Syria September 2015 ~ What's up?

It doesn't say anything about the US supplying intel to Al Qaeda or ISIS as per your accusation. .

"Intended" = words

We supply intel and weapons to Qatar who then supplies weapons and intel to radical islamists...................
Would it have been more obvious if the CIA took out a full page add in your local newspaper?

We(the USA) know that they are doing it. We have known for quite some time that they are doing it. And, we keep doing our part in that seemingly silly circus. Unless, of course, we have an unvoiced agenda.

Alternately phrased:
If you get a piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, ...
Pretty soon, you gotta question your choice of tools.
And, just maybe, your choice of process or product.
 
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"Intended" = words

We supply intel and weapons to Qatar who then supplies weapons and intel to radical islamists...................
Would it have been more obvious if the CIA took out a full page add in your local newspaper?

We(the USA) know that they are doing it. We have known for quite some time that they are doing it. And, we keep doing our part in that seemingly silly circus. Unless, of course, we have an unvoiced agenda.

Alternately phrased:
If you get a piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, then you get another piece of glass and try to fit it with a hammer and it breaks, ...
Pretty soon, you gotta question your choice of tools.
And, just maybe, your choice of process or product.

How is this different from the US economy propping up fascist governments in Russia, China and around the world? You sell stuff to China and teach their students in your universities, they put your stuff into bombs and sell them to Iran, and so on... Yet it goes on and on because there's a selfish perception that things are more convenient for the free world this way.

If the US were simply to stop providing weapons to Qatar, Turkey etc., it's more likely to embolden Iran, Russia and Assad to commit massacres on an even larger scale, which will provoke an even larger backlash that inevitably spills over into the western hemisphere. If you want to abandon all the assholes you've traditionally called allies, you ought to do at least as much for all the assholes who've traditionally sided against you and dream of one day ruling the planet through violence. Notice how Russia's current deployments are not in areas where ISIS is present, but in areas where other rebel groups are fighting against both ISIS and Assad, which means they're effectively helping ISIS rather than fighting against it, and yet the world sits back in bewilderment instead of taking definitive action.
 
Cpt.
It would seem that your position is predicated on your assumption that:
If the US were simply to stop providing weapons to Qatar, Turkey etc., it's more likely to embolden Iran, Russia and Assad to commit massacres on an even larger scale,

Perhaps, that is an erroneous assumption?
 
Cpt.
It would seem that your position is predicated on your assumption that:

Perhaps, that is an erroneous assumption?

Perhaps your assumptions are erroneous instead? If you want to know why the current war effort doesn't appear to be working, it's because Syria has a Russian-backed proxy army dropping tonnes of barrel bombs by the day on moderate rebels who have little more than Kalashnikovs and BBQ gas tanks with which to defend themselves, and the US is asking these people to restrict themselves exclusively to fighting ISIS on the other side of the country.
 
Perhaps, but I've grown wary of continuing to use the hammer.

Had we not participated in destabilizing Syria, would ISIL even exist?
 
Perhaps, but I've grown wary of continuing to use the hammer.

Had we not participated in destabilizing Syria, would ISIL even exist?

I couldn't answer that, you'd have to ask Bashar Assad. If the US hadn't given moral and limited financial backing to the rebels, would Assad have released ISIS leaders from his jails and sat back while they wreaked havoc in the east? If Assad had been allowed to conduct ethnic cleansing from the very beginning with no restraints and with all the Russian and Iranian weapons he needed, would the situation be better than one with ISIS in its present form?

I've said from the very beginning, the US should provide whatever support it can to whatever moderate rebels remain in Syria, including the establishment of no-fly zones over their communities. Conversely, it should move to cut off all economic, political and military relations with any nation that plays by a different agenda, and coerce its allies into doing the same.
 
Something must be making you think that we operate from a position of moral superiority?

If so:
What is it?
 
If the US hadn't given moral and limited financial backing to the rebels, would Assad have released ISIS leaders from his jails and sat back while they wreaked havoc in the east? If Assad had been allowed to conduct ethnic cleansing from the very beginning with no restraints and with all the Russian and Iranian weapons he needed, would the situation be better than one with ISIS in its present form?
The IS leadership comes from the American prisons in Iraq.

There was no ethnic cleansing from Assad. Except for the Kurdish question, the fight is not about ethnicity but religion - extremist Wahabism (IS, Al Qaida, other US allies) vs. Christians, Shiites, Alewites (all Assad). And the Kurds do not fight with Assad.

