Stun guns and cops.

[John99]

[QUOTE: Bells]So you think the police would have been justified in using a weapon against the man running to get help for his wife who was sitting in the car giving birth outside the emergency room door? You'd think it justified to use a weapon on a woman who's sitting there with her legs spread and a baby coming out? You think the police officer was justified in dragging the woman out of the car? My husband and I were amazed at what the nurses were saying.[/QUOTE]

A speeding car is evading (for all the police knew) the police, pulls up to a building a runs like a psycho towards a building while ignoring police screams to stop.

Do i need to ad more to this

Good one.

 

[MetaKron]

Anyone who can justify the use of force in the case of the pregnant woman needs to have their head examined. Doing this because of the one in many billions scenario of a terrorist in action is not justifiable. It is simply being a hog for violence. If someone runs red lights getting to the hospital, a freaking health emergency is going on! THERE IS NO OTHER INTERPRETATION. Whoever thinks there is and applies force does not belong on a police force.

 

[leopold]

i disagree.
the entire situation would have been avoided if the man stopped when the cops blasted their siren at him.

 

[Neildo]

If someone runs red lights getting to the hospital, a freaking health emergency is going on! THERE IS NO OTHER INTERPRETATION. Whoever thinks there is and applies force does not belong on a police force.

Uh, there's plenty of interpretations on what could have went on. Just the fact that the situation went down as it did proves it so. You honestly think criminals have never thought of rushing to a hospital to try and evade the police? Other than some bad neighborhood, woods, or other remote location, public areas are one of the most common places criminals go to quickly blend in and get away.

And since the suspect was fleeing as the guy did, if he weren't a hubby rushing his wife to the ER, he wouldn't be just some regular guy breaking the law but most likely a dangerous felon. The majority of cases where a person tries to evade the police, they're a felon. It's nice to see you'd be so foolish as to take the threat of a possible danerous felon so lightly -- you'd be the rookie cop that winds up dead.

Cops always proceed with caution, even when on their break and ordering lunch at a burger joint. Heck, they even do so on their days off when dressed in plain civilian clothes for fear of someone they've busted, written a ticket to, or had an otherwise unpleasant encounter with noticing them and starting a scene -- it's happened to my friend's quite a few times at the mall or stores when I was with them and is one of the reasons why we're always strapped. Doing anything in public like a normal person can quickly get ruined. Once we see a guy that's been busted, we have to instantly leave so a scene doesn't happen. It sucks even more when they're with their wives as their time together is more important than with their buddies. It's one thing to call pro-gun people paranoid for being cautious but abso-friggin-unbelievably ignorant to say that about the police -- especially when on duty.

For you to think that a person speeding and rushing into a hospital means that the only interpretation is that a health emergency is going on shows that you don't belong on a police force. Obviously you're not a LEO or have ever been in a situation or had a job where you have to proceed with caution in every encounter you make.

- N

 

[John99]

Anyone who can justify the use of force in the case of the pregnant woman needs to have their head examined. Doing this because of the one in many billions scenario of a terrorist in action is not justifiable. It is simply being a hog for violence. If someone runs red lights getting to the hospital, a freaking health emergency is going on! THERE IS NO OTHER INTERPRETATION. Whoever thinks there is and applies force does not belong on a police force.

You are not being realistic. Really just go through the scenario in you head and think about how this could have been avoided.

the entire situation would have been avoided if the man stopped when the cops blasted their siren at him.

i see this has allreaqdy been covered.

MetaKron you are just propogating stupidity, and i never said terrorist but a psycho with a weapon is entirely feasible.

 

[Pete]

I think the original question comes under the umbrella of "Should cops use force?"

The simple answer is yes.

The more complex answer is yes - with caution, appropriate guidelines, and consequences for misuse.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think the original question comes under the umbrella of "Should cops use force?"

The simple answer is yes.

The more complex answer is yes - with caution, appropriate guidelines, and consequences for misuse.

I would have thought the simple answer would be: If it works.

IOW, does the use of force by cops help to reduce/alleviate/discourage/prevent crime?

 

[Baron Max]

..., does the use of force by cops help to reduce/alleviate/discourage/prevent crime?

Well, Sam, sure it does! Without the use of force, no criminals would be apprehended and brought to trial.

Just look at how you and others here would have had the cops react ...the driver of the car was speeding, so the cop tried to pull it over. The driver refused and "made a run for it". Without using force, that cop would have not even bothered following the guy in the first place!

Too many of you fail to understand that most criminals would try to escape ....and yet many of you think or imply that the cops should not use force, and just let them go.

