Syria September 2015 ~ What's up?

If it was that easy to conduct biological warfare on an epidemic scale, I think it would have already happened a long time ago by pure accident. Yes, it's possible ISIS could infect someone and send them over, and they could infect dozens of others in the process, but most nations have safeguards against such measures, and it usually takes a lot more than just a few sick people for diseases to spread and become difficult to control.

it depends on the bio weapon employed...and the naivety of the intended victims.

Example:
The only reason the Ebola issue in Africa was contained was due to "good faith" and "good will" and no one maliciously taking advantage of the situation. Once Good will and faith are lacking... anything is possible.


ISIS isn't known to have any WMD's other than whatever they've been able to scrape together from sites Saddam Hussein abandoned more than 20 years ago, and they certainly don't have any modern means of weaponizing whatever they have or delivering it in an effective way. On the other hand, Bashar Assad is known to have massive arsenals of chemical and biological weapons traditionally pointed at Israel, he has already used these WMD's to kill thousands of Syrian civilians while Russian thugs cover up for him on RT and at the UN, plus he has the missiles needed to deliver them in lethal doses over large areas, making Assad a far greater WMD threat than ISIS.
IS has demonstrated a suicidal quest. They have access to biological material ( Via Saudi Arabia ~ Aka MERS). So I ask given the degree of brutality and violence already demonstrated, what is stopping them?

And then you want to tie this all in to a Malaysian aircraft that by all indications crashed into the ocean from the loss of oxygen pressure in the pilot's cabin, just because another aircraft got shot down by some droopy-eyed drunk rapists occupying eastern Ukraine? The much more plausible story is that Russia has no game plan other than to use military force wherever possible while attempting to chisel away at America's prestige, and ISIS is nothing more than an excuse for them to impose a puppet dictatorship on Syrians who don't like their culture and politics.
The timing of these extraordinary events is way to close to ignore. To consider them as mere coincidence would be folly IMO.
 
... I doubt that Bashar Hafez al-Assad is quite the bogyman that western propaganda would have us believe. ...
Nor was Saddam - In fact Iraq was the most liberal Arab state. Women wore western style cloths, needed no male escort to go out in the evening, He used the oil income to fill food depots where the poor could get their food needs for free, etc. Most importantly from a western POV was he quickly eliminated any political groups like those that are there now as terrorist, that might challenge his power.

US has made a complete mess of the mid east - failed as did not understand the basic extended family political structure prevalent there. For example many must have known where Saddam was hiding - were supplying his needs for months, but millions of dollars offered for information did not get a single one to come forward and tell - you don't "rat" on a family member.

Putin has used US's failure brilliantly - He is the only defending the legally elected government at their request. He is for something, not just against some thing. After years of stupidity, US is finally realizing that Assad is essential - the only government with an army, with a post office, a police force, etc. - with all the needed organizational structure of a government there.
 
Nor was Saddam - In fact Iraq was the most liberal Arab state. Women wore western style cloths, needed no male escort to go out in the evening, He used the oil income to fill food depots where the poor could get their food needs for free, etc. Most importantly from a western POV was he quickly eliminated any political groups like those that are there now as terrorist, that might challenge his power.

US has made a complete mess of the mid east - failed as did not understand the basic extended family political structure prevalent there. For example many must have known where Saddam was hiding - were supplying his needs for months, but millions of dollars offered for information did not get a single one to come forward and tell - you don't "rat" on a family member.

Putin has used US's failure brilliantly - He is the only defending the legally elected government at their request. He is for something, not just against some thing. After years of stupidity, US is finally realizing that Assad is essential - the only government with an army, with a post office, a police force, etc. - with all the needed organizational structure of a government there.
is there a dictator and thug you won't defend? seriously have you met a despot you didn't like? Not saying Assad's not the legit entity for governing but still the man was brutal tyrant who killed thousands. kind of like your bestie putin
 
coupl'a stray thoughts:
I doubt that Bashar Hafez al-Assad is quite the bogyman that western propaganda would have us believe.
I tend to agree. ( a qualified Doctor ) There is reason to believe he is being severely influenced by his Brother General Maher.