Without the US, there would have been simply no civil war at all, or a quite short one.
I've said from the very beginning, the US should provide whatever support it can to whatever moderate rebels remain in Syria, including the establishment of no-fly zones over their communities. Conversely, it should move to cut off all economic, political and military relations with any nation that plays by a different agenda, and coerce its allies into doing the same.
Moderate rebels are essentially an invention of American propaganda. The rebels have been wahabi fundamentalists from the start.

The power which establishes if necessary no fly zones is now Assad. Based on S 300 (or may be even S 400) provided by the Russians.
 
The IS leadership comes from the American prisons in Iraq.

Did America free the Chechens from Russian Gulags, too?

Many ISIS leaders did indeed spend time in U.S. prisons, while folks like yourself cried that they were innocent civilians and freedom fighters being locked up for opposing American oil companies. Many of them also became radicalized in said prisons. When the US left Iraq in 2011, Sunni insurgents were almost completely eliminated from the battlefield, yet thanks to another 3 years of ongoing Shia tyranny in Iraq and Syria, ISIS gained a new platform and now, one year later, appears stronger than ever. It was Assad who helped to rejuvenate ISIS after America left, by releasing jihadists from his prisons to discredit the moderate opposition, and it's Assad who continues to buy large quantities of oil, water, gas and electricity from them.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...ies-become-most-powerful-rebel-force-in-syria

There was no ethnic cleansing from Assad.

That's a bold-faced lie, and you betray the fact that you know it full-well with the following:

Except for the Kurdish question, the fight is not about ethnicity but religion - extremist Wahabism (IS, Al Qaida, other US allies) vs. Christians, Shiites, Alewites (all Assad). And the Kurds do not fight with Assad.

Why do you not mention the Sunni Arabs and where they stand? You've either excluded 70% of Syria's population from having any involvement in the civil war, or else you're cynically lumping them all in with the Wahabists.

Obviously you don't find it ironic that Bashar Assad's army has killed vastly more of the Syrian civilians he pretends to be protecting than the Wahabists he pretends to be fighting have, while it's the Wahabists that you label the worst of the terrorists. By comparison, even when the US invaded Iraq, the vast majority of the civilian casualties were caused by anti-US insurgents.

Without the US, there would have been simply no civil war at all, or a quite short one.

Correct, it would have been a Russian-sponsored Holocaust.

Moderate rebels are essentially an invention of American propaganda. The rebels have been wahabi fundamentalists from the start.

Does that include the children who were torn to shreds by the Syrian army for painting anti-Assad graffiti, or the parents who received the remains at their doorsteps?

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2060788,00.html

Yes, anyone who opposes the invasion and enslavement of their country by a bunch of squat, flat-headed, droopy-eyed, fetal alcohol Caucasian drunks with low IQ's and well-deserved inferiority complexes, must doubtlessly be Wahabi terrorists out to destroy Mother Russia.

The power which establishes if necessary no fly zones is now Assad. Based on S 300 (or may be even S 400) provided by the Russians.

And I say it's time for the US and its allies to sweep that power away with even better air defenses meant to halt the Russo-Iranian genocide and level the playing field.
 
I believe IS can not be considered as a typical Wahhabi extremist group.
They do however, appear to operate using extreme Wahhabism as a justification for their actions. As my Muslim friends here in Melbourne have said many times. IS is not Muslim. Their actions against the "infidel" are apparently in direct contravention of the primary tenants of the Islam.
So to consider the IS phenomena in the usual "Middle East Conflict" terms would be a grave error IMO.

As matter of interest it might be worth having a read of:
Islamic Eschatology...
wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology

Just prior to the launch of IS into Iraq there was strong rumor about the sighting of the face of the Mahdi in the "Black Stone" ( the black stone attached to the Kabba in the holy mosque in Mecca)
The sighting of the face of the Mahdi arrival signifies the coming of end times ( judgement day) for those obsessed with Islamic Eschatology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

"When the Mahdi appears, Allah will cause such power of vision and hearing to be manifested in believers that the Mahdi will call to the whole world from where he is, with no postman involved, and they will hear and even see him"
(wonders if the use of social media qualifies as the postman? :) )

Opinion:
When combined with the fears associated with climate change and the insane obsession with Islamic eschatology The Wahhabi wanna-be's went nuttso and sought to build an Islamic Caliphate to welcome the new era.

Not much different to the Christian Eschatology (book of revelations) inspiring mentally disturbed people to stand on street corners with a sign saying the "end is nigh" and the generation of various death cult type groupings world wide.

