The Anti-Christ?

[Emerald]

Tony,

I think this one particular passage bears repeating:

<font color="red">Jeremiah 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.</font>

Does this ring any bells for you at all? Who declared that he came not to bring peace but a sword? I'm thinking it's the same guy who clearly has no intention of bearing any of <i>your</i> burdens for you:

<font color="red">Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.


Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.</font>

And let's take another look at Jeremiah for confirmation on the "burden" thing:

<font color="red">Jeremiah 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

Jeremiah 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

Jeremiah 23:27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

Jeremiah 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Jeremiah 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

Jeremiah 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

Jeremiah 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.

Jeremiah 23:35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?

Jeremiah 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

Jeremiah 23:37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?

Jeremiah 23:38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;

Jeremiah 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jeremiah 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.</font>

So much for the idea that Jesus bears the burdens of your sins for you. Looks like you're pretty much on your own after all, Tony.

My question to you is, if Jesus didn't come to bear the burden of sinners, what <i>was</i> he here for? The term, "stumbling stone" keeps coming to mind...

Emerald

 

[tony1]

Re: My new story!

Originally posted by grimjester
I hope you enjoyed this story, and made you realize what Christianity more or less says. Sort of a different light. I had fun writing it, and am considering becoming the first Atheist pope. I will need your support.

The first atheist pope?
Just how old are you?

Oh, one last thing, if there is a second coming in my life, I will be fully supporting the Anti-Christ, for at least he says it is ok to be me.

Man, are you missing the point!!

His idea of being OK to be you is that it is OK to be a corpse.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
I think this one particular passage bears repeating:

<font color="red">Jeremiah 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.</font>

Does this ring any bells for you at all? Who declared that he came not to bring peace but a sword?

I did sort of gloss over this verse, since I wasn't as clear on your point as I am now.

Are you trying to get me to think of this verse?
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(Matthew 10:34, KJV).

You can rest assured, I have no illusions that Christianity is a religion of warm fuzzies.
It is a battle.

I'm thinking it's the same guy who clearly has no intention of bearing any of <i>your</i> burdens for you:

<font color="red">Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.</font>

Of course not.
His promise is that he was going to give us a burden...
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Matthew 11:29,30, KJV).

And let's take another look at Jeremiah for confirmation on the "burden" thing:

<font color="red">Jeremiah 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.</font>

So much for the idea that Jesus bears the burdens of your sins for you. Looks like you're pretty much on your own after all, Tony.

Oh no. This is something that I truly never thought I would run across.

The word "burden" does mean "load," however the phrase "burden of the Lord" means a prophecy.

Yet your point that I am on my own still stands.
The section of scripture you quoted is a rebuke to false prophets who claim to have the burden of the Lord but don't. This would still apply today, thus I should rely on God myself rather than trusting in prophets who simply call themselves prophets.

My question to you is, if Jesus didn't come to bear the burden of sinners, what <i>was</i> he here for? The term, "stumbling stone" keeps coming to mind...

He was here apparently to trade burdens rather than to simply do everything.

It is a good thing that the term "stumbling stone" comes to mind, since in watching you traversing scripture, I can see that stumbling is quite easy.

That is the point, of course.
There is no way that you can understand scripture without the help of God.
You are perhaps experiencing much the same thing as satan when he was tempting Jesus, while quoting scripture.
He missed the point of what he was quoting, though.

Salvation isn't possible for him, but it is available for you.

 

[Boris]

Grim,

I liked the allegory. If you have some writing talent, I think you have an idea for a very good play. Prisons, generally, make for poignant backdrops in discussions of condemnation, redemption, freedom and morality. If you develop your idea into a full-blown tale, you could have the makings of a new literary classic.

 

[Tiassa]

Thank you kindly, Tony ....

After all, if you would refer to the post from which these questions are derived, in response to Sir Loone:

Jesus saves!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only 'cause his Daddy set him up for it. I guess the kid needed a job. It's not as if God could make a mistake, right? So he must have wanted people to defy him, to establish and re-establish covenants, and finally send his own son to be tortured and murdered in an act of redemption for a situation that God himself chose.

Thus, No, God does not make mistakes; thus, no, God does not learn. Therefore, it was planned that humankind should fall into sin and require salvation. The cycle of punishment and reward is an inherent part of God's plan. Jesus only saves because God decided that it should be so. That is the whole of the assertion from which the questions of God's infallibility and immutability are derived. Seems like you agree with the Catholics on a couple things.

--Tiassa

 

[Emerald]

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
Are you trying to get me to think of this verse?
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(Matthew 10:34, KJV).