When we helped topple the leaders of Libya and Iraq, more death and chaos ensued. ...And continues still........
Why would anyone expect a different/better result this time?
Evangelizing democracy is almost as bad as evangelizing religion...
People generally have very little ability to cope with the power given to them regards democracy. Even in countries that have been democratic for ages still have serious issues with the empowerment offerred to the masses.

We were wrong once, then wrong again, but surely this time will be different!
"We're due man!"
Either really stupid, or really Machiavellian?
The "Arab spring" is poking up through the seat cushion and becoming a real pain in the ass.

Until the USA pulls it's self righteous, morality waving, over sympathetic head in the world is going to continue to pay accordingly.
Ironically, IMO, an over indulgence in sympathy is one of the USA's greatest problems.

On one hand you have the incredibly aggressive economic drive (consumer capitalism) that shows no mercy and then on the other you have the incredible self righteous sympathizing for others plight. A serious conflicting dichotomy.
and perfect recipe for the birth of terrorism... (I'll explain this thought more if wanted)
 
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I would remind all that the bloodiest war in U.S. history was our "civil" war.

to take today's rhetoric back 150 years:
Lincoln must go, he is slaughtering his country's citizens.
 
US has made a complete mess of the mid east - failed as did not understand the basic extended family political structure prevalent there. For example many must have known where Saddam was hiding - were supplying his needs for months, but millions of dollars offered for information did not get a single one to come forward and tell - you don't "rat" on a family member.
I agree that USA has failed and continues to fail to understand the competitive tribal nature of the peoples of the Middle East ~ Patriarchal tribalism is the reality, under the guise of "Government".
Patriarchal Tribalism is not the same as totalitarianism or dictatorship as the West seems to interpret tribal (family) leadership relationships. IMO
 
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A micro example given by a Lebanese friend the other day.
Not long ago a family (read : tribe) in Lebanon struggled valiantly to set up a business manufacturing and selling "nails" nation wide. They provided much needed employment for many other wise destitute persons.
They sold nails at a locally fair price of x dollars per kg.
A Company in the USA decided to offload (import) nails at a x/2 price per kg ( well under the cost of manufacture ) to secure it's market, thus wiping out this struggling business.
Numerous persons were forced into severe hardship and the otherwise successful extended, family ( tribal ) business was wound up.
Subsequent hatred for anything USA evolves into terrorism. Due to the unconscionable actions of a minor USA company hell bent on market dominance.
Next thing you know the embittered unemployed persons join some anti USA extremist group...
 
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it depends on the bio weapon employed...and the naivety of the intended victims.

Example:
The only reason the Ebola issue in Africa was contained was due to "good faith" and "good will" and no one maliciously taking advantage of the situation. Once Good will and faith are lacking... anything is possible.

That's not true at all, there were lots of people returning to the US from Africa who tried to hide symptoms of Ebola-like illnesses and avoid medical detentions, and some who even resisted detention and fought in the courts over the issue even after showing symptoms. This isn't a Harrison Ford movie where a seemingly healthy person shows up and next thing an entire town is on the verge of being bombed flat to prevent contagion.

IS has demonstrated a suicidal quest.

That's just silly propaganda western governments like to sell to voters who don't bother learning anything of substance about the middle east. ISIS has the goal of establishing a medieval-style Islamic caliphate, which is indeed unacceptable to anyone who values democracy, religious freedom and pluralism, but it's not suicidal. Assad kills far more innocents every day, he just does it with less flourish so as to capitalize on short attention spans.

They have access to biological material ( Via Saudi Arabia ~ Aka MERS). So I ask given the degree of brutality and violence already demonstrated, what is stopping them?