How many arrests do you think the cops could/would make against criminals if they didn't use force or at least the threat of it???

Baron Max

 

[Pete]

I would have thought the simple answer would be: If it works.

IOW, does the use of force by cops help to reduce/alleviate/discourage/prevent crime?

It's called law enforcement for a reason. Some people do not choose to obey the law unless they are forced to do so.

If one or more police officers are at the scene of a crime in progress, and if the perpetrators choose not cease and desist, what choice do the police officers have?

"Stop doing that! Please? Pretty please with sugar on it?"

 

[Neildo]

If one or more police officers are at the scene of a crime in progress, and if the perpetrators choose not cease and desist, what choice do the police officers have?

"Please stop doing that! Pretty please with sugar on it?"

Kim Jong Il: Hans Brix? Oh no! Oh, herro. Great to see you again, Hans!
Hans Blix: Mr. Il, I was supposed to be allowed to inspect your palace today, but your guards won't let me enter certain areas.
Kim Jong Il: Hans, Hans, Hans! We've been frew this a dozen times. I don't have any weapons of mass destwuction, OK Hans?
Hans Blix: Then let me look around, so I can ease the UN's collective mind. I'm sorry, but the UN must be firm with you. Let me in, or else.
Kim Jong Il: Or else what?
Hans Blix: Or else we will be very angry with you... and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.
Kim Jong Il: OK, Hans. I'll show you. Stand to your reft.
Hans Blix: [Moves to the left]
Kim Jong Il: A rittle more.
Hans Blix: [Moves to the left again]
Kim Jong Il: Good.
[Opens up trap, Hans falls in] - Scene from Team America: World Police



- N

 

[cole grey]

I would have thought the simple answer would be: If it works.

your point - simple answers are for simple people.
The answer to the question is not "yes" that is absolutely incorrect.
The simplest answer you can get is "sometimes", anything simpler is not an answer, but rather a substitute for people who can't think straight. No offense to pete who ALSO posted the real answer.

Also, why shouldn't a policeman be asked to act appropriately ? A child can tell when to use the outside voice, and when to use the inside voice. I think most policemen can tell when they are dealing with a peaceable compliant person, even when the person makes it clear that they aren't about to take any unnecessary shit from someone just because he has a badge.
They should be told that discretion is a job requirement, they don't need to give people attitude.
Actually, I have not been in a situation where the police ever acted less than professionally once I made it clear that they had no right to harass me, and that they would have a problem, however minor it may be, if they did so. I remember one time some police stopped me because I was outside a studio late at night after I had been working there. First they started acting like assholes, and I told them I had a long day and wasn't about to be treated less than politely - they gave each other an astonished look and proceeded to calm right down. Then I thanked them for keeping an eye out and they left.

 

[Pete]

Well said, cg.

 

[Baron Max]

Also, why shouldn't a policeman be asked to act appropriately?

99% of a cop's dealings are with law violators, scumbags and criminals, so he learns quickly to be damned careful and damned cautious. You say "act appropriately", but when you deal with scum of the Earth every day, day in, day out, what exactly is deemed appropriate?

I think most policemen can tell when they are dealing with a peaceable compliant person, ...

I think we normally refer to cops like that as ...victims! Cops are killed all the time by just walking up to a car caught for speeding or other simple violation ....and the criminal pulls out a gun and shoots the cop in the face! Another "victim" of acting appropriately???

They should be told that discretion is a job requirement, they don't need to give people attitude.

They deal with criminals and scumbags and drug dealers and drug users and alcoholics and violators of the law all day, every day ...day in and day out. Yet you want them to always start out being nice and friendly and happy?

You try taking on a job like that, dealing with dangerous, desperate assholes every day, all day, all night, and just see how well you do at it.

We ask them to protect us, and to keep criminals out of our society ...yet the liberal doo-gooders and the courts put them right back out on our streets. Why should the cops try so hard for a society that does little to support them in their dangerous and nasty tasks?

Baron Max

 

[Pete]

99% of a cop's dealings are with law violators, scumbags and criminals, so he learns quickly to be damned careful and damned cautious. You say "act appropriately", but when you deal with scum of the Earth every day, day in, day out, what exactly is deemed appropriate?

Appropriate is to treat all potential perps as potential scum of the earth, to learn how to tell the difference between scum of the earth and average joes, and to treat them accordingly.

I think we normally refer to cops like that as ...victims! Cops are killed all the time by just walking up to a car caught for speeding or other simple violation ....and the criminal pulls out a gun and shoots the cop in the face! Another "victim" of acting appropriately???

