely afraid".

Strictly speaking the "someone" part might make this a wholly human construct - thus not applicable to any other species. That seems an extremely pedantic interpretation but if that's what you're going with, fine, you prevail. However, a slightly looser definition would put your challenge in jeopardy, unless forced copulation does not raise "extreme fear" in an unwilling participant, whether that participant be human, chimpanzee or mallard. Is that what you're saying? Do you believe other species to be capable of experiencing extreme fear?

By the way, don't mallards forcibly copulate with other male mallards?

Oh yeah, I guess they do:

Ducks behave pretty badly, it seems. It is not so much that up to one in 10 of mallard couples are homosexual - no one would raise an eyebrow in the liberal Netherlands - but they regularly indulge in "attempted rape flights" when they pursue other ducks with a view to forcible mating. "Rape is a normal reproductive strategy in mallards," explains Mr Moeliker​

Moreover, mallards are necrophiliacs:

during which time (75 minutes) I made some photographs and the mallard almost continuously copulated his dead congener.

I wonder what the biological imperative is in these cases? Has to be one, right? Certainly the mallards aren't out to "terrorize" but rather are trying to... Ermmm... Well, I don't know the goal there, do you?

Point is, a lot of strange things occur in the sex life of animals. Last I checked, for all our supposed sophistication humans are still classified as animals, no? The goal is to transcend those animalistic and atavistic tendencies. One way to do that is to understand why these tendencies exist in the first place. If you "would give everything [you] own for there to be a biological trigger for rape" perhaps some day you will be rewarded and one will be found. Meanwhile, I'm not ruling out a genetic component, whether that component is there to "terrorize" or to "copulate" or both.
 
The comparative method is extremely useful. It uses natural variation and disparity to understand the patterns of life at all levels—from genes to communities—and the critical role of organisms in ecosystems.

Comparative biology: What we didn't know about penis anatomy




No one said that it was "all about sex". They’re saying that the sexual dimension of rape is painfully obvious, err!

"Given that rapists, in most reported cases, are sexually aroused and often reach orgasm, and that some convicted rapists admit to erotic motives, it is hard to disagree with Thornhill's and Palmer's claim that rape is at least partly a sexual act. But this claim is hardly new. Indeed, the sexual dimension of rape is painfully obvious. But Thornhill and Palmer assert that "academic feminists and sociologists" have consistently denied any sexual motivation for rape, insisting instead that "rape is not about sex, but about violence and power." It is true that in recent decades the discussion of rape has been dominated by such notions, though one must remember that they originated not as scientific propositions but as political slogans deemed necessary to reverse popular misconceptions about rape."

http://www.uic.edu/labs/igic/papers/others/Coyne_2000.pdf
Considering how much Thornhill and Palmer whine about feminists when it comes to rape... They have been discredited in every single way imaginable by scientists. We are still expected to take these buffoons seriously?

A theory that rape has its origin in evolutionary biology is seriously flawed.

By Jerry A. Coyne and Andrew Berry

Jerry A. Coyne is in the Department of Ecology and Evolution, The University of Chicago, 1101 East 57 Street, Chicago, Illinois 60637, USA.

Andrew Berry is at the Museum of Comparative Zoology Labs, Harvard University, 26 Oxford St, Cambridge MA 02138 USA


In A Natural History of Rape, Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer argue that rape is an adaptation - that it has evolved to increase the reproductive success of men who would otherwise have little sexual access to women. Their analysis of rape then forms the basis of a protracted sales pitch for evolutionary psychology, the latest incarnation of sociobiology: not only do the authors believe that this should be the explanatory model of choice in the human behavioural sciences, but they also want to see its insights incorporated into social policy. Thus, in a single slim volume, Thornhill and Palmer give us both an inflammatory analysis of a sensitive topic, and a manifesto outlining evolutionary biology's future conquest of the social sciences.

In the furore that has greeted the book's publication, the scientific evidence for the authors' arguments has been largely ignored. However, it is here that we must start. If their specific claims about rape are not scientifically sound, then the authors' grand vision of the centrality of natural selection to every aspect of our behaviour collapses as well. In their media appearances, Thornhill and Palmer cloak themselves in the authority of science, implying that the controversy over their ideas is purely political, and that the underlying biology is unimpeachable. This is a serious misrepresentation.

What persuasiveness the book does possess rests on an ingenious rhetorical trick. The authors lay out two alternative evolutionary hypotheses: rape is either a "specific adaptation" (i.e., natural selection explicitly promoted the act) or a "by-product of evolution" (i.e., there was no direct selection for rape; rather it is an accidental product of selection for, say, male promiscuity and aggression). Readers unconvinced by the specific-adaptation argument therefore find themselves embracing by default the by-product alternative. Either way, Thornhill and Palmer claim a convert.

But what, in behavioural terms, is an evolutionary by-product? Everything that is not a specific adaptation. Thus playing the piano - an activity unlikely to have been instrumental in the evolution of the brain - is an evolutionary by-product, because it depends on a brain that was itself produced by natural selection. If every human behaviour can be seen as a by-product of evolution, then the by-product idea is useless, for a theory that explains everything is merely a truism. The claims that rape and playing the piano are by-products of evolution are claims without content.