The simplest and most logical expanation is that they simply don't have the weapons and capabilities you accuse them of having.

The timing of these extraordinary events is way to close to ignore. To consider them as mere coincidence would be folly IMO.

There's nothing extraordinary about an airline losing 2 planes in a month, especially when it's a crappy third-world airline with a dumb habit of flying over conflict zones to save fuel.

Furthermore, the idea that ISIS would need a crashed commercial plane loaded with passengers to fly out of Malaysia and crash in the Indian Ocean, and for drunk Russians to shoot down another one over Ukraine, just so they could obtain bioweapons you say the Saudis would happily hand over to them in any case... HUH?! :?
 
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Actually yes, it would be ethnic cleansing. You need to go look up ethnic cleansing in the dictionary, because it includes the targeting of religious groups and violates international humanitarian law as much as targeting people for their race.
Maybe it is part of Newspeak, but I prefer common sense, and if a cleansing for religious reasons is named ethnic cleansing, even if it has nothing to do with ethnicity, this is nonsense.
If you think it's not a sectarian war, you've neither listened to the words of the Alawite leaders and their allies, nor Hezbollah's racist propaganda, nor Iran's.
Actually it is mainly a war agains Wahabi fundamentalism. Wahabism is a religious sect, so, indeed, one can name it a sectarian war. Except that this suggests a symmetry, which does not exist. Because on Assads side there are very different religious sects.
You didn't even mention Arab Sunnis when describing the core supporters of Bashar Assad,
I have mentioned those who simply have to side with Assad if they don't want to be killed. Sunnis have a choice here, Christs, Alewites and Shiites do not have such a choice. Large parts of Assads army are Sunnis, by the way.
documented by Human Rights Watch and several other recognized, credible international organizations.
HRW as reliable, LOL. Here an actual example of such credible fakery: https://twitter.com/SyriaCivilDef/status/649226960753836033

As usual, not without Nazi speech:
those drunk flat-headed neanderthals you send to occupy other countries
Oh and if you want to see neo-Nazis, go walking around Moscow with a pro-gay rights sign; they'll be all over you like flies to a turd in minutes, with Putin's explicit blessing.
Nobody would care about this, the Russian gays have better ideas what to do, namely to have fun, see http://moscow.gay.ru/part/?5

Putin's military is already in Syria and it doesn't have any UN support
Here I have indeed misinterpreted a claim, it was, of course, that Russia will act only if invited by the legal powers of a state or based on an UN resolution.
If Russia and Assad stick to bombing ISIS areas and leave civilian populations elsewhere, that would be acceptable to most of the world. By all indications, that's not what they're setting up for, and ISIS isn't even the main target.
Oh, it would be really horrible if Russia would attack Al Qaida. Last but not least, they are the best friends of the US. Sorry that I do not really care about the preservation of Al Qaida.

By the way, it is not really clear if IS rules, for example, in Rastan:
http://fair.org/home/no-isis-where-...ast-week-when-isis-was-killing-gay-men-there/
 
That's not true at all, there were lots of people returning to the US from Africa who tried to hide symptoms of Ebola-like illnesses and avoid medical detentions, and some who even resisted detention and fought in the courts over the issue even after showing symptoms. This isn't a Harrison Ford movie where a seemingly healthy person shows up and next thing an entire town is on the verge of being bombed flat to prevent contagion.



That's just silly propaganda western governments like to sell to voters who don't bother learning anything of substance about the middle east. ISIS has the goal of establishing a medieval-style Islamic caliphate, which is indeed unacceptable to anyone who values democracy, religious freedom and pluralism, but it's not suicidal. Assad kills far more innocents every day, he just does it with less flourish so as to capitalize on short attention spans.



The simplest and most logical expanation is that they simply don't have the weapons and capabilities you accuse them of having.



There's nothing extraordinary about an airline losing 2 planes in a month, especially when it's a crappy third-world airline with a dumb habit of flying over conflict zones to save fuel.

