The Bible - the book of evil

[Avatar]

I have witnessed your little struggle and can say what I concluded from this as well as my own bible reading experience.

Bible is a compilation of semi-historical stories, bed time stories and old myths gahtered from other, older cultures (giglamesh). Most of the bible depicts the time it was written- or the parts of the bible depict the time they were written. They depict tht day culture. The culture is affected by time as it changes , changes also the laws and wievs of people to particular events, situations (for christians- this surely shows tht there is no god or tht god changes with the culture of the depicters i.e. he listens to the overall views (views of a particular location i.e. the holy land) and judge according to thm). That day culture is as Cris showed- cruel and knows nothing of human rights. Saying tht bible is evil because of this is wrong. Maybe some 2000 years in the future our time would be known as very cruel. But we clearly see tht even if god existed (bible god) it was just as bad as the society it judged, thus making me to believe tht there was no god as christians think of him , because he is dependent of the time and place he judges.

(my particular view tht there is no god didn't affect my observation in this situation)

 

[Cris]

Ekimlaw,

There is no good side to humans without morals and God. Left unto himself man is selfish, and gravitates toward evil.

And your proof is?

No, you just dig through it sifting out all the little morsels you consider bad and presenting that as proof that God is bad. I thought your stance was that there is NO God (?)

Well no, I stopped reading the bible in any serious manner over 30 years ago. It helped me become an atheist then for which I am truly thankful. The quotes here are from a website that I posted on the opening post. I have no interest in wasting time trying to prove the object of a fantasy is bad. And am certainly not interested anymore in wading through ancient myths, others can do that if they wish.

The bible is a book littered with violence and perversions, and certainly describes a frequently violent and angry God. Violence is the final resort of the desperate, but often the first resort of the feeble minded, and God seems to resort to violence very quickly. Looking at the bible and Christianity as a whole I find it confusing that you would choose to believe and follow the idea of a such a violent and seemingly sadistic monster.

I have traveled quite widely and have observed the behavior of people from many walks of life and many countries. I work in a research environment with many highly intelligent people. I have noticed two very obvious differentiating characteristics between the peoples of the world. Those who are poorly educated and of low intelligence tend to use physical force very quickly and as their primary method of argument. The most intelligent people tend to be very modest, unassuming, very peaceful, and display great wisdom. Violence is the very last thing they would ever consider if at all.

If you have ever met any truly intelligent people, much brighter than yourself then you will easily understand what I mean. If you have no idea what I am talking about then I suggest we talk again in about 10 years. I’ll assume you do know.

Why is it that the being with allegedly perfect intelligence has to resort to obscene violence so often? This does not indicate one who is either intelligent or wise, but an evil monster whose book in his name records the evils he has committed and supports.

I surmise, and please correct me if I am wrong, but your ignorance of atheism indicates you have never been an atheist, and that and other things you have said further indicates that you have been a Christian from childhood. You do use Christian propaganda quite a bit and actually believe it, e.g. the archaic notion that atheists must be evil. You’ve indicated your position on this several times in almost throwaway statements i.e. without a belief in God there can be no morality – therefore atheists are immoral and hence evil. You haven’t brought yourself to say it yet but it is clear that is what you think. The position you take is typical of one who has been indoctrinated into Christianity from childhood, I could be wrong and you might have been indoctrinated later, but somehow I don’t think so mainly because of your often arrogant and condescending style (no personal offense here, as I’m not sure it is deliberate), but that is a giveaway Christian trait that is really quite offensive, and is usually not used by those who have seen both sides of the picture.

I think you’ve missed my point about the bible. If a truly wise and intelligent god existed then he would be able to educate and teach rather than kill and torture. The young men who were mauled by bears should have been taught the error of their ways in a peaceful and loving manner. This is the approach of the wise. Instead they were not taught anything only that God is violent and must be feared; the mark of the tyrant.

The descriptions of violence are included in the bible because that was the experience of the writers some 2000+ years ago when ignorance and illiteracy were rife and violence was the only common currency understood by everyone. The bible reflects the ignorance and barbarity of the times, and has nothing to do with the word of an alleged god. They could not have written about a passive god, since only someone who wields brutality would have been considered believable.

Christianity and the bible encourage the belief that man is basically bad, and I see you believe this. And that a dependence on God is the only hope for mankind. The Christian tends to see bad in everyone because he is taught it is there. In ancient times even diseases were considered the result of some sinful action. This tendency to see bad in everyone and oneself causes enormous internal torment, stress, and feelings of guilt by many Christians and I see you referred to yourself in this manner in another post where you said you had to pray and stay close to god to combat your feelings of guilt. This is an unfortunate effect of religious indoctrination, and quite sad.

Once I left Christianity the internal torment eventually subsided and I could live a normal life again.

Morality has nothing to do with God and everything to do with people. People aren’t evil, but ignorant people can be confused. Religious morality is based entirely on fear of punishment. Human morality is based on survival, and survival needs communities, health systems, loving companionships, curiosity, safety, friendship, education, wisdom, and intelligence.

Humans are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves; it is how we moved from the caves to civilized modern cities. And it is perfectly logical to reason that caring for others and being cared for in return results in increased happiness and increased chances of survival. We have no need for ancient mythologies to tell us how to behave. Moral behavior is based on the logic of survival. And religious morality is based on fear of punishment rather than what is good or bad. In this very real sense religion and especially Christianity is a significant hindrance to the development of truly effective morality. And that is a good reason to encourage the eventual demise of Christianity.

Have fun
Cris

 

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by Cris
Those who are poorly educated and of low intelligence tend to use physical force very quickly and as their primary method of argument. The most intelligent people tend to be very modest, unassuming, very peaceful, and display great wisdom. Violence is the very last thing they would ever consider if at all.

