Suicides more likely to be atheists

[Bells]

Though the West leads the World in technological advances and scientific breakthroughs they have massive problems regarding social issues. There are massive issues with the family unit being eradicated, the concept of marriage no longer taken seriously, a ridiculously high divorce rate, children born out of wedlock, unstable upbringings. And no one cares, members of parliament, prime ministers, presidents, no one gives a shit! the people that run our countries do not even mention these issues. They pretend its not their business, there is no moral order, only chaos.

Yes, much better in religious societies where such things are hushed up or the wife/woman disposed of by an unfortunate suicide or honour killing/attack.

So much better to sweep it under the carpet and attempt to deny its very existence. That way, the God believing head of the family can beat and rape his wife as he wishes.. That's order..

On March 12, 2000, some 300,000 demonstrators took to the streets of Rabat, Morocco, expressing their support for a new law expanding womens right to divorce. Simultaneously, a comparable number of demonstrators took to the streets of the nearby city of Casablanca to protest the law as a deviation from sharia (Islamic law). While divorce is a permissible and established option in Islam, in many Muslim societies it tends to be treated as a male prerogative; women can easily be divorced, but not seek divorce.[1] The new Moroccan law aimed to lessen this gender imbalance,[2] sparking the competing demonstrations that, together, offered anecdotal evidence of sharply divergent views on Muslim womens rights.

Opponents of the new law framed their position as a defense of religion and the family, claiming that the law conflicts with womens duties to their husbands, and contravenes their sharia-based status as legal minors.

http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/thematic/Violence.htm

God forbid women are treated as the same as men when it comes to such issues as divorce.. I mean religion teaches women their place, right?

Now religion is more than just believing in God, it is a culture, a way of life. Religion is meeting up with family and friends, religion is going to weddings, get togethers, having people in the community meet up and discuss issues affecting them all (happens in Mosques, Churches etc).

True. With atheists we never ever meet up with family and friends or get together with the people of our communities to discuss or attempt to find solutions to the problems in our communities. On the contrary, we tend to live solitary lives, usually like hermits. We only come out when the need to procreate becomes strong and then have our children out of wedlock once we have found a suitable mate (a club to the head usually works). We then tend to abandon our children to the wild and rely on the survival of the fitness scenario. If the children come out of the forests 10 years later, they survived and are obviously fit.

/End sarcasm.

When you attack the whole concept of religion without any understanding you are at risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Religion can help tackle social issues.

Of course. Now get back to us when the Saudi's allow their women the right to drive. Hell, get back to us when the Saudi's allow women any rights at all and tell us how Sharia Law has helped tackle the social issues that surround women in Saudi Arabia..

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM,

Please cite the page number(s) on that publication from which you construct your graph. My contention is that this is contrived, if not invented, information and, thus, trolling.

If you are unable to find the page number(s) to provide a proper citation, please delete your posts or at least concede that you invented the information.

Feel free to delete whatever you disagree with, since when has a scientifically correct viewpoint stopped you?

Its open data you can google religious affiliation and suicide rate.

 

[SkinWalker]

I'd rather you were honest on your own.

Is your lack of citation / page number(s) a concession of deception? I have the report in front of me and there is no mention of "religion" or "atheism" anywhere.

The data are correlated by state, age, and gender. Not religion or lack thereof.

This appears to be an example of intellectual dishonesty and it isn't what I've ever expected from you. Not on this level.

 

[SkinWalker]

Now that I think about it, I think you shouldn't delete your posts. Indeed, I'll maintain my quote of your dishonesty as a demonstration to others what lengths you appear to be willing to go.

 

[S.A.M.]

Like I said, its off an article, I restarted my computer this morning and my cache is erased. You can google religious affiliation and suicide rate and find thousands of supporting articles. Or you can delete it. I really don't feel like searching for that particular article.

 

[James R]

SAM:

SkinWalker's accusation that you have made up your data is a serious one.

His request that you cite your source specifically is a reasonable one.

Please do so.

 

[S.A.M.]

Now that I think about it, I think you shouldn't delete your posts. Indeed, I'll maintain my quote of your dishonesty as a demonstration to others what lengths you appear to be willing to go.

dishonesty? Please provide evidence then. I'm sure you are not making an unsupported assertion, being all scientifically honest and what not.

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM:

SkinWalker's accusation that you have made up your data is a serious one.

His request that you cite your source specifically is a reasonable one.

Please do so.

I don't have the history now. What does your Gallup Poll data say?