So, to consider IS as some sort of terrorist group would be incorrect. It is more an insane "death cult" and any anti-IS strategy needs to include this significant difference to be successful. IMO
In a broader sense it all comes down to what I would call "Global end times paranoia" and IS pheno is only an extreme outcome of that paranoia. ( As is the refugee crisis impacting globally)

"Maybe we would be better off bombing IS with anti psychotic medication"
 
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OMG
It would seem that you've already made up your mind and do not wish to be confused by the facts.
 
OMG
It would seem that you've already made up your mind and do not wish to be confused by the facts.

Yeah, because saying things like "anyone who doesn't voluntarily go to torture camp is a terrorist" leaves plenty of room open for a "rational opposition".
 
OMG
It would seem that you've already made up your mind and do not wish to be confused by the facts.
Hey Sculptor, as much as I have tried to gain access to a copy of the speech transcript it is unavailable (appears blocked to me). Can you post the text of it here?
 
PUTIN (THROUGH INTERPRETER): Your excellency Mr. President, your excellency Mr. Secretary General, distinguished heads of state and government, ladies and gentlemen, the 70th anniversary of the United Nations is a good occasion to both take stock of history and talk about our common future.

In 1945, the countries that defeated Nazism joined their efforts to lay solid foundations for the postwar world order.

But I remind you that the key decisions on the principles guiding the cooperation among states, as well as on the establishment of the United Nations, were made in our country, in Yalta, at the meeting of the anti-Hitler coalition leaders.

The Yalta system was actually born in travail. It was won at the cost of tens of millions of lives and two world wars.

This swept through the planet in the 20th century.

Let us be fair. It helped humanity through turbulent, at times dramatic, events of the last seven decades. It saved the world from large-scale upheavals.

The United Nations is unique in its legitimacy, representation and universality. It is true that lately the U.N. has been widely criticized for supposedly not being efficient enough, and for the fact that the decision-making on fundamental issues stalls due to insurmountable differences, first of all, among the members of the Security Council.

However, I'd like to point out there have always been differences in the U.N. throughout all these 70 years of existence. The veto right has always been exercised by the United States, the United Kingdom, France, China, the Soviet Union and Russia later, alike. It is absolutely natural for so diverse and representative an organization.

When the U.N. was established, its founders did not in the least think that there would always be unanimity. The mission of the organization is to seek and reach compromises, and its strength comes from taking different views and opinions into consideration. Decisions debated within the U.N. are either taken as resolutions or not. As diplomats say, they either pass or do not pass.

Whatever actions any state might take bypassing this procedure are illegitimate. They run counter to the charter and defy international law. We all know that after the end of the Cold War — everyone is aware of that — a single center of domination emerged in the world, and then those who found themselves at the top of the pyramid were tempted to think that if they were strong and exceptional, they knew better and they did not have to reckon with the U.N., which, instead of [acting to] automatically authorize and legitimize the necessary decisions, often creates obstacles or, in other words, stands in the way.

It has now become commonplace to see that in its original form, it has become obsolete and completed its historical mission. Of course, the world is changing and the U.N. must be consistent with this natural transformation. Russia stands ready to work together with its partners on the basis of full consensus, but we consider the attempts to undermine the legitimacy of the United Nations as extremely dangerous. They could lead to a collapse of the entire architecture of international organizations, and then indeed there would be no other rules left but the rule of force.

We would get a world dominated by selfishness rather than collective work, a world increasingly characterized by dictate rather than equality. There would be less of a chain of democracy and freedom, and that would be a world where true independent states would be replaced by an ever-growing number of de facto protectorates and externally controlled territories.

What is the state sovereignty, after all, that has been mentioned by our colleagues here? It is basically about freedom and the right to choose freely one's own future for every person, nation and state. By the way, dear colleagues, the same holds true of the question of the so-called legitimacy of state authority. One should not play with or manipulate words.

Every term in international law and international affairs should be clear, transparent and have uniformly understood criteria. We are all different, and we should respect that. No one has to conform to a single development model that someone has once and for all recognized as the only right one. We should all remember what our past has taught us.

We also remember certain episodes from the history of the Soviet Union. Social experiments for export, attempts to push for changes within other countries based on ideological preferences, often led to tragic consequences and to degradation rather than progress.

It seemed, however, that far from learning from others' mistakes, everyone just keeps repeating them, and so the export of revolutions, this time of so-called democratic ones, continues. It would suffice to look at the situation in the Middle East and North Africa, as has been mentioned by previous speakers. Certainly political and social problems in this region have been piling up for a long time, and people there wish for changes naturally.