It is not surprising, then, that A Natural History of Rape is a largely an argument for the specific-adaptation theory. Thornhill and Palmer's evidence, however, either 1) fails to support their case, 2) is presented in a misleading and/or biased way, or 3) equally supports alternative explanations. Here is one example of each of these problems:

First, Thornhill and Palmer make much of the claim that rape victims tend to be in their prime reproductive years, suggesting that reproduction is indeed a central part of the rapist's agenda. But the data they present contradicts this claim. In a 1992 survey that attempted to deal with the substantial statistical problem of unreported rape, 29% of U.S. rape victims were under the age of 11. As that age group comprises approximately 15% of the female population, under-11s were over-represented among rape victims by a factor of two. So invested are the authors in their specific-adaptation hypothesis that they try to explain this nonadaptive anomaly by noting that the data do not indicate the "proportion of the victims under 11 who were exhibiting secondary sexual traits."[p.72] Further, "the increasingly early age of menarche in Western females contributes to the enhanced sexual attractiveness of some females under 12." [p.72]. In the end, the hopelessness of this special pleading merely draws attention to the failure of the data to support the authors' hypothesis.

Second, Thornhill and Palmer contend that, based on sociological studies, female rape victims of reproductive age are more traumatized by the experience than are women either too old or too young to reproduce. The rationale is that reproductive-age women are in effect mourning the lost opportunity for mate choice which rape, in the worldview of evolutionary psychology, represents to them. The authors see this apparent heterogeneity in the reaction to rape as supporting their claims about the reproductive essence of the act.

In checking the cited reference (one of whose authors was Thornhill himself), we find that the original work's conclusions differ critically from those given in the book. According to Thornhill and Palmer, the cited study shows post-rape trauma to be higher in reproductive-age women (12-44) than in the two other age classes (under 12 and over 44). In fact, the data show that the only heterogeneity in response to rape comes from the under-12 class: the over-44 class is just as traumatized as the 12-44 one.

However, when the over-44 and under-12 classes are pooled, the under-12 effect of less trauma makes this combined "nonreproductive" class significantly different from the 12-44 one. The authors have used statistical sleight of hand to buttress their argument. And we need hardly point out that the relative lack of trauma in the youngest age group may be unrelated to sexual immaturity: rather, children may be less able to express their feelings. Furthermore, the original study's data are questionable because much of the assessment of trauma in the under-12 class was necessarily based on reports of the child's caregivers rather than of the child herself. Direct comparison of observer-reported and self-reported data on such a subjective issue is extremely problematic.

Finally, the fact that women of reproductive age experience more violence during rape than do older women or children - suggesting that they fight back harder - is taken by Thornhill and Palmer as evidence that they have more to defend. There is, they contend, more at stake - reproduction, no less-for reproductive-age women. While it is true that reproductive women who resist rape may be partly motivated by the fear of unwanted conception, it is also true that such women, at the peak of bodily strength, are most physically capable of fighting back. Children cannot fight off a full-grown man, and older women may also find resistance beyond them. In exclusively championing their preferred explanation of a phenomenon, even when it is less plausible than alternatives, the authors reveal their true colours. A Natural History of Rape is advocacy, not science.

We have highlighted just three examples of the book's flawed arguments. There are many more. The evidence that rape is a specific adaptation is weak at best. In keeping with the traditions established early in the evolution of sociobiology, Thornhill and Palmer's evidence comes down to a series of untestable "just-so" stories.

Sociobiological approaches to human behaviour may yield interesting insights. But it is disciplinary hubris - a longstanding feature of evolutionary psychology- to suppose that natural selection underlies our every action. Because of the central role of reproduction in Darwin's theory, sexual behaviour is in principle a good candidate for fruitful sociobiological study, but even here it usually fails dismally. The most imaginative and committed sociobiologist would be hard pressed to show that masturbation, sadomasochism, bestiality, and pornography's enthusiasm for high heels are all direct adaptations. In its insistence on forcing everything into the straitjacket of adaptation, evolutionary psychology offers a woefully incomplete perspective on human behaviour. Thornhill and Palmer have inadvertently revealed just how deficient that perspective is.




What a shame Thornhill and Palmer were not scientific in how they applied science in their book..

Moreover, just because we cannot experimentally test evolutionary hypotheses on humans like we can on scorpion flies does not validate the sorts of “hypothesis testing” by survey data and speculation in which Thornhill and Palmer engage. For examples, among their proposed “rape adaptations” are “psychological mechanisms that motivate men who lack sexual access to females (or who lack sufficient resources) to rape” (p. 65) and “a victim-preference mechanism designed … to maximize the reproductive benefits of rape” (p. 70). As support, they state that “rape is disproportionately committed by men with lower socioeconomic status” (p. 67), although occasional rape by “high status men with sexual access to females” complicates things. But they fail to justify assigning men to categories of relative “sexual access” based on socioeconomic status, sidestep questions about reporting bias, and ignore crucially important and hotly contested political influences on definitions of “rape” and on the willingness of legal authorities to accept women’s claims of rape. Lacking data on “reproductive benefits”, they argue that the age distribution of victims (e.g., highest rates for 16 to 24-year-olds) points towards “adaptations.” However, if men’s minds are designed to target maximally fertile women, why should 29 percent of the victims in one survey have been under 11?

Gillum, like Thornhill and Palmer, too quickly equates forced copulations in non-humans with rape. How sexual coercion influences male reproductive success in species like scorpion flies, mallards and orangutans is unclear. Surely we should not argue that men and scorpion flies share evolved psychological mechanisms. Why, then, call forced copulations in scorpion flies “rape”? As the rape prevention workers whom Gillum criticizes rightly argue (“Why we can’t divorce culture from rape,” 9/22), rape involves power relationships, violence and usurpation of control over women’s bodies by men in uniquely human cultural contexts. Asserting that arguments grounded in this uniqueness are inevitably ideologically motivated and biased is itself an ideological act: It fallaciously presumes that biological arguments are inevitably politically neutral and objective.