This is very true Cris. I know from experience, of course I don't believe because I experienced it!

If you have ever met any truly intelligent people, much brighter than yourself then you will easily understand what I mean. If you have no idea what I am talking about then I suggest we talk again in about 10 years. I’ll assume you do know.

A teacher mine visited me, he is highly intelligent (math/science teachers always are ) and caring, and he advised me to "concentrate" my energy and focus it on the wound. He said find your "color" (blue, green, whatever) and focus it on the wounded area, it's like deep meditation. My shoulder was dislocated and two main ligaments were torn, so it was very painful. Of course, of how logical I was, I immediately thought, "What nonsense?! But then after thinking, I decided why not? Do I lose anything if I try?" I trusted my teacher, so I started to believe (you have to believe it works, in order for it to work), concentrate and focus, and before I knew it, the pain subsided greatly. Color I found was a light bluish form. I don't care what others say now (your illogical and all that BS), but the human belief system is a great thing, you may not want to use it but it's there for certain benefits. And no, I don't let my beliefs control me, rather my logical brain controls my beliefs - so I won't end up like the idiots that blew up the WTC.

My "illogical" side and logical side are two different areas, they share one thing in common, they both benefit me. I hope you understand why I don't completely disregard faith.

 

[Zero]

?? Bible the book of evil??

It's just a highly popular bestseller of bestsellers which happens to contain a few bits of good sense, except for the religious parts. It's just another book.

 

[Ekimklaw]

(Warning: This post contains views expressed with personal conviction. Please do not mistake this for condescension. Thank you!)

Cris, you say you want proof that man has a tendency toward evil? Watch the news . Seriously do you have to teach a child to lie, cheat, and steal? Instead you must teach him (often with much difficulty) to tell the truth, be polite and not to steal. If you still need proof of man's evilness take a look at: Pol Pot (Cambodian dictator), Idi Amin (African dictator), Adolph Hitler (German dictator), Joseph Stalin (Russian dictator), Genghis Khan (Mongol dictator), Nero, and Caligula (Roman dictators). Most if not all were staunch Atheists too.

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Cris wrote:
I stopped reading the bible in any serious manner over 30 years ago. It helped me become an atheist then for which I am truly thankful.
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That is fine. You have the right to believe whatever you will.

Here's a passage of scripture that may apply to you and those like you (please don't skip over it):

"I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God. 19As the Scriptures say,

'I will destroy human wisdom
and discard their most brilliant ideas.'

So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe. God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense. But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God. This "foolish" plan of God is far wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God's weakness is far stronger than the greatest of human strength.
Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy when God called you. Instead, God deliberately chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose those who are powerless to shame those who are powerful. God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important, so that no one can ever boast in the presence of God.
God alone made it possible for you to be in Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made Christ to be wisdom itself. He is the one who made us acceptable to God. He made us pure and holy, and he gave himself to purchase our freedom. As the Scriptures say,

'The person who wishes to boast
should boast only of what the Lord has done.'"

-- 1 Corinthians 1:18-31


Why do I continue debating you? Partly for entertainment, partly to reinforce in my mind the folly of atheistic arguments (thank you), but mainly because I have this hope that at some point you will wake up and realize that you need to be saved. Hey I can always hope. It's your choice though.


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Cris wrote:
The quotes here are from a website that I posted on the opening post. I have no interest in wasting time trying to prove the object of a fantasy is bad. And am certainly not interested anymore in wading through ancient myths, others can do that if they wish.
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You seem to be frightened of these so-called "myths". But what are you afraid of? That they might start making sense?

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Cris wrote:
The bible is a book littered with violence and perversions, and certainly describes a frequently violent and angry God.
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Did you even read my response to you regarding this? I thought it was very cogent and readable. I'm starting to think you ignore the facts I present in my posts.

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Cris wrote:
Violence is the final resort of the desperate, but often the first resort of the feeble minded, and God seems to resort to violence very quickly. Looking at the bible and Christianity as a whole I find it confusing that you would choose to believe and follow the idea of a such a violent and seemingly sadistic monster.
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What if the violence is justified? By the way, you have no grounds for your claim that the Bible describes God as a "sadistic monster". Simply saying that you disagree with the Bible is not enough? You have to slander it by saying it presents some kind of OZ-like uber-villain. Uh... no.

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Cris wrote:
I have traveled quite widely and have observed the behavior of people from many walks of life and many countries. I work in a research environment with many highly intelligent people. I have noticed two very obvious differentiating characteristics between the peoples of the world. Those who are poorly educated and of low intelligence tend to use physical force very quickly and as their primary method of argument. The most intelligent people tend to be very modest, unassuming, very peaceful, and display great wisdom. Violence is the very last thing they would ever consider if at all.
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So what? What does this have to do with the existence of God. This is a "straw man" argument. I'm afraid it's irrelevant.

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Cris wrote:
If you have ever met any truly intelligent people, much brighter than yourself then you will easily understand what I mean. If you have no idea what I am talking about then I suggest we talk again in about 10 years. I’ll assume you do know.
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The most intelligent people I know are religious. Sorry.

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Cris wrote:
Why is it that the being with allegedly perfect intelligence has to resort to obscene violence so often? This does not indicate one who is either intelligent or wise, but an evil monster whose book in his name records the evils he has committed and supports.
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These are wild opinions based on misunderstanding and anti-religious bigotry. Ad hominem attacks are pointless in a civil debate. My purpose here is to convince you I am right. Not to anger you with slanders.

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Cris wrote:
I surmise, and please correct me if I am wrong, but your ignorance of atheism indicates you have never been an atheist, and that and other things you have said further indicates that you have been a Christian from childhood.
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I have been a believer since age seven. To you this somehow makes my views untenable. Since you have such an anti-Christian bias, it is understandable that you would set up atheism as being a prerequisite for intellect. Therefore, in your mind it is thus:

Atheist = intelligent person
Theist = unintelligent fool

Though it probably matters little to you, I am a very skeptical person who tends to over-investigate things before believing them.