But how did it actually turn out? Rather than bringing about reforms, an aggressive foreign interference has resulted in a brazen destruction of national institutions and the lifestyle itself. Instead of the triumph of democracy and progress, we got violence, poverty and social disaster. Nobody cares a bit about human rights, including the right to life.

I cannot help asking those who have caused the situation, do you realize now what you've done? But I am afraid no one is going to answer that. Indeed, policies based on self-conceit and belief in one's exceptionality and impunity have never been abandoned.

It is now obvious that the power vacuum created in some countries of the Middle East and North Africa through the emergence of anarchy areas, which immediately started to be filled with extremists and terrorists.

Tens of thousands of militants are fighting under the banners of the so-called Islamic State. Its ranks include former Iraqi servicemen who were thrown out into the street after the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Many recruits also come from Libya, a country whose statehood was destroyed as a result of a gross violation of the U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973. And now, the ranks of radicals are being joined by the members of the so-called moderate Syrian opposition supported by the Western countries.

First, they are armed and trained and then they defect to the so-called Islamic State. Besides, the Islamic State itself did not just come from nowhere. It was also initially forged as a tool against undesirable secular regimes.

Having established a foothold in Iraq and Syria, the Islamic State has begun actively expanding to other regions. It is seeking dominance in the Islamic world. And not only there, and its plans go further than that. The situation is more than dangerous.

In these circumstances, it is hypocritical and irresponsible to make loud declarations about the threat of international terrorism while turning a blind eye to the channels of financing and supporting terrorists, including the process of trafficking and illicit trade in oil and arms. It would be equally irresponsible to try to manipulate extremist groups and place them at one's service in order to achieve one's own political goals in the hope of later dealing with them or, in other words, liquidating them.

To those who do so, I would like to say — dear sirs, no doubt you are dealing with rough and cruel people, but they're in no way primitive or silly. They are just as clever as you are, and you never know who is manipulating whom. And the recent data on arms transferred to this most moderate opposition is the best proof of it.

We believe that any attempts to play games with terrorists, let alone to arm them, are not just short-sighted, but fire hazardous (ph). This may result in the global terrorist threat increasing dramatically and engulfing new regions, especially given that Islamic State camps train militants from many countries, including the European countries.

Unfortunately, dear colleagues, I have to put it frankly: Russia is not an exception. We cannot allow these criminals who already tasted blood to return back home and continue their evil doings. No one wants this to happen, does he?

Russia has always been consistently fighting against terrorism in all its forms. Today, we provide military and technical assistance both to Iraq and Syria and many other countries of the region who are fighting terrorist groups.

We think it is an enormous mistake to refuse to cooperate with the Syrian government and its armed forces, who are valiantly fighting terrorism face to face. We should finally acknowledge that no one but President Assad's armed forces and Kurds (ph) militias are truly fighting the Islamic State and other terrorist organizations in Syria.

We know about all the problems and contradictions in the region, but which were (ph) based on the reality.

Dear colleagues, I must note that such an honest and frank approach of Russia has been recently used as a pretext to accuse it of its growing ambitions, as if those who say it have no ambitions at all.
 
However, it's not about Russia's ambitions, dear colleagues, but about the recognition of the fact that we can no longer tolerate the current state of affairs in the world. What we actually propose is to be guided by common values and common interests, rather than ambitions.

On the basis of international law, we must join efforts to address the problems that all of us are facing and create a genuinely broad international coalition against terrorism.

Similar to the anti-Hitler coalition, it could unite a broad range of forces that are resolutely resisting those who, just like the Nazis, sow evil and hatred of humankind. And, naturally, the Muslim countries are to play a key role in the coalition, even more so because the Islamic State does not only pose a direct threat to them, but also desecrates one of the greatest world religions by its bloody crimes.

The ideologists (ph) of militants make a mockery of Islam and pervert its true humanistic (ph) values. I would like to address Muslim spiritual leaders, as well. Your authority and your guidance are of great importance right now.

It is essential to prevent people recruited by militants from making hasty decisions and those who have already been deceived, and who, due to various circumstances found themselves among terrorists, need help in finding a way back to normal life, laying down arms, and putting an end to fratricide.

Russia will shortly convene, as the (ph) current president of the Security Council, a ministerial meeting to carry out a comprehensive analysis of threats in the Middle East.

First of all, we propose discussing whether it is possible to agree on a resolution aimed at coordinating the actions of all the forces that confront the Islamic State and other terrorist organizations. Once again, this coordination should be based on the principles of the U.N. Charter.
 