Then again, Thornhill and Palmer argue that only a certain group of rape victims are traumatised by rape. That it was only women of child bearing age who were truly traumatised.

In an e-mail response to Coyne's objection, Thornhill and Palmer said the information about trauma in over-44 women was included in a study cited in their book. Yet the book's main text omits any mention of high trauma in older women, saying only that "reproductive-age victims suffered significantly more psychological trauma than non-reproductive-age rape victims."

And we are supposed to take them seriously?

I'll pass thanks. Especially when you factor in just how dodgy they were in how they presented science.
 
Moreover, mallards are necrophiliacs: during which time (75 minutes) I made some photographs and the mallard almost continuously copulated his dead congener.

I wonder what the biological imperative is in these cases? Has to be one, right? Certainly the mallards aren't out to "terrorize" but rather are trying to... Ermmm... Well, I don't know the goal there, do you?

Well, a male turkey will court stuffed replicas. Human males even participate in this. Human males even get excited over two dimensional photos. :eek:

And we are supposed to take them seriously?

I'll pass thanks. Especially when you factor in just how dodgy they were in how they presented science.

No, Bells. No one is arguing on their behalf. We're passed that.

Now, do you have any scientific evidence to support that "rape is not about sex, but only about violence and power?

Do you have any legal evidence to support your claim that if someone is found insane, they are often not found guilty and thus, deemed to not be responsible for the crime they committed?
 
Trigger? I'm not sure about that, but there may very well be a biologic influence at play.
And what are they?

See, at the moment the people arguing this point have thrown their hat into the ring to bat for those who utterly dismiss that rape is not just the male raping the female to breed. They ignore it completely. Instead, it is brought down to sex and biological triggers - ie that rape is in part sexual.

Once again, this is confounded by the way in which rapists will often rape their victims with objects or even animals (as I noted above, Pinochet soldiers forced live rats into the vagina's of women). When I ask what is the sexual trigger, or the sexual component for the rapist with that, I get silence.

For that matter, the ability to "terrorize" others may be a survival trait. Do you disagree? Might not that ability come in handy in certain circumstances?
How is raping a female and terrorising them a survival trait, if the ability to terrorise and scare off potential predators is a survival trait, for example? Is the female more likely to want to care and nurture the offspring? Are the males around her, with whom she wants to breed, care for, protect, feed the off-spring from another male? No. In fact, we know for a fact that males will sometimes kill off spring from other males so they can breed with the female sooner. What are the evolutionary benefits in that?

Define "terrorise". The dictionary says: "to cause (someone) to be extremely afraid".
Yes.

Strictly speaking the "someone" part might make this a wholly human construct - thus not applicable to any other species.
Take a big stick and chase after any animal. Tell me that it's just humans who feel that level of fear.

That seems an extremely pedantic interpretation but if that's what you're going with, fine, you prevail.
See, this complaint is only valid if you wish to argue that women aren't really afraid or feel terror from being raped.

However, a slightly looser definition would put your challenge in jeopardy, unless forced copulation does not raise "extreme fear" in an unwilling participant, whether that participant be human, chimpanzee or mallard. Is that what you're saying? Do you believe other species to be capable of experiencing extreme fear?
There is no proof that they do feel or experience extreme fear from sex - perhaps they do, perhaps they do not. But I am going off what we do know for certain. And that is the telling thing that you are missing here. Which animal uses sex to terrorise or cause harm?

I notice you also do not discuss the harm factor of rape. Don't forget, rape is also a wholly human construct. Unless of course you are going to follow GeoffP and suggest that we use another word to describe rape because well, it has to be something else..?

Yes? No?

Is rape rape? Or do you believe that rape is just a way for a guy to get off, to spread his seed because it is beneficial for him to do so?

Everyone is all so quick to comment on the benefits of the male to rape - the sexual component, the evolutionary and breeding parts. But what benefits are there for the female? In the human species, females and males, regardless of age and contrary to what the likes of Thonhill and Palmer may try to argue, are traumatised by rape. So what are the benefits for the victims? There is absolutely none.

So I'll ask again, which animal uses sex (like say one would use a tool, puff up one's feather's so to speak or use loud noises or flashing displays) to cause fear or harm?

By the way, don't mallards forcibly copulate with other male mallards?

Oh yeah, I guess they do:

Ducks behave pretty badly, it seems. It is not so much that up to one in 10 of mallard couples are homosexual - no one would raise an eyebrow in the liberal Netherlands - but they regularly indulge in "attempted rape flights" when they pursue other ducks with a view to forcible mating. "Rape is a normal reproductive strategy in mallards," explains Mr Moeliker​

Moreover, mallards are necrophiliacs:

during which time (75 minutes) I made some photographs and the mallard almost continuously copulated his dead congener.

I wonder what the biological imperative is in these cases? Has to be one, right? Certainly the mallards aren't out to "terrorize" but rather are trying to... Ermmm... Well, I don't know the goal there, do you?

Point is, a lot of strange things occur in the sex life of animals. Last I checked, for all our supposed sophistication humans are still classified as animals, no? The goal is to transcend those animalistic and atavistic tendencies. One way to do that is to understand why these tendencies exist in the first place. If you "would give everything [you] own for there to be a biological trigger for rape" perhaps some day you will be rewarded and one will be found. Meanwhile, I'm not ruling out a genetic component, whether that component is there to "terrorize" or to "copulate" or both.
I am not the one arguing for a biological trigger for rape. Perhaps you should ask those who do how this fits in with their theory.