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Cris wrote:
You do use Christian propaganda quite a bit and actually believe it, e.g. the archaic notion that atheists must be evil.
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One man's belief is another man's propaganda. It is my opinion that the concept of "Atheism" has evil qualities. It is not my position that atheists are evil people.

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Cris wrote:
You’ve indicated your position on this several times in almost throwaway statements i.e. without a belief in God there can be no morality – therefore atheists are immoral and hence evil. You haven’t brought yourself to say it yet but it is clear that is what you think.
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For the record... I do not think atheists are immoral evil people. Cris, as a victim of blanket statements, I try to never make them myself. I'm sure most atheists are wonderful loving people. Full of kindness and generosity. However, since there is no God (in their minds) who is to say that is how people SHOULD be? That is my point. There is no basis for the concept of moral absolutes if there is no absolutely moral thing (i.e. God).

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Cris wrote:
The position you take is typical of one who has been indoctrinated into Christianity from childhood, I could be wrong and you might have been indoctrinated later, but somehow I don’t think so mainly because of your often arrogant and condescending style (no personal offense here, as I’m not sure it is deliberate), but that is a giveaway Christian trait that is really quite offensive, and is usually not used by those who have seen both sides of the picture.
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I appologise for seeming arrogant sometimes. Occasionally confidence in one's viewpoint can be seen as arrogance. I know. It was not my intent to seem this way. Not at all!

I don't mind careful thoughtful debate. In fact I love it. And if someone doesn't believe in God, that is fine. It's ok to argue against God if you truly feel led to. BUT... I get peeved when things are taken out of context and assumptions are made, blanket statements start flying and misguided perceptions are put forth as fact, name-calling ensues, etc. Heck, anyone can get steamed over that. No matter what the topic of debate.

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Cris wrote:
I think you’ve missed my point about the bible. If a truly wise and intelligent god existed then he would be able to educate and teach rather than kill and torture. The young men who were mauled by bears should have been taught the error of their ways in a peaceful and loving manner. This is the approach of the wise. Instead they were not taught anything only that God is violent and must be feared; the mark of the tyrant.
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Please do not "throw the baby out with the bathwater". There are some instances where things turn violent, but it is never (in my mind) unjustified. All the violence is usually the result of sinning against God. This is the way it is. "The wages of sin is death" whether we like it or not. God is not asking us, he is telling us. Here's an analogy: "the wages of fighting a lion with no weapon is death." These are statements of natural fact.

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Cris wrote:
The descriptions of violence are included in the bible because that was the experience of the writers some 2000+ years ago when ignorance and illiteracy were rife and violence was the only common currency understood by everyone. The bible reflects the ignorance and barbarity of the times, and has nothing to do with the word of an alleged god. They could not have written about a passive god, since only someone who wields brutality would have been considered believable.
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Have you read the New Testement? The violent sin-nature that you mentioned cost Jesus his life. Jesus (who was God in the flesh) gave himself up into the hands of violent men. He suffered like few others have. Yet in his dying, he made a way for salvation. To me this is the supreme act of loving sacrifice. All of this was done by God himself. His love for us knows no bounds. Cuz after all he didn't HAVE to do this.

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Cris wrote:
Christianity and the bible encourage the belief that man is basically bad, and I see you believe this. And that a dependence on God is the only hope for mankind. The Christian tends to see bad in everyone because he is taught it is there. In ancient times even diseases were considered the result of some sinful action. This tendency to see bad in everyone and oneself causes enormous internal torment, stress, and feelings of guilt by many Christians and I see you referred to yourself in this manner in another post where you said you had to pray and stay close to god to combat your feelings of guilt. This is an unfortunate effect of religious indoctrination, and quite sad.
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I do not see the bad in everyone. I just believe I am right, and would be a sorry person if I thought I was onto something great and didn't share it. It is not my intent to brow beat anyone into belief (it can't be done anyway). My internal conflict is just the struggle between the Holy Spirit and my natural sin nature. When I'm closest to God... those are the times I am happiest.

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Cris wrote:
Once I left Christianity the internal torment eventually subsided and I could live a normal life again.
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We were given a free will by our creator so this choice could be made. I, of course, bear no ill will toward you for this decision.

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Cris wrote:
Morality has nothing to do with God and everything to do with people. People aren’t evil, but ignorant people can be confused. Religious morality is based entirely on fear of punishment. Human morality is based on survival, and survival needs communities, health systems, loving companionships, curiosity, safety, friendship, education, wisdom, and intelligence.
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Morality has EVERYTHING to do with God. You are right to some degree, except I think that all of the wonderful things you wrote above are found in Christian families far more prevelantly, if they are truly living "in God". That isn't to say that NO atheists can do this, I'm sure most atheists can do this. It is simply my BELIEF that it is most common in Christian homes.

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Humans are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves; it is how we moved from the caves to civilized modern cities. And it is perfectly logical to reason that caring for others and being cared for in return results in increased happiness and increased chances of survival. We have no need for ancient mythologies to tell us how to behave. Moral behavior is based on the logic of survival. And religious morality is based on fear of punishment rather than what is good or bad. In this very real sense religion and especially Christianity is a significant hindrance to the development of truly effective morality.
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You may think it is "good" to care for others and such (and I of course concur). But who are you to disagree with someone who thinks that caring for others is foolish? Who is right? Says who? Since there are no absolutes, how is your worldview better than his? I seem to have trouble making you understand my view on this.

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Cris wrote:
And that is a good reason to encourage the eventual demise of Christianity.
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I think the notion of atheism must be rejected intellectually in favor of a belief in God. You, on the other hand, want Christianity "destroyed"!