 

[SkinWalker]

Ah. I see. Deleted cache. Right.

To all members: The above quoted post of SAM's is an example of intellectual dishonesty. She invented statistics, created a graph, and cited a paper she hoped no one would locate. The PDF of the paper can be found here for all those interested. Please note that the title matches her citation and even a casual glance reveals that the data are correlated by state, age, and gender. Not a single category includes religion, religious affiliation or lack thereof.

One is left to wonder if this is S.A.M.'s first (or last) time at such a deception. Her words clearly require a healthy dose of skepticism.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah. I see. Deleted cache. Right.

To all members: The above quoted post of SAM's is an example of intellectual dishonesty. She invented statistics, created a graph, and cited a paper she hoped no one would locate. The PDF of the paper can be found here for all those interested. Please note that the title matches her citation and even a casual glance reveals that the data are correlated by state, age, and gender. Not a single category includes religion, religious affiliation or lack thereof.

One is left to wonder if this is S.A.M.'s first (or last) time at such a deception. Her words clearly require a healthy dose of skepticism.

Found it. And I expect an apology.

http://csrp.hku.hk/iasp/s/bertolote.pdf

 

[SkinWalker]

Why would I apologize for your own inept ability to properly cite a source? Your citation above clearly states: "WHO, figures and facts about suicide 1999," not Suicidologi, 2002.

 

[James R]

I don't have the history now. What does your Gallup Poll data say?

Read my previous post.

The studies and data I have found tend to support your thesis that suicide is less prevalent in more religious nations.

That is not relevant to the accusation that you made up this particular data. That accusation is a serious one, and I am extremely disappointed that you are trying to worm your way out of it.

The moral position would be either to properly cite your source or admit that you invented the information. If you invented it, you should apologise and undertake not to engage in such dishonesty in future.

Since you decline to provide your source, I will now read the article you cited myself and check if you have been dishonest. If I find that you have lied, I think a brief ban from sciforums is probably in order, given that no apology from you is forthcoming.

You will notice that OilIsMastery has recently been permanently banned from sciforums for just this kind of dishonesty.

 

[S.A.M.]

Skin:

Duh, I gave the source for the figure. Otherwise, what do the years mean?

But, you accused me of dishonesty. Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath here.

 

[SkinWalker]

Moreover, Bertolote and Fleishmann demonstrate a poor methodology in that they attempt to use the WHO report to create a correlate that doesn't exist. That, my friend, is pseudoscience. No wonder you didn't wish to cite the actual source.

 

[S.A.M.]

Its WHO data and used likewise for all such studies. I suggest you complain to WHO instead. And meanwhile take a gander at your Intelligent people are less likely to be theists thread for a similar correlation.

 

[SkinWalker]

Skin:

Duh, I gave the source for the figure. Otherwise, what do the years mean?

But, you accused me of dishonesty. Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath here.

You did not. That figure does not exist in the WHO report. It was invented by Bertolote and Fleishmann. They attempt to correlate suicides to "Christian" and "Atheist" nations. At best, they are showing a cultural correlation -not a religious one.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ok, here's a controlled trial

Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found. CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

Here are some more:

Previous studies have used population data to demonstrate an inverse association between suicide rates and religious commitment. This report examines Utah suicide rates for young men aged 15–34 years, stratified by their membership in and commitment to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), the predominant religion in Utah. All state death records for males from 1991 to 1995 were obtained and linked to LDS church deceased membership records to obtain a measure of religious commitment that is not self-reported. Religious commitment for LDS church members was determined by age-appropriate priesthood office. Of the 27,738 male deaths reported, 15,555 (56%) linked to an LDS church record using a probabilistic linking program. Using active (high religious commitment) LDS as the reference group, the less-active (low religious commitment) LDS group had relative risks of suicide ranging from 3.28 (ages 15–19 years) to 7.64 (ages 25–29 years); nonmembers of the LDS church had relative risks ranging from 3.43 (ages 15–19 years) to 6.27 (ages 20–24 years). Although the mechanism of the association is unclear, higher levels of religiosity appear to be inversely associated with suicide.

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/155/5/413#T2

Another:

Linear regression was used to examine ecological associations between suicide tolerance, religion and suicide rates in 19 Western countries in 1989/90. Logistic regression was used to study associations between suicide tolerance and strength of religious belief in 28085 individuals in these countries. The concept of effect modifying function was used to examine whether the strength of the association between suicide tolerance and religious belief in individuals depended on the extent of religious belief in their country.