Just a final note about duck 'rape'..

In most birds, the oviduct resembles a simple tube, but in ducks, the vaginal tract not only spirals inside the duck but also has sacs and crevices that add to its complexity. This is bizarre, considering that 97 percent of birds do not have phalluses or vaginal tracts. Even among the remaining three percent that do have phalluses, like the tinamou, ducks are still an anomaly. There are several theories that attempt to explain the unique evolution of ducks’ sexual organs; however, the most popular theory explaining the reproduction organs of waterfowl states that forced copulation is the cause of the unusual structures of ducks’ sexual organs. Forced copulation, which is unlike the reproduction methods of any other birds, is not uncommon among waterfowl.

An Evolutionary Arms Race

The incidence of forced copulation among mallards, the most common species of ducks, has been confirmed in the literature since at least 1911. But the question remained: why would forced copulation influence the structure of a female mallard’s vaginal tract?

Brennan has collaborated with Richard O. Prum, Yale Professor of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, to study the correlation between forced copulation and the complexity of duck genitalia. This study showed that the shape of the female duck’s vaginal tract explains the correlation. While male ducks have corkscrew-shaped phalluses, female ducks have anti-corkscrew-shaped vaginal tracts. That is, female ducks have reproductive organs specifically designed to be hard to penetrate. This means that only the fittest males can successfully copulate with female ducks.

To test her hypothesis, Brennan conducted an experiment on a duck farm in California. The ducks on the California farm were genetically enhanced to be more fit and have larger phalluses, which made them perfect candidates for Brennan’s research. Brennan and her colleagues wanted to see if the female duck vaginal tract was indeed harder for a male duck to penetrate. Three synthetic duck vaginas with different structures were created: two tube-like ones, like the vaginal tracts of most birds, and one that was a replica of a common female duck’s vaginal tract. The studies showed that while most of the male ducks had no difficulty penetrating the two tube-like synthetic vaginas, a significant number of ducks could not penetrate the third anti-spiral synthetic vagina. Therefore, only the fittest ducks with the largest phalluses could penetrate the complicated tract. Through natural selection, male and female ducks have co-evolved in the growth of their reproductive organs.

In other words, the female ducks evolve to thwart the attempts of 'rape' by male ducks - for procreation reasons. And so, through this form of selection, females can ensure that only the strongest male duck is able to get its sperm into her, which will ensure that her off-spring will carry those strong traits. There is absolutely no evidence of this in human evolution.

Author's like Thornhill and Palmer argue that rape can be seen as being a way for males who would not normally be able to have sex, to have sex (in a manner of speaking). In other words, these are supposedly males that females would not choose to sleep with for a variety of reasons. In an evolutionary sense, if females were being forced to breed with weaker males they would not normally choose to breed with, then they, like the female mallard, would have developed sure fire methods of thwarting their attempts to breed. Now, unless you are going to pull an Akin who declared that women are able to 'shut it down' and prevent pregnancy when raped, you're not really going to get far.
 
Which has what to do with rape?
It was an analogy. That is a rhetorical device where a similar (but important note here - NOT identical) situation is used to demonstrate similarities between them. In this case it was to demonstrate that it is wise to use common sense to prevent bad outcomes, and that understanding such common sense solutions does not transfer the blame for the bad outcome to the person taking action to prevent that outcome. It is wise to use common sense to prevent bad outcomes even if it is not possible to prevent then 100%.

I really like how you keep focus on the woman who should use her common sense.
That is an aspect of debate called "parallel construction." It is often used in analogies to make them clearer, and in this case was done to head off your expected "men can't be raped, idiot" or similar departure from the topic.

But to make you happy I will rephrase:
============
A person should use common sense and not leave their guns lying around where anyone can access them. Fortunately most people make such sensible decisions. This, of course, does not excuse criminals who would use those guns to kill them.

A person should use common sense and not wander around the highway when drunk. Fortunately most people make the sensible decision not to do that. This, of course, does not excuse someone who sees them and decides to ram them.

A person should use common sense and not carry their money hanging out of their back pocket. Fortunately most people make the sensible decision to not do that. This, of course, does not excuse someone who steals their money from them.

A person should use common sense and not leave their keys in the ignition in public parking lots. Fortunately most people make the sensible decision to not do that. This, of course, does not excuse someone who steals their car.
==============
How is a woman to know that the man she has known and trusted for years is going to rape her one day?
She can't. It is still a good idea to attempt to prevent it. See examples above.
See, these common sense rape prevention strategies always, and I mean always, deliberately ignore that the majority of rapes are committed by men and women known to the rapist. Most are in a very close relationship with their rapist prior to the rape. I know, I get it, you're just one of those people who believe that women just know these things, that they can read the signs.
Nope. But I believe that women who prepare themselves and make good decisions are less likely to be the victims of crime, including rape. (And to forestall your next departure, it is also true that any people who prepare themselves are less likely to be the victims of crime.) Do you disagree?

Note I am not saying they can absolutely PREVENT crime. I am saying they can reduce its likelihood.
I know you believe that women (and men and children - don't forget, men, women and children are raped, not just women) have a sort of 'rapedar', an inbuilt radar that can somehow or other pick out who is her/his potential rapist and as such, she/he should use common sense amongst such men..
Nope. Just common sense. No rapedar or other magical means, just boring everyday common sense.
 