It's funny, I don't feel near as threatened by atheism as you seem to feel threatened by Christianity.

By the way... have I called for the demise of atheism? Or have I said "It's your choice."

Do I not have the right to believe in God?

Your Christian pal...

-Mike

Ps. A week ago, my sister-in-law's aunt took her own life with a shotgun blast to the face. She had sent her husband off to the store with a list. When he returned she had committed suicide. The note mentioned a feeling of "despair".

For what it's worth... she was an atheist.

 

[Tyler]

"Ps. A week ago, my sister-in-law's aunt took her own life with a shotgun blast to the face. She had sent her husband off to the store with a list. When he returned she had committed suicide. The note mentioned a feeling of "despair".

For what it's worth... she was an atheist."

Religion is for people who can't handle life with reality. Nice point. And I'm glad you consider it good and kind to use a family member's death to prove a point and on top of that assume she was in despair because of her atheism.

 

[(Q)]

Ps. A week ago, my sister-in-law's aunt took her own life with a shotgun blast to the face. She had sent her husband off to the store with a list. When he returned she had committed suicide. The note mentioned a feeling of "despair".

For what it's worth... she was an atheist.

Sorry to hear about your sister-in-law's aunt. How have you managed to make a connection between "despair" and "atheism ?" Perhaps her despair was due to the fact that other members of her family were theist and therefore could not bear to live.

Can you see how ridiculous both my assumption and yours are representative to the real reasons why she took her own life ?

 

[Xev]

This may break your little fundie heart, Elkie, but we're not that easy to get rid of.

Indeed, my skepticism about the existance of an afterlife is the only reason I am alive.

Suicidal despair? How about deep self loathing? You know anything about intellectual pain, you insolent and insular little twit? You know anything about being raised with the conviction that you are the scum of the universe?

Meh, I'm not about to explain any of this to one such as you...I'm sure it would only serve as flamage. Suffice to say that it was only the fact that I realized that I would waste my only chance at life that kept me from slitting my wrists.

I don't intend on ever letting myself end up there again, sooo.....

Methinks you'll have to break out the torches and faggots if you want to be rid of Xev.

No athiestic mass suicides are planned, so I'd advise you to leave off hoping.

Others will reply to you with logical arguments, which are, of course, wasted on you. I think that an argument by ancedote would be more appropriate for a fallacy spewing moron such as yourself.

I might well argue that athiesm saves lives, as it saved mine. Certainly you are not smart enough to detect the problem with that logic.

So I guess the question is now....

Are you really this stupid or do you deliberatly post flamebait?

 

[Ekimklaw]

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XEV wrote:
This may break your little fundie heart, Elkie, but we're not that easy to get rid of.
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This means nothing. It is incoherant at best.

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XEV wrote:
Indeed, my skepticism about the existance of an afterlife is the only reason I am alive.
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Okay. You live in the world you create.

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XEV wrote:
Suicidal despair? How about deep self loathing? You know anything about intellectual pain, you insolent and insular little twit?
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No. (Very intellectual argument by the way. I'm almost convinced. Maybe if you call me a "moron" or something).

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XEV wrote:
You know anything about being raised with the conviction that you are the scum of the universe?
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I don't worry what others think of me. I have an inner strength that keeps me from giving a hoot what you or anyone else think of me. What I care about is what God thinks of me.

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XEV wrote:
Meh, I'm not about to explain any of this to one such as you...I'm sure it would only serve as flamage.
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I flame no one. I express my opinions. That and defend myself and my points of view. Is that so bad?

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XEV wrote:
Suffice to say that it was only the fact that I realized that I would waste my only chance at life that kept me from slitting my wrists.
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Ok.

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XEV wrote:
I don't intend on ever letting myself end up there again, sooo.....
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Glad to hear it.

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XEV wrote:
Methinks you'll have to break out the torches and faggots if you want to be rid of Xev.
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No one is trying to get rid of you.

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XEV wrote:
No athiestic mass suicides are planned, so I'd advise you to leave off hoping.
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Mischaracterization.

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XEV wrote:
Others will reply to you with logical arguments,
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You sure didn't.

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XEV wrote:
which are, of course, wasted on you.
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Is that true? Or are your "logical" arguments ineffective? You're the one who is mad. Not me.

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XEV wrote:
I think that an argument by ancedote would be more appropriate for a fallacy spewing moron such as yourself.
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You called me a moron. Hmmm... nope... I'm still not convinced that God doesn't exist. Maybe you could try calling me some other names.

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XEV wrote:
I might well argue that athiesm saves lives, as it saved mine. Certainly you are not smart enough to detect the problem with that logic.
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So your assertion is that I agree with you or else I am not smart. Wow... brilliant. What are you about 13 years old?

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XEV wrote:
So I guess the question is now....

Are you really this stupid or do you deliberatly post flamebait?
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I guess 13 was a little generous.

Well, Xev I still believe in God. Thanks.

-Mike

 

[Ekimklaw]

Originally posted by Tyler
"Ps. A week ago, my sister-in-law's aunt took her own life with a shotgun blast to the face. She had sent her husband off to the store with a list. When he returned she had committed suicide. The note mentioned a feeling of "despair".

For what it's worth... she was an atheist."

Religion is for people who can't handle life with reality. Nice point. And I'm glad you consider it good and kind to use a family member's death to prove a point and on top of that assume she was in despair because of her atheism.

You know, there may have been no connection. But... it is still sad. Isn't it? In her mind this world was as good as it gets. Since she had a bunch of medical problems and such, she had no hope. She is the only atheist I knew. That's 1 out of 1.

You think it unethical of me to "use" a family members death to make a point. Well, I don't believe it is. So, since you believe that right and wrong is up to the individual, you should support me on this. Have a nice day.