You can rest assured, I have no illusions that Christianity is a religion of warm fuzzies. It is a battle.

Yes, that was it. But what I want to know is how you feel about being deceived by God? And how do you feel about your brethren being deceived by God? Doesn't that bother you in the least?

His promise is that he was going to give us a burden...
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Matthew 11:29,30, KJV).

So you're okay with the idea that Jesus didn't come to bear the burden of your sins? That he is <i>not</i> the rock of your salvation? That you will have to pay for whatever harm you've done yourself? If so, you are, once again, the only Christian I've ever known to accept that responsibility and my hat is off to you, sir.

The word "burden" does mean "load," however the phrase "burden of the Lord" means a prophecy.

Yet your point that I am on my my own still stands.
The section of scripture you quoted is a rebuke to false prophets who claim to have the burden of the Lord but don't. This would still apply today, thus I should rely on God myself rather than trusting in prophets who simply call themselves prophets.

Well, that wasn't quite my point. When I said that you're on your own, I wasn't saying anything about being on your own in determining who is or is not a false prophet (although I would have to agree on that point as well). Apparently I'm not down with the slang that was in vogue several thousand years ago. Did you learn that sitting in a church pew by any chance? Just wondering. But maybe the writer intended a sort of double entendre when he used the phrase, "burden of the Lord"? I say this because the RSV translates Jeremiah 23:33 this way:

<font color="red">"When one of this people, or a prophet, or a priest asks you, 'What is the burden of the LORD?' you shall say to them, 'You are the burden, and I will cast you off, says the LORD.' "</font>

Make no mistake - the Lord wants no additional burdens heaped on him. Anyway, my point was that nobody died for your sins, and that should be pretty obvious by now. That burden is yours and yours alone. Jesus was not God incarnate, and if he was anyone, he was Satan or the Son of Satan, or at the very least, the Antichrist. He was a stumblingblock and a deceiver. He holds the keys to hell and death, and seems more than happy to open those doors to you when the time comes. Why do you insist on following him? What could he possibly have to offer you?

Emerald

 

[tony1]

Re: Thank you kindly, Tony ....

Originally posted by tiassa
Seems like you agree with the Catholics on a couple things.

Nobody's perfect.
The Catholics aren't perfectly wrong.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
Yes, that was it. But what I want to know is how you feel about being deceived by God? And how do you feel about your brethren being deceived by God? Doesn't that bother you in the least?

I might be bothered if I could see the deception you see.
I don't.
You may be thinking that I'm supposed to think that because Jeremiah thought God was being deceptive that I'm supposed to think that, too.
I don't.
You may be jumping a little ahead in the line of reasoning that you are following.

So you're okay with the idea that Jesus didn't come to bear the burden of your sins?

This is an interesting question.

For every man shall bear his own burden.
(Galatians 6:5, KJV).

Actually, I'm starting to wonder what you mean by "burden of sins."
It appears to be a new concept that just does not compute.

That he is not the rock of your salvation?

Why would I assume this based on his bringing a sword?

That you will have to pay for whatever harm you've done yourself?

This appears to be a no-brainer.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Romans 3:23, KJV).

Presumably, the above would include me, and you.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23, KJV).

Presumably, the above would apply to me, and you.

Thus, since all have sinned and the wages of sin is death, therefore, presumably, all would die, me, and you.
The existence of cemeteries would tend to support this.
Thus it appears that I do pay the price for my sins.

Jesus came to save me from my sins...

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(Matthew 1:21, KJV).

Sort of a cosmic get-out-of-jail-free card, if you will.

It doesn't look like the Bible says anywhere that I will be saved from the punishment for my sins.

If so, you are, once again, the only Christian I've ever known to accept that responsibility and my hat is off to you, sir.

No sense tipping your hat, it looks like a no-choice situation.

Unless you figure you can avoid death, somehow.

When I said that you're on your own, I wasn't saying anything about being on your own in determining who is or is not a false prophet (although I would have to agree on that point as well). Apparently I'm not down with the slang that was in vogue several thousand years ago. Did you learn that sitting in a church pew by any chance? Just wondering.

No, I didn't.
But now that you ask...
Nahum 1:1, Habakkuk 1:1, Zechariah 9:1, Zechariah 12:1.

But maybe the writer intended a sort of double entendre when he used the phrase, "burden of the Lord"? I say this because the RSV translates Jeremiah 23:33 this way:

<font color="red">"When one of this people, or a prophet, or a priest asks you, 'What is the burden of the LORD?' you shall say to them, 'You are the burden, and I will cast you off, says the LORD.' "</font>

Make no mistake - the Lord wants no additional burdens heaped on him.