And what are they?
I don't know, that is why I'm asking. Just because I don't know doesn't mean they don't exist. I have no axe to grind.

See, at the moment the people arguing this point have thrown their hat into the ring to bat for those who utterly dismiss that rape is not just the male raping the female to breed.
And this has what to do with me?

They ignore it completely.
Ignore what?

Instead, it is brought down to sex and biological triggers - ie that rape is in part sexual.
Why is that anathema? Would the world come crashing down if it were found that "rape is in part sexual"?

Once again, this is confounded by the way in which rapists will often rape their victims with objects or even animals (as I noted above, Pinochet soldiers forced live rats into the vagina's of women). When I ask what is the sexual trigger, or the sexual component for the rapist with that, I get silence.
From me you get "I don't know what the sexual trigger is". I don't even know that the "trigger" is sexual in nature but that does not preclude biological influences, now does it? Waging war is not sexual in nature but I doubt you would dispute a biological component there, would you?


How is raping a female and terrorising them a survival trait, if the ability to terrorise and scare off potential predators is a survival trait, for example?
What?

Is the female more likely to want to care and nurture the offspring?
One could argue that she is more likely to "to care and nurture the offspring" then she would be if there were no offspring at all.

Are the males around her, with whom she wants to breed, care for, protect, feed the off-spring from another male?
What? slow down, I'm not following you.

In fact, we know for a fact that males will sometimes kill off spring from other males so they can breed with the female sooner.
And?

What are the evolutionary benefits in that?
In killing offspring from other males? Seems self-evident to me...

See, this complaint is only valid if you wish to argue that women aren't really afraid or feel terror from being raped.
What complaint?

Take a big stick and chase after any animal. Tell me that it's just humans who feel that level of fear.
Au contraire, my point was to establish that other animals do, indeed, feel fear - to any level you might want to contemplate. Therefore, excluding the "someone" part, it is possible to terrorize an animal. So, one would think... But wait:

There is no proof that they do feel or experience extreme fear from sex - perhaps they do, perhaps they do not. But I am going off what we do know for certain.
To paraphrase your words: "Take a big penis and chase after any animal. Tell me that it's just humans who feel that level of fear." Right?

Which animal uses sex to terrorise or cause harm?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that forcible copulation can terrorize and cause harm to any animal. Assuming terrorize means incite a high level of fear. The harm would seem to be apparent to anyone...

I notice you also do not discuss the harm factor of rape.
What is there to discuss? I didn't know there was contention on that point.

Don't forget, rape is also a wholly human construct.
How so?

Unless of course you are going to follow GeoffP and suggest that we use another word to describe rape because well, it has to be something else..?
No, rape is rape - a subset of forced copulation. Unless your saying that the majority of rapes do not involve forced copulation...

Is rape rape?
Is that supposed to be a trick question?

Or do you believe that rape is just a way for a guy to get off, to spread his seed because it is beneficial for him to do so?
No.

Everyone is all so quick to comment on the benefits of the male to rape - the sexual component, the evolutionary and breeding parts. But what benefits are there for the female?
Very good question. Wouldn't it be surprising if there were some sort of benefit to the female? Imagine if she was twice as likely to get pregnant or something. Remember, her genes are in those offspring as well. That would definitely be a topic not to discuss...

In the human species, females and males, regardless of age and contrary to what the likes of Thonhill and Palmer may try to argue, are traumatised by rape.
What makes you think trauma would be limited to the human species?

So I'll ask again, which animal uses sex (like say one would use a tool, puff up one's feather's so to speak or use loud noises or flashing displays) to cause fear or harm?
Besides chimpanzees? Good question...

I am not the one arguing for a biological trigger for rape.
There's a revelation, for sure.

Perhaps you should ask those who do how this fits in with their theory.
You're right, perhaps I should post my questions on an open forum or something, preferably a forum frequented by the intelligent community...

Just a final note about duck 'rape'..

In other words, the female ducks evolve to thwart the attempts of 'rape' by male ducks - for procreation reasons. And so, through this form of selection, females can ensure that only the strongest male duck is able to get its sperm into her, which will ensure that her off-spring will carry those strong traits. There is absolutely no evidence of this in human evolution.
Who said there was any such evidence? Certainly not me...

Author's like Thornhill and Palmer argue that rape can be seen as being a way for males who would not normally be able to have sex, to have sex (in a manner of speaking). In other words, these are supposedly males that females would not choose to sleep with for a variety of reasons. In an evolutionary sense, if females were being forced to breed with weaker males they would not normally choose to breed with, then they, like the female mallard, would have developed sure fire methods of thwarting their attempts to breed.
Notice that I do not rely on nor quote Thornhill and Palmer.

Now, unless you are going to pull an Akin who declared that women are able to 'shut it down' and prevent pregnancy when raped, you're not really going to get far.
Hardly. One of the most ignorant and deplorable assertions in a long line of such assertions by the fundamentalist radical right. Was that a strong enough condemnation for you Bells? Perhaps I should be more graphic about my feelings on Akin, but I prefer not to be banned.
 
Abstraction + Application = Aaaargh!

Randwolf said:

Why is that anathema? Would the world come crashing down if it were found that "rape is in part sexual"?

The part of rape that is sexual is the focus of the assault against sexual organs, ideas, and functions, against another's right to self governance in the question of those organs, ideas, and functions.