-Mike

 

[Ekimklaw]

Originally posted by (Q)
Ps. A week ago, my sister-in-law's aunt took her own life with a shotgun blast to the face. She had sent her husband off to the store with a list. When he returned she had committed suicide. The note mentioned a feeling of "despair".

For what it's worth... she was an atheist.

Sorry to hear about your sister-in-law's aunt. How have you managed to make a connection between "despair" and "atheism ?" Perhaps her despair was due to the fact that other members of her family were theist and therefore could not bear to live.

Can you see how ridiculous both my assumption and yours are representative to the real reasons why she took her own life ?

You are probably right, I shouldn't assume the connection. Like I say elsewhere in this thread, there may be NO connection between her suicide and her atheism, but the fact is she ran out of hope. I ache for her and her immediate family. Her husband while NOT a Christian did believe in "a higher power" as he put it. But he was as irreligious as they come. One of his sisters believed as he did. The family members who believe never brow beat her (that I know of) about her disbelief.

It's just in my mind (understand this is my opinion which I am entitled to) I can't seem to divorce the fact that she had NO HOPE, from the fact that she was an atheist.

Her son, who is devout, was really really shaken by this, as you can imagine.

Suicide no matter the reason, is a drastically selfish and horrifically sad act which leaves shattered family members in its wake and reduces the deceased persons life to nothing but a hopeless tragedy.

By the way, thanks for your condolences "Q".

-Mike

 

[Xev]

Mischaracterization

Simply showing that you ain't gonna get what you want.

But if you try sometimes.....

As for unethical, naw, Ty, you're wrong. It just goes to show the insensibility theism causes.

He thought so little of his family that he'd use their suicide to prove a point. Interesting. Or perhaps he made the whole story up out of cloth.

Hmmmm....

I'd advise you not to feed one who seems on the verge of trolling.

 

[Zero]

Hm, insensibility? There is no superior point of view, it's just the individual goodness that causes you to believe that a particular point of view is superior. At least I think.

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by Ekimklaw

It's just in my mind (understand this is my opinion which I am entitled to) I can't seem to divorce the fact that she had NO HOPE, from the fact that she was an atheist.

Just so you know, I do not believe in an afterlife and I have hope. In fact, I would say hope is one of the most important things to me.

 

[Zero]

you know, the thing is that...these threads might not work out so well. The title itself is a sort of challenge, 'Bible the book of evil', and it might intimidate believers. This will keep them from participating (or posting reasonably useful arguments). All you will be stuck with is some sympathetic atheists and some overheated (and yelling at the top of their lungs) Christians. Which would not be so good for discussion or exchange of ideas. The idea is mutual respect and cool heads. Just my oh so humble opinion.

Any thoughts? Now don't start leveling thermonuclear blasts at me please.

 

[Cris]

Ekim,

If you still need proof of man's evilness take a look at: Pol Pot (Cambodian dictator), Idi Amin (African dictator), Adolph Hitler (German dictator), Joseph Stalin (Russian dictator), Genghis Khan (Mongol dictator), Nero, and Caligula (Roman dictators). Most if not all were staunch Atheists too.

There is no doubt that some people are evil. There is no doubt that some people are evil and are atheists. Your statement here tries to imply that these people were evil because they were atheists. That is invalid logic. That is analogous to saying that some murderers are men and hence all men are murderers. The attribute of atheism cannot accordingly imply evil. The attempt at guilt by association in this form is better known as religious propaganda.

Cris, you say you want proof that man has a tendency toward evil?
Watch the news . Seriously do you have to teach a child to lie, cheat, and steal? Instead you must teach him (often with much difficulty) to tell the truth, be polite and not to steal.

It isn’t evil to be ignorant. Your answer indicates your understanding that education is needed to overcome ignorance. This can be provided by the wisdom held by responsible parents and/or many others in authority. These same children also show love compassion, humor, laughter, love, and friendship. All these things have to be learnt as well.

As far as we know the brain of a newborn is primarily a blank slate. Anything a human learns is a result of direct experiences or lessons taught. There is nothing innately evil about a human. However, hereditary factors do play a role as well as instincts developed through many thousands of years of evolution. These enhance or inhibit the learning process and hence either increase or decrease the chances of survival.

Your original statement asserted -

There is no good side to humans without morals and God. Left unto himself man is selfish, and gravitates toward evil.

Without the instinctive need for humans to group together and support one another, no form of civilized communities would ever have begun. Beginning with the maternal instincts of mothers. Nearly every species have the same innate needs and instincts. A pride of Lions, a heard of Elephants, a family of Hyenas, etc.

There is no doubt that there are evil people, but you have not proved that people gravitate towards evil if a god is not present. Those with wisdom and the ability to think can see for themselves that evil acts are anti-productive and do not lead to long term survival. I can see this clearly, as do many others who do not follow religions.

Having a set of morals is fine, having a belief in God is not needed for that; otherwise you would have to reason that I am evil. Is that what you wish to claim? If not then how do you explain that I am not evil but am also an atheist?

"I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God. 19As the Scriptures say,

'I will destroy human wisdom
and discard their most brilliant ideas.'

So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe.

These quotes and many like them, e.g. The fool says in his heart there is no God, etc. Are to be expected. In probably every conflict in the history of humanity, propaganda has been a powerful weapon. To those who are fully indoctrinated then these types of phrases are simply a rallying cry used to mock and attempt to humiliate the opposition.

But notice that absolutely no evidence or proofs are referenced and in fact this type of propaganda is also trying to convince YOU that you would be a fool yourself if you expected evidence or proof. Since Christianity KNOWS it cannot prove its case it must do everything it can to discredit its opponents. It has no other choice. Its very much like a political party that has no message of its own so has no choice but to try to trash the opposing party.