Aside from the fact that this was being spoken to the Jews on their way to Babylon, you may have a point there.
Actually, as I write this, this is starting to look like a very intriguing issue.

It does look like you may be right about this. Interestingly, I've never given this any thought before, so this would fall into the eye-opener category I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, my point was that nobody died for your sins, and that should be pretty obvious by now.

This is quite a leap from the Lord not wanting additional burdens, to not dying for our sins.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(1 Corinthians 15:3, KJV).

That burden is yours and yours alone. Jesus was not God incarnate, and if he was anyone, he was Satan or the Son of Satan, or at the very least, the Antichrist.

I realize that you've been itching to get to this part of your point, but there are a few steps missing, particularly the one where you attempt to prove that Christ = Antichrist.

He was a stumblingblock and a deceiver.

Stumblingblock, yes. Deceiver, no.

He holds the keys to hell and death, and seems more than happy to open those doors to you when the time comes.

Well, it should be obvious why I would be wanting those doors opened.

There will be no difficulty for anyone to enter those doors; you won't need a key to die, after all.
Exiting is much tougher.
That's where the keys come in handy.

Why do you insist on following him? What could he possibly have to offer you?

It's the absence of the EXIT sign over death's door.

You'll have to know the doorman to get out, you know, the guy with the keys.

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by tony1

Perhaps you could give us the meaning for the sun rising in the west?

Hmm. You seem having such great skill in decoding ancient text from the Bible, yet you can't understand the meaning of "sun rising in the west"? Please ask any 8th grader for further helps.

You seem to be certain that God doesn't exist, so you must be able to prove it, at least to yourself.

Well, that's all I needed, isn't it?

Nope, it's all accounted for on Judgment Day.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2 Peter 3:10, KJV).

Notice where it says "heavens"?
That includes all the other planets, solar systems, galaxies, etc.

Are you implying that living outside of Earth is same as living in heavens?

 

[Emerald]

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
I might be bothered if I could see the deception you see. I don't. You may be thinking that I'm supposed to think that because Jeremiah thought God was being deceptive that I'm supposed to think that, too. I don't.
You may be jumping a little ahead in the line of reasoning that you are following.

There are a number of examples of deception (perceived or otherwise) by God:

<font color="red">Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.


Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.</font>

For every man shall bear his own burden.
(Galatians 6:5, KJV).

Actually, I'm starting to wonder what you mean by "burden of sins." It appears to be a new concept that just does not compute.

It's a popular Christian concept, and once again, you're the only Christian I know of who is apparently unfamiliar with it. For enlightenment in this subject, please read <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1557/burden.html">The Burden</a>.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23, KJV).

Presumably, the above would apply to me, and you.

Like I've said a hundred times before, eternal life may not be all it's cracked up to be. Leave me out of it, okay?

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(Matthew 1:21, KJV).

Sort of a cosmic get-out-of-jail-free card, if you will.

It doesn't look like the Bible says anywhere that I will be saved from the punishment for my sins.

Is that kind of like a "get out of school free card" so you can take a trip to Pleasure island, like the truant boys in Pinochio (who were later turned into jackasses)?

I realize that you've been itching to get to this part of your point, but there are a few steps missing, particularly the one where you attempt to prove that Christ = Antichrist.

Stumblingblock, yes. Deceiver, no.

It would seem that Jesus was assigned a rather adversarial role, wouldn't you agree? If he was sent as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that many among them would stumble and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken, how do you think he would accomplish this without being <i>deceptive</i>? And what exactly is the role of the Antichrist?

Well, it should be obvious why I would be wanting those doors opened. There will be no difficulty for anyone to enter those doors; you won't need a key to die, after all. Exiting is much tougher. That's where the keys come in handy. It's the absence of the EXIT sign over death's door. You'll have to know the doorman to get out, you know, the guy with the keys.

On the other hand, the doorman may just tell you to depart from him because you never had any idea of who he really was. You were only worshipping the <i>image</i> of what you <i>thought</i> he should be. Hmmm...I believe that makes him an <i>idol</i>.

Emerald

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Please ask any 8th grader for further helps.

Sorry, I thought I was asking one.

Well, that's all I needed, isn't it?

*chuckle*
You got me there.

Are you implying that living outside of Earth is same as living in heavens?

No.
Given that "heavens and earth" is all there is, I would be "saying" that.
It is possible to quibble about some planet which exists 245 billion lightyears from here, but how would you go to live on such a planet anyway?

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
There are a number of examples of deception (perceived or otherwise) by God:

<font color="red">Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.


Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.</font>

I didn't mean to suggest that I was unaware of any deception arising from God, just toward me and my brethren.

Good quotes, though. More people should ponder the ramifications of such statements.

It's a popular Christian concept, and once again, you're the only Christian I know of who is apparently unfamiliar with it. For enlightenment in this subject, please read The Burden.

It certainly tears at the heartstrings, but such tearing is not necessarily scriptural.

Like I've said a hundred times before, eternal life may not be all it's cracked up to be. Leave me out of it, okay?

Death appears to be your choice, and since it is the other option, a valid choice.

Is that kind of like a "get out of school free card" so you can take a trip to Pleasure island, like the truant boys in Pinochio (who were later turned into jackasses)?

Cute, but no.

It would seem that Jesus was assigned a rather adversarial role, wouldn't you agree? If he was sent as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that many among them would stumble and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken, how do you think he would accomplish this without being <i>deceptive</i>?

By hiding the truth out in the open.

And what exactly is the role of the Antichrist?

Just my own opinion, but perhaps to be a rallying point for those who choose to be antichristian.

As you can see on this board, antichristians have difficulty in really getting going unless they have a Christian to be "anti" to.
The Antichrist will be a sort of a "hero" or "leader" to the antichristians, to "lead" them into destruction.

On the other hand, the doorman may just tell you to depart from him because you never had any idea of who he really was. You were only worshipping the <i>image</i> of what you <i>thought</i> he should be. Hmmm...I believe that makes him an <i>idol</i>.

Hey, what a brilliant point!
More should consider this very thought.

Kudos for the clever way you tied this into the "idol" thing in the other thread.

But a valid point, nonetheless.
It would make him an idol, if you were worshipping the image.
Mind sort of wanders to the last time I went to Catholic supply store and saw many sappy pictures of "Jesus."

I see your point, and it is a good one.

 

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by tony1

Sorry, I thought I was asking one.

Someone on this board please explain the meaning of "Sun rising in the west" to tony1. He seems can't understand it.

Given that "heavens and earth" is all there is, I would be "saying" that.
It is possible to quibble about some planet which exists 245 billion lightyears from here, but how would you go to live on such a planet anyway?

Ok, if heavens include everything outside earth, then living on Mars is same as living in heavens.

If heavens do not include Earth and other planets, then living on Mars will escape the judgement day because only heavens and Earth will be destroyed.

Also, 245 billion lightyears implies the age of the universe is at least 245 billion years.

 

[grimjester]

My age?

My age really is not important. If I wanted everyone to know how old I was, I would have put it in my profile.

And yes, an Atheistic pope is a possibility, as long as no one knows you are truly an atheist. Such as the fact there was a woman pope (Course, when they figured out she was a...she, they took it away from her). I suppose the sarcasm and humor went over everyones head.

Oh, and since we are on the topic, of having to believe in a god, and then disprove that. I am God Tonyh. To disprove it, you have to accept it (according to your idea that atheists have to accept god, before they can argue against him). So run with that.

 

[Emerald]

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
I didn't mean to suggest that I was unaware of any deception arising from God, just toward me and my brethren.

Everyone thinks they've got the inside scoop, and it's the other guy who has no clue what's really going on. Nobody is <i>ever</i> deceived by God - just ask them.

By hiding the truth out in the open.

Deception is deception, and the best lies are truths that are hidden right out in the open. Take the brass serpent reference that we are discussing in "The Definition of a Cult" thread, for example - it's right out there in front of God and everybody, so to speak, and yet few Christians will see it! As my mother is so fond of saying to me, "There is none so blind as he who will not see".

As you can see on this board, antichristians have difficulty in really getting going unless they have a Christian to be "anti" to.

That goes both ways - it takes two to Tango, and it wouldn't be much fun to Tango by oneself. At the present time, you're the main reason I keep coming here, Tony. There just doesn't seem to be anyone else from the opposite camp who likes to Tango.

Hey, what a brilliant point!
More should consider this very thought.

Kudos for the clever way you tied this into the "idol" thing in the other thread.

Hey thanks, Tony.

Emerald

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Someone on this board please explain the meaning of "Sun rising in the west" to tony1. He seems can't understand it.

You haven't thought this thing through very well.
Sun rising in the west, since the beginning of time?
With the other planets orbiting the same way or the other way?
Sun rising in the west, starting now?
What a mess doing a switch like that!
What would it really mean?

mars...heavens...earth...mars

OK.

Also, 245 billion lightyears implies the age of the universe is at least 245 billion years.

Since when is the age of something tied to its size?