Part of the problem with the argument of rape as a sexual expression is that it depends, at some point, on the assertion of one's right to get laid. Sexual freedom is about the right to congress with other legally consenting people; it does not actually confer a right to achieve orgasm by assistance or use of another person's body.

And in a context presuming some abstract right to get laid, rape can't be anything but sexual, because in that context, fucking is what women are for.

I'm not certain people are thinking this through. In the end, what these ideas create is a picture of men in society who cannot help themselves against the biological/sexual impulse to get laid, but also rape nonviable people or nonreproductively rape viable women, which means they can't tell the difference. At what point does a society get to put its foot down and start regulating men because men are generally so damn dangerous? It seems absolutely ridiculous, even cowardly, to hide behind these notions that society owes men some right to create societal instability in order to honor their primal birthright to other people's bodies, yet not account for the damage they would do if such arguments were granted.

At some point this diminution of rape actually harms the people making the argument. We live in a society. If the excuse for men's poor behavior is a birthright to antisocial dysfunction, then the answer is that men need to be locked up and only let out to rub a few off when the species needs some extra seed.

People who want to denigrate men in order to justify rape will find few allies, save for those who also need to improve their chances of getting some.

You know, since it's a biological, sexual thing.
 
The part of rape that is sexual is the focus of the assault against sexual organs, ideas, and functions, against another's right to self governance in the question of those organs, ideas, and functions.

Part of the problem with the argument of rape as a sexual expression is that it depends, at some point, on the assertion of one's right to get laid. Sexual freedom is about the right to congress with other legally consenting people; it does not actually confer a right to achieve orgasm by assistance or use of another person's body.

...
I totally agree. My take is that there may be a subset of rapes in which sex is a factor, especially date rapes. I believe the desire to dominate and force submission of the victim is a factor in all rape, but we are not bivariate creatures. Furthermore, I don't believe that a sexual component should absolve rapists' responsibility, instead it rounds out the factors of causation. A deeper and more complete understanding is never a bad thing, at least in my experience. If it is conclusively proven that sex is never a component of the rape phenomenon, that's OK too. I do not see the harm in asking though.

It's kind of like "rape prevention" - we must take it to absurdity and throw out common sense in the name of politically correct discourse. To which I reply "bullshit", but I'm not going to get into the whole "open ended" strategy thing. On a macro scale, the solution lies in education. On a micro scale, do what you can to protect yourself. If there is nothing you can do, well then you did everything that could be done.

It is possible for more than one position to be valid at the same time...
 
I tried to add this as an edit to the last post but for some reason I've been unable to f***ing edit posts the last few days. If I press the edit button, I get a blank box where my post was...

Anyway. I don't know - Let me sleep on it...

I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god
And on my mother's grave
That I would love you to the end of time
I swore I would love you to the end of time
Whatever it takes, right?
 
So then why do men incapable of having sex rape? Why to men rape other men? Why do women rape? Why do women rape other women? Why do people rape others using instruments? Such as the Glen Ridge Rape



Or how about this case, in which several boys rape another boy with a broomstick?

In a summary of the incident, highlighted by Boston.com, Eramo said Mondol and his two other teenage teammates forced their way into a cabin where freshmen were staying and said: "We're going to pick someone. It's going to be you. It's going to be you," while pointing at different students in the room.

One of his 16-year-old teammates then grabbed a broom and forced a freshman to the floor on his hands and knees and used the broom to rape him. Citing witness reports, Eramo said Mondol tried to stop the assault at one point but he changed his mind.

"I want to have a crack at that,'' he reportedly said. "If you do it again, I will lift up the broomstick,'' he is also alleged to have said.

If you take a look around, you will find many, MANY cases like this... and in many of them, such as my second example, actual intercourse never seems to take place.

If it were "all about sex"... why does this happen so often?

Since nobody bothered to comment on this, reposting it since it is still a valid point
 
So all the men who participate in PUA and the men's rights websites he frequented were also mentally ill?

I wouldn't say it was so much his desired destination as it was his feeling that it was what he was entitled to as his right. That these women should be coming to him and offering themselves to him, to be his girlfriend, because that is what he was entitled to..
By all accounts ER’s social performance was far below that of his peers, and he spent his entire life struggling unsuccessfully to achieve states of social normalcy that most of us take for granted. His social calculus was so flawed that he judged his effort to be worthy of a home run, but in reality couldn’t get him to first base. Because he perceived his social value to be greater than that of his competition he reasoned that he should be entitled to the same reward. Not an unreasonable conclusion if his perception were valid.

Reading his manifesto, he appeared to be very manipulative also. He manipulated his parents to give him whatever he wanted. There were no 'no' boundaries. I suspect, with his mental illness, always getting what he wanted, even if it was through manipulation, he never understood that women were not objects, but were human beings. That lack of boundaries was on full display when he explicitly recounted listening to his sister have sex. He didn't retreat from that. He stood there and listened.
I finally got around to reading the entire manifesto and there’s no real indication that his parents were excessively indulgent for their means or that he was any more manipulative than most children in our culture. As for his view of women, he idolized them, and desperately wanted their love and affection, so much so that the he couldn’t bear to go on living without it.

Big surprise when a sexually obsessed 22 year old guy with childlike social abilities listens in on the act.