But look at the implications: If those with wisdom and knowledge are not to be accepted then Christianity is specifically saying that only the ignorant, stupid, and illiterate, will be saved. Does that include you? Where is the credibility in that?

The real truth is that Christianity must discredit those who seek to learn and find wisdom because such people pose a real and dangerous threat to Christianity. Once people learn to think for themselves then Christianity will be seen as the fraud that it is.

You seem to be frightened of these so-called "myths". But what are you afraid of? That they might start making sense?

My fear is that I am surrounded by so many that believe that fantasies are real. In the same way that I would be concerned for my welfare if the inmates of an insane asylum were assigned to government positions. When so many people ignore reality and believe and run their lives based on fantasy then the results are likely to be unpredictable and potentially quite dangerous.

What if the violence is justified? By the way, you have no grounds for your claim that the Bible describes God as a "sadistic monster". Simply saying that you disagree with the Bible is not enough? You have to slander it by saying it presents some kind of OZ-like uber-villain. Uh... no.

So sending bears to maul young men is not sadistic (delight in cruelty)? If God is omniscient and has perfect wisdom he could use any technique to convince these young men they were in the wrong, diplomacy for example. Given that he could have done anything why did he choose a violent and barbaric approach? This appears like a clear case of sadism.

To my observation that violence is the first choice of the ignorant –

So what? What does this have to do with the existence of God. This is a "straw man" argument. I'm afraid it's irrelevant.

You missed the point. If God is intelligent then violence should be the last resort if ever used, but he seems to use it as a first resort and/or often. My point is that this action is inconsistent with claims made for his perfection and wisdom. IOW such inconsistencies are consistent with his non-existence.

The most intelligent people I know are religious. Sorry.

I’ll refrain from the obvious answer to that. My references were to the questionable intelligence of God.

These are wild opinions based on misunderstanding and anti-religious bigotry. Ad hominem attacks are pointless in a civil debate. My purpose here is to convince you I am right. Not to anger you with slanders.

Then explain why God uses violence so often as stated in the bible as opposed to more rational and peaceful (less evil) techniques? I am not attacking you or your intelligence. Don’t take this personally.

I have been a believer since age seven. To you this somehow makes my views untenable. Since you have such an anti-Christian bias, it is understandable that you would set up atheism as being a prerequisite for intellect. Therefore, in your mind it is thus:

Atheist = intelligent person
Theist = unintelligent fool

No, you don’t understand my position yet or that of atheists.

Atheists range from the most stupid to the most intelligent. You cannot group all atheists together under any category except that they disbelieve in a god of gods.

And yes your views concerning atheists are incomplete and I would suggest that you could never properly understand the atheist position until you try it for yourself. In that respect, yes your views on atheism are untenable.

And you’ve missed my point again about the intelligence issue. My topic was directed at the intelligence of your god and not at Christians. You are trying to impose your own incomplete views of atheism in this debate rather than read what I am saying.

Christians are technically irrational for believing something they cannot know as being true. Since I know many Christians who are highly intelligent then it make no sense for me to call all Christians unintelligent fools, that seems to be what you think atheists would say. And that reflects to a large extent the depth of your indoctrination and the acceptance of Christian propaganda.

Though it probably matters little to you, I am a very skeptical person who tends to over-investigate things before believing them.

If you were truly skeptical then you would not be able to accept claims that a god exists without any proof. Ok, yes I remember, you think you do have proofs. But you know you can’t have any proofs. If there were really any proof then the pope would be screaming this on every TV and radio station in the world. If there were proofs then the term faith would never again be needed. But if you believe your propaganda above “God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom” then you wouldn’t even be trying to find proofs despite your topic in these forums claiming proofs for God.

So what does over-investigate mean? You have shown you don’t understand the atheist position yet. You are far from over-investigating, it looks more like you have only just begun. But no, that isn’t even accurate since you state –

Why do I continue debating you? Partly for entertainment, partly to reinforce in my mind the folly of atheistic arguments (thank you), but mainly because I have this hope that at some point you will wake up and realize that you need to be saved. Hey I can always hope.

You are clearly looking to discredit atheism, complete with a condescending clause, that you said in your opening sentence you wouldn’t use. This isn’t skepticism; this is the precise definition of a bigot (a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices).

And worse, you are proselytizing.

It is my opinion that the concept of "Atheism" has evil qualities. It is not my position that atheists are evil people.

I understand this is your opinion but it is widely shared by many Christians and for many centuries. Atheists have been persecuted, victimized, and executed for their position. Even as recently as the early part of the 20th century it was illegal for atheists to be a witness in a court of law in some states in the USA. Fortunately things have changed and are changing.

What you consider an innocent opinion is a deep-seated Christian hatred for atheists, and is shown as prejudice and intolerance.

But your statement is inconsistent. You cannot say that atheism has evil properties and then state that atheists are not evil. The only way that atheistic evil could manifest itself would be through those who practice atheism. If atheists are not evil then atheism cannot be evil. I think you are simply confused and once again you demonstrate your ignorance of atheism, or rather you have been well conditioned by Christian indoctrination.

There is little doubt that some atheists are truly evil, as were discussed earlier in this post. But clearly famous atheists like Abraham Lincoln, Albert Einstein, Isaac Asimov, and Carl Sagan could not be considered evil. Your mistake is to consider atheism as if it is an institution like Christianity. It isn’t. The temptation is to treat all atheists as if they all share the same traits, they don’t. Atheists can be the most immoral people as well as the most moral and their only common trait is that they all disbelieve in the existence of a god or gods.

For the record... I do not think atheists are immoral evil people. Cris, as a victim of blanket statements, I try to never make them myself.