Results. Higher female suicide rates were associated with lower aggregate levels of religious belief and, less strongly, religious attendance. These associations were mostly attributable to the association between higher tolerance of suicide and higher suicide rates. In the 28085 subjects suicide tolerance and the strength of religious belief were negatively associated even after adjustment for other religious and sociodemographic variables and general tolerance levels (odds ratios: men 0·74 (95% CI 0·58–0·94), women 0·72 (95% CI 0·60–0·86)). This negative individual- level association was more pronounced in more highly religious countries but this modifying effect of the religious context was apparent for men only.

http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...B104AF5E91C.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=25493

 

[SkinWalker]

Its WHO data and used likewise for all such studies. I suggest you complain to WHO instead. And meanwhile take a gander at your Intelligent people are less likely to be theists thread for a similar correlation.

The WHO report stands on its own merit. They made no attempt to correlate suicide to religiosity. That was done by Bertolote and Fleishmann and their methodology was flawed since they fail to show that the actual suicides were committed by either Christians, atheists, or other religious groups mentioned. They correlate to a correlation. Since correlation doesn't imply causation to begin with....

Face it: you were sloppy and dishonest. You cited the wrong source and then attempt to state that the "figure" was from that source when it wasn't.

You would have gained more by owning your error than making excuses.

 

[Ghost_007]

Yes, much better in religious societies where such things are hushed up or the wife/woman disposed of by an unfortunate suicide or honour killing/attack.

How many honour killings in Muslim countries? They are not encouraged or condoned, they are criminal acts - condemned by the religion and the law.

So much better to sweep it under the carpet and attempt to deny its very existence. That way, the God believing head of the family can beat and rape his wife as he wishes.. That's order..

No, that is paranoia and scaremongering.

God forbid women are treated as the same as men when it comes to such issues as divorce.. I mean religion teaches women their place, right?

You do realise Muslim women use the teachings of Islam (Quran and saying of the Prophet) to back up their claims. Religion is open up to interpretation. And plus I seriously doubt one side was made up entirely of women and the other entirely of men, its never that simple.

True. With atheists we never ever meet up with family and friends or get together with the people of our communities to discuss or attempt to find solutions to the problems in our communities. On the contrary, we tend to live solitary lives, usually like hermits. We only come out when the need to procreate becomes strong and then have our children out of wedlock once we have found a suitable mate (a club to the head usually works). We then tend to abandon our children to the wild and rely on the survival of the fitness scenario. If the children come out of the forests 10 years later, they survived and are obviously fit.

/End sarcasm.

Your tone is not helpful. I think a decrease in the practising of religion, church going and other religious-community stuff can easily be linked to the social ills facing society in the 21st century. The West (generally) is even more individualistic, everything is me, me, me! Eastern cultures are more collectivistic.

In the West people send their parents to old care homes, they can't be bothered. In Eastern cultures, brothers and sisters fight eachother to have their mum and dad live with them, it is an honour. The West has a large number of single households, mateys that are not married, no kids, just living on their own. Rare in the East, you will hardly ever see such a thing in Arab countries, Pakistan, India etc.

Social capital is low in the West.

Of course. Now get back to us when the Saudi's allow their women the right to drive. Hell, get back to us when the Saudi's allow women any rights at all and tell us how Sharia Law has helped tackle the social issues that surround women in Saudi Arabia..

You think I'm some sort of Saudi lackey, I am an enemy of the Saudi state, I hope to carve the country up one day. The Saudis have no monopoly on Islam, in fact in my opinion they are far away from the basic teachings of Islam. Women have every right to drive, it is only the Saudis that ban them, God knows why.

 

[James R]

I can confirm that the cited article from the World Health Organisation, Suicide: Facts and Figures (1999) contains only information on suicide rates by country, broken down by age and gender.

SAM's graph is actually extracted from a different article, linked by her above. That article apparently takes the WHO data, assigns some kind of religiosity factor to various countries, and generates a graph of religiosity vs suicide rate. However, in the article actually used, no methodology for specifying the religiosity is given, making that part of the article scientifically very weak.

SAM's original citation gave the false impression that the WHO had in fact directly collected data on religiosity, in the same study as the one on suicide rates in 1999. It did not - or if it did it did not publish any such data.

SAM's mis-citation caused confusion and gave a misleading impression.

In my opinion, it would be appropriate for SAM to apologise for her error, and to undertake to be more careful in future.

Since the real source was cited, I see no need for a ban at this point. I would not like to see this kind of false citation repeated, though.