Originally posted by grimjester
And yes, an Atheistic pope is a possibility, as long as no one knows you are truly an atheist.

A dilemma...
Lemma 1: The Catholics might not recognize an atheist.
Lemma 2: Being an atheist pope among theists might be tough, regardless

I am God Tonyh. To disprove it, you have to accept it (according to your idea that atheists have to accept god, before they can argue against him).

Funny, yet sad.
According to my actual idea that an atheist has to believe in a God and then reject him:
I believe in God, and I reject that you're him.

Originally posted by Emerald
Everyone thinks they've got the inside scoop, and it's the other guy who has no clue what's really going on. Nobody is <i>ever</i> deceived by God - just ask them.

This forum alone should be proof of that.

Deception is deception, and the best lies are truths that are hidden right out in the open.

OK, I'll have to bite again.
How is that which is true, and out in the open, a lie?

That goes both ways - it takes two to Tango, and it wouldn't be much fun to Tango by oneself. At the present time, you're the main reason I keep coming here, Tony. There just doesn't seem to be anyone else from the opposite camp who likes to Tango.

I suspected as much.
BTW, I look forward to some of the stuff you have to say.
You apply some unique twists to things.

Hey thanks, Tony.

No problem.

 

[Emerald]

Originally posted by tony1
OK, I'll have to bite again. How is that which is true, and out in the open, a lie?

I'm referring to that truth which is stated in such a way that it goes over everybody's head. For example, did you see the movie, "The Sixth Sense"? How about, "The Usual Suspects"? If you saw either of these movies, you'll have some idea of what I mean when I say that the truth is right in front of you, right out there in the open, and yet it is presented to you so artfully, that you don't see it. At the end of the movie, you realize you were deceived, although the truth was staring you in the face all along. It's kind of fun when that happens with movies, but I'm not so sure you'll appreciate it when you arrive at the end of your sojourn on this earth and find you've been deceived.

You may want to take a fresh look at this truth:

<font color="red">Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.</font>

BTW, I look forward to some of the stuff you have to say. You apply some unique twists to things.

I'm always delighted to be of service.

Emerald

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
It's kind of fun when that happens with movies, but I'm not so sure you'll appreciate it when you arrive at the end of your sojourn on this earth and find you've been deceived.

You may be saying more than you realize here.

You may want to take a fresh look at this truth:

<font color="red">Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.</font>

I assume that you are hinting that "you" means me.

OTOH, it is incumbent on the hearer to hear.

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
(Mark 4:23, KJV).

 

[Emerald]

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
OTOH, it is incumbent on the hearer to hear.

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
(Mark 4:23, KJV).

Exactly - so read this aloud and <i>listen</i> to what you are saying; start with a clean slate and try not to make any assumptions about who is the master of the house, or whether or not any of those outside the door <i>really</i> ever ate or drank anything in his presence:

<font color="red">Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.</font>

Do you see anything different yet?

Emerald

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
Exactly - so read this aloud and <i>listen</i> to what you are saying; start with a clean slate and try not to make any assumptions about who is the master of the house, or whether or not any of those outside the door <i>really</i> ever ate or drank anything in his presence:

Sure, sounds like something interesting.

<font color="red">Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.</font>

The bolded "I" in verse 24 is the Lord, seeing as the questioner in verse 23 is calling him that and verse 24 is the start of the answer.

The bolded "you" in verse 24 is the questioner of verse 23.

The bolded "ye" in verse 25 is the questioner of verse 23 and unspecified others which I will call Group X.

The bolded "he" of verse 25 is the master of the house.
Of course, Group X is calling the master of the house, "Lord."

The bolded "you" of verse 25 is Group X, to whom the master of the house, the Lord, is saying "I don't know you."

The bolded "ye" of verse 26 is again Group X, but now they are describing themselves as having eaten and drunk in his (the Lord's) presence AND as owning the streets in which he (the Lord) taught.

Thus, Group X includes the questioner of verse 23 and the Jews whose streets Jesus taught in.

The bolded "he" in verse 27 is again the master of the house, who was being referred to as the Lord.
He is again telling Group X to depart from him, the master of the house.

The bolded "ye" and "you yourselves" are again referring to Group X, which they've been referring to all along.

Thus Group X, or the Jews of the day, are going to be in rough shape.

Do you see anything different yet?

This is a different way of doing things that looks very useful.
I can't say whether I see what it is you're wanting me to see, but that could be our differing POV.

I can't help thinking that somehow "you" was supposed to turn from the Jews to "me."
Unless, you're trying to get me to think of "you" as referring to you?