Not quite right yet. Some atheists are indeed evil and immoral; the link you can’t make is that the evil is because of atheism.

I'm sure most atheists are wonderful loving people. Full of kindness and generosity. However, since there is no God (in their minds) who is to say that is how people SHOULD be? That is my point. There is no basis for the concept of moral absolutes if there is no absolutely moral thing (i.e. God).

And I guess here is where we really reach the meat of the matter.

You are starting from an invalid assumption – that people SHOULD behave in a certain manner, that there must be a set of moral absolutes. The need for a code of morality is perfectly logical and those who can think clearly, have appropriate levels of intelligence, and adequate education, will have little problem understanding this perspective. But effective morality is entirely relative to the changing needs of the human race. Human wisdom, experience, knowledge, and intelligence are perfectly capable of developing rational codes of morality. And such codes must evolve as we learn more about ourselves. We have no need to take examples of morality from ancient texts from 2000+ years ago when justice was largely barbaric. Morality must meet current needs based on current levels of human understanding. The concept of a god giving commandments, perhaps made sense to primitive peoples many centuries ago but no longer. We have no need for these archaic and irrelevant ideas.

I appologise for seeming arrogant sometimes. Occasionally confidence in one's viewpoint can be seen as arrogance. I know. It was not my intent to seem this way. Not at all!

Understood. Thanks.

There are some instances where things turn violent, but it is never (in my mind) unjustified. All the violence is usually the result of sinning against God. This is the way it is. "The wages of sin is death" whether we like it or not. God is not asking us, he is telling us. Here's an analogy: "the wages of fighting a lion with no weapon is death." These are statements of natural fact.

I understand that is part of your doctrine. But as I said before, if god is omnipotent and perfect then he should always be able to find another way. If someone truly understood the implications of ‘sinning’ then they wouldn’t sin. IOW they lack appropriate understanding of the issues. Why wouldn’t such an alleged loving and understanding god spend more effort teaching rather than killing? When I made errors at school because of a lack of understanding I wasn’t punished I just simply took extra lessons. The Christian approach is “if you don’t understand then you die”. The concept has no credibility. But such an extreme dictatorial and authoritarian approach reflects exactly the type of political structures that were in place 2000 years ago. The bible simple reflects these past barbaric principles, which have no relevance today.

Have you read the New Testement? The violent sin-nature that you mentioned cost Jesus his life. Jesus (who was God in the flesh) gave himself up into the hands of violent men. He suffered like few others have. Yet in his dying, he made a way for salvation. To me this is the supreme act of loving sacrifice. All of this was done by God himself. His love for us knows no bounds. Cuz after all he didn't HAVE to do this.

There is just one tiny flaw in this argument. Jesus didn’t die and couldn’t die, since you state he is God and thus immortal? A sacrifice usually means a form of loss, and usually of a permanent nature. What was lost? It is alleged that Jesus still lives and God still exists. What was sacrificed? Did Jesus not know he was God and didn’t know Gods plans? The miracles he is alleged to have performed might have given him a clue though. But if he thought of himself as a man and sacrificed himself for mankind then why is that special? Many people throughout history have willingly sacrificed themselves for those they have loved. Why is their sacrifice any different to that of Jesus?

But that doesn’t make any sense, Jesus clearly knows what is in store for him, so his sacrifice is meaningless since he must know that in a very short while he will be back with his father. The elaborate story of the crucifixion is a pointless fraud. The claim that God gave is only son that we might live is an appeal to the emotions of human who can relate to humans making a sacrifice. But a god making an impossible sacrifice has no meaning.

But the Christian myth depends entirely on the actual existence of Adam and Eve and the first sin that condemned man to death. Without that myth being true then Christianity is entirely pointless. Do you really believe that the entire human race stemmed from Adam and Eve? But even if they did exist why did God not properly instruct Adam and Eve on the implications of their potential actions. Since he is also allegedly omniscient then he would have known what was going to happen, so why did he allow it to happen? Had he not been so apparently incompetent in his teachings he would not then have had to make the gift of his son (that really wasn’t a gift since Jesus was allegedly resurrected).

And how were Adam and Eve expected to know they were doing wrong before they gained knowledge of good and evil?

I do not see the bad in everyone. I just believe I am right, and would be a sorry person if I thought I was onto something great and didn't share it. It is not my intent to brow beat anyone into belief (it can't be done anyway). My internal conflict is just the struggle between the Holy Spirit and my natural sin nature. When I'm closest to God... those are the times I am happiest.

Yes I understand. But I would suggest that a course in psychology, some good books on the power of positive thinking and a good meditation technique would be far more effective. But here we must simply disagree. You believe man is basically bad and must fight against those tendencies. I believe that ignorance leads to erroneous decisions, and that knowledge is the key to enlightenment.

Morality has EVERYTHING to do with God. You are right to some degree, except I think that all of the wonderful things you wrote above are found in Christian families far more prevelantly, if they are truly living "in God". That isn't to say that NO atheists can do this, I'm sure most atheists can do this. It is simply my BELIEF that it is most common in Christian homes.

I don’t have the statistics to say you are right or wrong. But a strong deluded belief can have outwardly perceived positive benefits. A god doesn’t actually have to exist to achieve this state. The experiments with placebos prove this quite nicely. My point is there is no need to believe in a fantasy to achieve the same goals.

You may think it is "good" to care for others and such (and I of course concur). But who are you to disagree with someone who thinks that caring for others is foolish? Who is right? Says who? Since there are no absolutes, how is your worldview better than his? I seem to have trouble making you understand my view on this.

You may have missed my reasoning but it is quite simple. Evolution is primarily about the survival of the fittest. Christians believe they will survive for eternity in paradise by following Christian doctrine. That is the basis for your morality. I also base my morality on the desire to survive just like Christians. I would assert that a desire to not survive is illogical and irrational. I would argue that the only logical form of morality is one where survival is the primary outcome, everything else leads to premature death. Caring for someone supports that logical choice.