Furthermore, the idea that ISIS would need a crashed commercial plane loaded with passengers to fly out of Malaysia and crash in the Indian Ocean, and for drunk Russians to shoot down another one over Ukraine, just so they could obtain bioweapons you say the Saudis would happily hand over to them in any case... HUH?! :?

I am heartened to know you think my thoughts absurd. I can now sleep easy at night knowing that IS are merely bluffing...and the world alliance against IS is deluded in believing IS is a significant and credible threat.

The USA alone is spending 10 million USD a day on a media hoax... bah!

Seriously, if IS was just another "common" terrorist organization why the global stink about them on such a massive scale do you think?
Why are the worlds Governments totally spooked by the IS phenomena?
 
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ISIL are nation builders, carving out chunks of extant nations to create a new nation. Terrorism is just one of the tools in their tool-kit.
The boundaries of the extant nations were set by European powers while carving up the Ottoman empire.
How dare the locals think that they have the right to mess with what was already done?
Do they not realize that only Europeans are allowed to create nations?

Damned upstarts!
 
ISIL are nation builders, carving out chunks of extant nations to create a new nation. Terrorism is just one of the tools in their tool-kit.
The boundaries of the extant nations were set by European powers while carving up the Ottoman empire.
How dare the locals think that they have the right to mess with what was already done?
Do they not realize that only Europeans are allowed to create nations?

Damned upstarts!

I think someone here summed it up quite well when he stated something to the effect of:
"The world can not allow a nation that is devoted to "global religio-sectarian genocide" to be established any where".

In a deeper philosophical/theosophical sense this is all about a fight to win GOD's favor by doing what is "believed" to be God's will.

In case you haven't noticed the label "God" is in the press just about every day. In fact I would suggest that in a very deep sense it is about man-kinds relationship with God that is in focus. (regardless of religious persuasion - if any)
A enhanced form of collective and individual "God consciousness" leading to all sorts of problems.
 
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...
"The world can not allow a nation that is devoted to "global religio-sectarian genocide" to be established any where".

In a deeper philosophical/theosophical sense this is all about a fight to win GOD's favor by doing what is "believed" to be God's will.

In case you haven't noticed the label "God" is in the press just about every day. In fact I would suggest that in a very deep sense it is about man-kinds relationship with God that is in focus. (regardless of religious persuasion - if any)
A enhanced form of collective and individual "God consciousness" leading to all sorts of problems.

Zealots can easily be viewed as mentally ill. Whether wearing the guise of religion, or the uniforms of the police or military, or the suits of prosecutors, or the morally superior pompous arrogance of politicians they are a cancer on the human psyche.
As long as history can take us, zealots have ever been active.
The problem of how to react, and what to do with/to them has remained.
 
coupl'a stray thoughts:
I doubt that Bashar Hafez al-Assad is quite the bogyman that western propaganda would have us believe.

I'm inclined to agree.

He's certainly a dictator. He can be brutal when he believes his regime is threatened. You wouldn't want to find yourself in one of his prisons. He's favored members of his Alawite sect for higher government and military positions, which Syria's Sunni majority resents.

But the loose talk about how he's 'killed hundreds of thousands of his own people' is foolish in my opinion. Those people died in the Syrian civil war. He didn't start it and he isn't responsible for all the deaths that happen in a war that others forced on him.

It's true that his military has bombed civilian areas pretty indiscriminately. But those were civilian areas in which rebel forces were sheltering and from which they were attacking Syrian forces. One of the things this war has revealed is that the Syrian air force is not very good at close air support. That's one reason why the Russian air force has begun helping them, bringing a precision air attack capability to the battle.

In Assad's behalf, it can be said that he's relatively secular in the sense that his government didn't try to impose Islamic rule. His regime has always been tolerant of religious minorities, which isn't surprising since he's a member of one. Christians (about 10% of Syria's population) only come under attack when Islamist rebels seize their neighborhoods. The Druze generally support Assad.