As one forensic psychiatrist noted in the article you linked, his manifesto was written very well. He did not rant or rave. He told it like it was a story. “It has none of the raving quality that you see in the writing of people with psychosis,”... And it was, as the article states, very "clear and precise".. So was his mental illness what led him to to write it as he did? Or was that his true self?
It was his story as he wanted it told, not necessarily how it actually transpired, or an expression of the perspectives of those around him. I know a schizophrenic who can give you a similar quasi-rational account of his life experiences, but the more time you spend with him, or talk to others who have, the mental dysfunction absent from his personal account becomes increasingly apparent.

Misogyny exists, and it isn't a sign of mental illness. His retreat into the online community, where that sense of entitlement and where women are viewed as objects and not actual people, it fed his sense of ownership. Everything had to revolve around him. As one person noted in one of the links above, his angry response that his parents dared to presume that he should share his gaming console with his sister. Him.. share?
Ownership? He never expressed the desire to own women, only to have their willing love and respect. Even the idea of having to pay for a woman’s affection by way of prostitution repulsed him. ER considered himself socially worthy of their affection, but was incapable or unwilling to propose a valid reason as to why they didn’t. His final solution to dominate and punish men, women and society in general stems from the hopeless realization that he would never get the social justice he felt was continually denied him.

For a child that perceived himself to be starved of satisfying social interaction, it doesn’t really seem that unreasonable for him to covet his Playstation, one of the few means of personal satisfaction he valued at the time.

To a rational outsider the errors in his logic seem obvious. I wonder what defect in his psyche made him so oblivious to the obvious?
 
Ownership? He never expressed the desire to own women, only to have their willing love and respect. Even the idea of having to pay for a woman’s affection by way of prostitution repulsed him. ER considered himself socially worthy of their affection, but was incapable or unwilling to propose a valid reason as to why they didn't. His final solution to dominate and punish men, women and society in general stems from the hopeless realization that he would never get the social justice he felt was continually denied him.

But he also thought sex was disgusting.

Disgust is closely linked to experiences of vulnerability and shame. Misogynistic disgust has some empirical starting points that help to explain why this form of projection turns with such monotonous regularity in more less all societies. Miller argues that misogyny lies very close to ideational core of disgust. Is it odium when it's coupled with hate? Miller states that males are disturbed by birth and especially by their own sexuality and bodily fluids. Elliot Roger expressed this well.

In Tolstoy’s Kretzer Sonata, the killer-husband describes sex as inevitably linked to revulsion with the woman who has inspired desire, and thence with rage and hatred for the subjection to desire that is intrinsic to any sexual relationship. For Schopenhauer, whose views are very similar, woman embodies the force of animal nature, striving to preserve itself; her allure is a primary obstacle to male projects of contemplation and detachment. Weininger, too, argued that woman, unlike man, is entirely sex and sexual, and that she is in effect the man’s animality, from which he tries to distance himself from, with reactions of both disgust and guilt.

The Anatomy of Disgust by William Ian Miller
Hiding from Humanity by Martha C. Nussbaum
 
Well, a male turkey will court stuffed replicas. Human males even participate in this. Human males even get excited over two dimensional photos. :eek:
Yep, and sometimes a guy will just get a boner while washing his car or chopping a carrot.

Are you of the belief that male erection and ejaculation is only indicative of pleasure? Or being turned on?

Erections and ejaculations are only partially under voluntary control and are known to occur during times of extreme duress in the absence of sexual pleasure.

That was part of a paper about male rape victims. Society and the legal system often dismiss male rape victims because they became aroused during their rape or they ejaculated. It's not because they are turned on or horny or enjoying themselves. Nor do the men, who get erections during their executions, getting sexually excited.


No, Bells. No one is arguing on their behalf. We're passed that.
Really?

Hmm.. Interesting..

Now, do you have any scientific evidence to support that "rape is not about sex, but only about violence and power?

The sexual arousal profile of a subgroup of rapists with a history of low-level physical violence during their offenses was assessed. Twenty subjects participated: 10 rapists and 10 nonrapists. Stimuli consisted of audiotapes with the following five thematic contents: mutually consenting sexual activities; rape involving physical violence; rape involving humiliation; physical aggression without sexual activities; neutral. Penile responses were recorded during stimuli presentation using a mercury-in-rubber strain gauge. Data showed no differences between both groups for the rape stimuli involving physical violence. For the rape stimuli involving humiliation, however, the penile responses of the two groups differed. With those stimuli the average penile response of the rapists was higher than that of the nonrapists. Therefore, for this subgroup of rapists the association between sexual activities and humiliation presents a higher erotic value than the association between sexual activities and physical violence.

In other words, rapists got off on humiliation. That is what they responded to. As such, when a rapist rapes, he's (or she) is not doing it because they are horny like mallards.




Individuals who are high in rape myth acceptance (RMA) have been found to report a high proclivity to rape. In a series of three studies, the authors examined whether the relationship between RMA and self-reported rape proclivity was mediated by anticipated sexual arousal or anticipated enjoyment of sexually dominating the rape victim. Results of all three studies suggest that the anticipated enjoyment of sexual dominance mediates the relationship between RMA and rape proclivity, whereas anticipated sexual arousal does not.

"Rape myth acceptance and rape proclivity: expected dominance versus expected arousal as mediators in acquaintance-rape situations"



Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.


Rape: power, anger, and sexuality.

The author of that study is a man named Nicholas A. Groth. If you don't know who that is, he pretty much wrote the handbook on rapists and types of rapists. For example, sex offender typology:

Similar to the classification of individuals who sexually abuse children, Groth and his colleagues also identified subtypes of men who rape women, based on the characteristics and patterns of the acts and the different motivations believed to underlie them. Again, not all individuals will fall “neatly” into a single category, as they may display characteristics or motivations that exist within other subtypes.