I think the notion of atheism must be rejected intellectually in favor of a belief in God. You, on the other hand, want Christianity "destroyed"!

I’d like to see institutions that do not depend on reality replaced by institutions that are based on reason, wisdom and knowledge. Institutions that depend on fantasies are dangerous and threaten the long-term survival of the human race and in terms of rational morality Christianity is immoral.

It's funny, I don't feel near as threatened by atheism as you seem to feel threatened by Christianity.

Of course not since atheists are very much in the minority, around 20% of the worlds population I believe. But there is nothing that says that the majority view is correct. Truth is not determined by a majority vote. Not so long ago most people on the planet believed the world was flat, and only one or two said otherwise. But organizations like the International Atheist Alliance would have been unthinkable a few decades ago. Perhaps you should have some concern.

By the way... have I called for the demise of atheism? Or have I said "It's your choice."

You have said atheism has a tendency towards evil so I assume you would like to see evil removed from the world. But I make no gesture towards tolerance of Christianity. In the same way I suspect you would wouldn’t tolerate a murderer simply because he thinks differently, in the same way I see Christianity as a personal danger to humanity and myself.

Do I not have the right to believe in God?

LOL. Who determines what is right and wrong? But yes, people should have the right to do whatever they wish providing such actions do not interfere with the freedom of others. And here is where I see Christianity is interfering with my freedoms. So yes, you have the right to believe whatever you wish and I have the right to defend myself and a proactive defense should be perfectly justifiable.

Ps. A week ago, my sister-in-law's aunt took her own life with a shotgun blast to the face. She had sent her husband off to the store with a list. When he returned she had committed suicide. The note mentioned a feeling of "despair".

For what it's worth... she was an atheist.

I see others have commented on your statement here and I suspect you regret saying it.

But I will disagree with my fellow atheists here. While you are trying to imply that atheism contributed to her suicide you should also realize that many Christians also despair and commit suicide when they do not receive answers to prayers. But that isn’t my point and I couldn’t find any statistics on suicides that gave a breakdown based on religious beliefs.

I suspect it is indeed more likely that atheists would commit suicide more than Christians. There is nothing that says that reality is kind or that life must be pleasant, or that there is a purpose to life. Christians have deluded themselves with false hopes of an afterlife and have nourished these fantasies and feel safe and secure accordingly. Combine that with a vast number of like-minded people and the corresponding large number of support groups then of course Christians are going to feel happy with their club and delusions.

Atheists do not have any such support system. Atheists tend to reach their beliefs based on their own critical thought processes despite significant pressure from religious groups to think otherwise. Atheists should be applauded for their courage and clear thinking. But the atheist reality is a hard truth and requires recognition that there is no afterlife, that death means a cessation of existence, that there is no wonderful creator father figure to protect them. Is it any wonder that atheists might feel alone and feel despair? You should also easily see why so many people opt for the delusion and live in ignorance rather than face reality.

Have fun
Cris

 

[Cris]

Zero,

you know, the thing is that...these threads might not work out so well. The title itself is a sort of challenge, 'Bible the book of evil', and it might intimidate believers. This will keep them from participating (or posting reasonably useful arguments).

Most threads rarely stay on topic for long. The title was indeed intended to be provocative. But I disagree that that approach discourages theist participation. Those who have strong views about the bible and think they see a weak argument will be all over it. My original intention was to respond to a post about biblical truths Ekimlaw made in some other thread, but I couldn’t find his post, hence I started a new topic. I’ve since learnt a great deal about Ekimlaw from his posts here.

All you will be stuck with is some sympathetic atheists and some overheated (and yelling at the top of their lungs) Christians. Which would not be so good for discussion or exchange of ideas. The idea is mutual respect and cool heads. Just my oh so humble opinion.

That’s an admirable objective, but religion, unlike most other forms of debate is highly charged with emotion. Most religions depend on emotions and discourage the intellect. Christianity is a good example.

But most topics have been explored many times over the history of humanity and we still have no definitive solutions. And most topics you see here are repeats of the same ideas explored many times at sciforums. While my approach on this thread may not seem productive, it is just a way to explore different aspects of old ideas. A shot in the dark if you like.

Any thoughts? Now don't start leveling thermonuclear blasts at me please.

No problem. Just sit back and enjoy the show.

Cris

 

[enton]

The Bible is the book of readers. Now, if you're intention is to become vil, then the Bible is of course the book of evil reader (like you, if you are). As for me, I do read the Bible and I don't take heed to the words of evil characters like Eliphaz when He said "Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? "

 

[audible]

The Bible is the book of readers. Now, if you're intention is to become vil, then the Bible is of course the book of evil reader (like you, if you are). As for me, I do read the Bible and I don't take heed to the words of evil characters like Eliphaz when He said "Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? "

but you do take heed to evil characters like god Gen 6,7: And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 7,4: For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Gen 19,24: Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
just a small few scriptures, there are thousands more.

 

[enton]

but you do take heed to evil characters like god Gen 6,7: And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 7,4: For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Gen 19,24: Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
just a small few scriptures, there are thousands more.

Are you trying to achieve "dreams"? You cannot conclude that the act of God is evil. What would you say if someone from a plane crush survive? (Probably, you'll say "how did he do that?") And what have you said in your thoughts when "Tsunami Phenomena" occured? "Probably you have said "that's the product of nature") And what have you concluded when "SEPT 11 World Trade center explosion" happened? (Probably you've commented, "terrorists were very evil.") :bugeye:
Now, what's my point?
My point is this: God does not act (unreasonably) according to what humans think. Have you never thought that if God let those generation continue on earth, godly people will vanish?