When we helped topple the leaders of Libya and Iraq, more death and chaos ensued. ...And continues still........
Why would anyone expect a different/better result this time?

One thing that events in Iraq and Libya, Egypt and Yemen should have taught us, is the danger of power-vacuums in that part of the world. Dictators aren't the worst things that can happen in those countries. Overthrowing dictators can open the door to things that are even worse. Countries can unravel into failed states, into all-against-all anarchy. And those most ready to step into Western-created vacuums are usually the radical Islamists.

We were wrong once, then wrong again, but surely this time will be different!

What's that old saying about insanity? Doing the same disfunctional thing over and over again, in expectation that things will turn out differently this last time?

Either really stupid, or really Machiavellian?
The "Arab spring" is poking up through the seat cushion and becoming a real pain in the ass.

Western leaders are blinded by their own wishful thinking, by their own dreamy idealism.

George W. Bush overthrew Saddam Hussein in the expectation that the Iraqi people wanted liberty and democracy, and that they would welcome US troops as liberators. He expected that free elections could be set up in a matter of months and US troops would be home within a year. And he believed that a new progressive and free Iraq would serve as a beacon to the whole Middle East, with oppressive regimes toppling left and right, much as communism collapsed in 1990.

Instead he created a power-vacuum in which Iraqis looted everything in sight and set about brutally settling scores, dividing on sectarian and ethnic lines.

The left's opinion-leaders excoriated Bush for that unrealistic idealism and called him an 'idiot'.

Then came the so-called 'Arab Spring'. A bunch of young people in the Middle East took to social media and staged some large demonstrations, and somehow convinced Western leaders that there was a progressive modernist majority in these countries that wanted democratic change.

So Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton along with a coterie of dreamy unrealistic Europeans helped engineer the overthrow of Muammar Qaddhafi, in expectation that there was a progressive opposition ready to take his place. And just as we saw in Iraq, Libya fell apart. Libya became a failed state without a central government, ruled by a collection of unsavory militias, in some cases radical Islamist.

When crowds appeared in the streets of Cairo, Barack Obama again let his idealism get the better of him, abandoning Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak. Not only did this open the door to the Muslim Brotherhood, it also had a destabilizing effect on American alliances throughout the Middle East. Mubarak had been a key US ally for many years and now he was thrown under the bus. The Saudis and many others started to reassess the wisdom of basing their own regimes' security around their alliances with the United States. Subsequently the Egyptian military staged a coup, overthrowing the Muslim Brotherhood, and this time the US didn't object.

In Yemen once again, a longtime pro-Western dictator was overthrown by an 'Arab Spring' uprising cheered on by the West. The result this time was another failed state and the country being torn apart by Sunni-Shia conflict.

And now the Obama administration, many foolish Republicans and the always-dreamy European leaders tell us that the only way to bring peace and progress to Syria, and the only way to confront ISIS, is by overthrowing Syria's dictator Bashir Assad.

Never mind that the only military force on ISIS' western flank with a hope of confronting ISIS on the ground is the Syrian army. Never mind that by attacking the Syrian army instead of ISIS, the Syrian rebels are effectively behaving as ISIS allies.

And never mind that nobody has even the slightest clue what will fill the vacuum and take Assad's place after he is finally gone. The so-called 'Free Syrian Army', trained and equipped by the US? At this point, a year after it was so grandly announced, it's virtually non-existent. How in the world is it going to hold off much stronger rebel groups like the Nusra Front (al Qaida in Syria) or Jaish al Islam (Army of Islam) which fights to impose Shariah and to rid Syria of all non-Sunnis? And what would prevent ISIS from taking advantage of the vacuum and seizing Damascus?

It's just stupidity. The only one displaying any realism regarding any of this at the moment seems to be Vladimir Putin.
 
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