  • Anger Rapist. Persons is this category are believed to commit rape in part as a means of expressing anger and hostility that has built up over time—not for sexual gratification, per se. In general, anger rapists have intimate relationships that are marked by conflict, and they displace their hostility and resentment on the victims whom they target. They tend to use considerable force and are both physically and verbally aggressive toward their victims, often causing considerable physical injury. In addition, anger rapists tend to subject victims to particularly degrading and humiliating sexual acts. It is believed that these rapes are more spontaneous and impulsive, rather than carefully planned, and they are often preceded by some type of precipitating life stressor, such as an argument with a girlfriend or wife, or a significant conflict in the workplace.
  • Power Rapist. As the name clearly suggests, these individuals are primarily motivated by power. Men in this subtype are interested more in having control over their victims and “possessing” them, so to speak, than they are interested in causing physical harm. Oftentimes, power rapists have problems with feeling inadequate, controlled by others, or are insecure about their masculinity, so they use rape as a means of feeling more powerful, strong, or in control. The acts are about “conquering” women to demonstrate their “manhood.” Men in this subtype may engage in more planning and premeditation, as they typically look for someone who appears vulnerable and may be an easy target. In some instances, rapes may be triggered by recently perceived threats to the offender’s competency or masculinity.
  • Sadistic Rapist. Groth and his colleagues suggest that this subtype of rapists is perhaps the most dangerous. These men experience a great deal of pleasure and excitement—including sexual arousal—from inflicting harm on their victims, and enjoy watching the victim’s fear and suffering. During the rapes, these men are extremely abusive. They may restrain and torture their victims in idiosyncratic and sometimes bizarre ways. And at the most extreme end, sadistic rapists may even mutilate or kill their victims. These crimes tend to be the product of considerable planning and premeditation; victims are often targeted and then stalked because of specific physical or other attributes.


Note the running theme.. They aren't raping because they are horny.

In two studies about the behavioural characteristics of rapists and their communications with the victim during the rape, they also found an underlying theme of yes, power, subjugation, control..

The most common offender communication themes found in the current studies were that of a caring/persuasion/reassurance theme in study 1 and an angry/demeaning/threatening theme in study 2. The caring/persuasion/reassurance theme included words that suggested that the offender was worried about the victim, that the offender was trying to persuade the victim to do something or words that were meant to be reassuring in nature. The angry/demeaning/threatening theme included words that were angry, aggressive, demeaning or threatening to the victim in nature.

Previous research has not focused on rapists’ communication patterns, except for a study conducted by Darke (1986) that focused only on verbal communication related to humiliation. However, the caring/persuasion/reassurance theme appears to be consistent with the power reassurance rapist [proposed by Douglas & Olshaker (1998) to be the most common type of rapist], because previous researchers have suggested that this type of rapist generally feels inadequate and compensates for these feelings of inadequacy by sexually assaulting women (Douglas & Olshaker, 1998; Hazelwood & Burgess, 1987). Furthermore, it seems that this type of rapist is constantly looking for reassurance of his own power and potency, and may apologize and express concern for his victim (Douglas & Olshaker, 1998; Hazelwood & Burgess, 1987). However, this type of behaviour serves his need for reassurance rather than expressing any genuine concern for his victim (Douglas & Olshaker, 1998).
The angry/demeaning/threatening theme was the most common type of offender communication found in study 2. This theme does not seem to fit neatly with the rapist typologies proposed by previous researchers, for example the anger rapist, the power
exploitative rapist, the power reassurance rapist and the sadistic rapist (Knight & Prentky, 1990; Prentky & Knight, 1991). However, some of the communication patterns seem to be consistent with the power exploitative rapist, as researchers suggest that this type of rapist is generally concerned with dominating and controlling his victim and using force, threats and humiliation to gain this submission (Douglas & Olshaker, 1998). This theme is also consistent with the crime scene variables of aggression, antisocial behaviour, anger and vindictiveness identified by Knight et al. (1998).



Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go and stop myself from slashing my own wrists. Because right now, thanks to all of this, that is what I want to do. Happy now? I mean is that enough evidence for you? Or do you want me to relive it some more for your own satisfaction?

Do you have any legal evidence to support your claim that if someone is found insane, they are often not found guilty and thus, deemed to not be responsible for the crime they committed?

What?

I said that if someone is found to be insane, those individuals will often be found not guilty by reasons of insanity. Are you claiming this is does not happen for people who are found to be insane after evaluation?

Also.. Re Rodger..

If a guy wrote a manifesto like Rodger and instead of "women", he wrote Jews. And he rants and raves in the same way that Rodger raves about women, only he's doing it towards Jews.. And then one day, he takes some guns and tries to enter a Synagogue and then when he can't, goes out and simply shoots whomever he can. Is he anti-Semitic? Or is he just afraid of Jews and hates Christians more than he hates Jews because the people he does end up killing are Christians? When the anti-Semitic shooter went to a Jewish hall and shot and killed two Christian people outside, who were walking towards the hall for a talent show, and then got into his car and drove to a Jewish run old people's home and shot dead a young woman outside.. Would you claim he did not hate Jews because he killed more Christians instead of Jews?​

Could you answer that please?

Thanks. :)



Randwolf and Capracus.. I'll respond to you when I am more able to, and in a better frame of mind to respond to you. This post was not an easy one to write for me at this time.
 
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