We hope that the international community will be able to develop a comprehensive strategy of political stabilization, as well as social and economic recovery, of the Middle East.

Then, dear friends, there would be no need for new refugee camps. Today, the flow of people who were forced to leave their homeland has literally engulfed first neighboring countries and then Europe itself. There were hundreds of thousands of them now, and there might be millions before long. In fact, it is a new great and tragic migration of peoples, and it is a harsh lesson for all of us, including Europe.

I would like to stress refugees undoubtedly need our compassion and support. However, the — on the way to solve this problem at a fundamental level is to restore their statehood where it has been destroyed, to strengthen the government institutions where they still exist or are being reestablished, to provide comprehensive assistance of military, economic and material nature to countries in a difficult situation. And certainly, to those people who, despite all the ordeals, will not abandon their homes. Literally, any assistance to sovereign states can and must be offered rather than imposed exclusively and solely in accordance with the U.N. Charter.

In other words, everything in this field that has been done or will be done pursuant to the norms of international law must be supported by our organization. Everything that contravenes the U.N. Charter must be rejected. Above all, I believe it is of the utmost importance to help restore government's institutions in Libya, support the new government of Iraq and provide comprehensive assistance to the legitimate government of Syria.

Dear colleagues, ensuring peace and regional and global stability remains the key objective of the international community with the U.N. at its helm. We believe this means creating a space of equal and indivisible security, which is not for the select few but for everyone. Yet, it is a challenge and complicated and time-consuming task, but there is simply no other alternative. However, the bloc thinking of the times of the Cold War and the desire to explore new geopolitical areas is still present among some of our colleagues.
 
First, they continue their policy of expanding NATO. What for? If the Warsaw Bloc stopped its existence, the Soviet Union have collapsed (ph) and, nevertheless, the NATO continues expanding as well as its military infrastructure. Then they offered the poor Soviet countries a false choice: either to be with the West or with the East. Sooner or later, this logic of confrontation was bound to spark off a grave geopolitical crisis. This is exactly what happened in Ukraine, where the discontent of population with the current authorities was used and the military coup was orchestrated from outside — that triggered a civil war as a result.

We're confident that only through full and faithful implementation of the Minsk agreements of February 12th, 2015, can we put an end to the bloodshed and find a way out of the deadlock. Ukraine's territorial integrity cannot be ensured by threat of force and force of arms. What is needed is a genuine consideration for the interests and rights of the people in the Donbas region and respect for their choice. There is a need to coordinate with them as provided for by the Minsk agreements, the key elements of the country's political structure. These steps will guarantee that Ukraine will develop as a civilized society, as an essential link and building a common space of security and economic cooperation, both in Europe and in Eurasia.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have mentioned these common space of economic cooperation on purpose. Not long ago, it seemed that in the economic sphere, with its objective market loss, we would launch a leaf (ph) without dividing lines. We would build on transparent and jointly formulated rules, including the WTO principles, stipulating the freedom of trade, and investment and open competition.

Nevertheless, today, unilateral sanctions circumventing the U.N. Charter have become commonplace, in addition to pursuing political objectives. The sanctions serve as a means of eliminating competitors.

I would like to point out another sign of a growing economic selfishness. Some countries [have] chosen to create closed economic associations, with the establishment being negotiated behind the scenes, in secret from those countries' own citizens, the general public, business community and from other countries.
 
Other states whose interests may be affected are not informed of anything, either. It seems that we are about to be faced with an accomplished fact that the rules of the game have been changed in favor of a narrow group of the privileged, with the WTO having no say. This could unbalance the trade system completely and disintegrate the global economic space.

These issues affect the interest of all states and influence the future of the world economy as a whole. That is why we propose discussing them within the U.N. WTO NGO (ph) '20.

Contrary to the policy of exclusiveness, Russia proposes harmonizing original economic projects. I refer to the so-called integration of integrations based on universal and transparent rules of international trade. As an example, I would like to cite our plans to interconnect the Eurasian economic union, and China's initiative of the Silk Road economic belt.

We still believe that harmonizing the integration processes within the Eurasian Economic Union and the European Union is highly promising.

Ladies and gentlemen, the issues that affect the future of all people include the challenge of global climate change. It is in our interest to make the U.N. Climate Change Conference to be held in December in Paris a success.

As part of our national contribution, we plan to reduce by 2030 the greenhouse emissions to 70, 75 percent of the 1990 level.
 
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