Such incidents do happen, unfortunately, but "All the time?" I don't think it's as often as people think, even in the US.

Police are trained to deal with people. Often, the best way for the officer's personal safety is not through force.

This page is an interesting read: urviving a Traffic Stop Confrontation with an Anti-Government Extremist

They deal with criminals and scumbags and drug dealers and drug users and alcoholics and violators of the law all day, every day ...day in and day out.

You exaggerate.

 

[mountainhare]

leopold:

She was told by the doctors that had she stopped the car to even call for an ambulance, her father would have died.
”
the doctors lied to her. a person doesn't die immediately from a heart attack.

Leopold! I never knew you were a cardiologist! Where did you serve as an intern?

 

[Baron Max]

Appropriate is to treat all potential perps as potential scum of the earth, to learn how to tell the difference between scum of the earth and average joes, and to treat them accordingly.

Perhaps you can give us some lessons about that here? Please? I can then go tell my friends who face "average-looking Joes" every day ...who hide guns in their cars! Please ....tell us just exactly how a cop could tell the difference between a scumbag and an average Joe.

Such incidents do happen, unfortunately, but "All the time?" I don't think it's as often as people think, even in the US.

Only has to happen once to make any intelligent being a little tense and nervous, don't you think? If your friend got blasted like that, wouldn't you approach a speeder with a little more caution and suspicion than before?

Police are trained to deal with people. Often, the best way for the officer's personal safety is not through force.

And the police are trained to deal with scumbags, too. And no one has ever been able to teach them the difference between those scumbags and the average Joe. But, wait, you're gonna' tell us, right????

You exaggerate.

No, unfortunately I don't! And that's part of the problem which you and others can't see or refuse to acknowledge. You think cops should be saints, even while dealing with the underbelly of society. And that's ridiculous!

Baron Max

 

[leopold]

Anyone who can justify the use of force in the case of the pregnant woman needs to have their head examined.

i agree. if you are refering to the red light runner you must remember the police did not know she was pregnant.

If someone runs red lights getting to the hospital, a freaking health emergency is going on!

maybe, maybe not.

THERE IS NO OTHER INTERPRETATION.

i can think of at least two others.

Whoever thinks there is and applies force does not belong on a police force.

see ya at the morgue.

leopold:
Leopold! I never knew you were a cardiologist! Where did you serve as an intern?

do you fall over dead when your heart stops hare?

 

[Bells]

the doctors lied to her. a person doesn't die immediately from a heart attack.

Really?

Interesting observation considering his heart stopped 2 seconds after she pulled up at the emergency room door and she had sprinted in begging for help while the police officers who were "following her after she ran the red light" attempted to help her father out of the car. His heart stopped as he stepped through the doors to the emergency room and he was clinically dead. The only reason he survived was because medical help was there at hand immediately. Had she stopped for the police, his heart would have stopped while they were still on the road speaking to the police officers about going through the red light without medical aid to shock him back to life.

His brother (my father's other brother) died immediately upon having had a heart attack, even though his wife had called an ambulance when the symptoms first occured and was unable to be revived. His sister, died instantly when she suffered a massive and deadly coronary "event" and was unable to be revived.

No Leo, people do can and do die immediately after having had a heart attack. If medical aid is on hand you might have a chance.

----------------------------------------------------

As to the issue at hand. The police did not charge the woman or her husband for running through the red light or nor pulling over. I was away and saw a police officer I'd worked with in the past and we had a little chat about it and his comment was that the two police officers involved in that incident were "idiots" and were lucky they did not lose their jobs as the couple did complain to the police department and were instead reprimanded and forced to undergo courses about how to recognise medical emergencies. The woman was giving birth in the car when she was dragged out and it was lucky the baby did not come out and hit the ground as she was pulled out of the car. The security guard who was in the waiting room of the emergency department and had seen the man drive up, bolt out of the car and into the emergency room screaming for help for his wife had noticed what the police were too blind to see. He had already run outside to help her and had pushed the police officer off her as he tried to arrest her. Two doctors and 3 nurses were already running out and literally helped her deliver the child then and there. The woman had apparently lowered the back of her seat and had both legs on the dash board and was pushing when she was dragged out. Now for anyone to say "he could not have known she was pregnant" would mean that the police officer in question was a total moron as even a deaf, blind and dumb individual would have recognised that she was in fact giving birth.

Had the woman or the man been tasered, then she could have lost the child as I can't even begin to imagine what it could do to a woman who's in the process of child birth, which puts a hell of a lot of stress on her body and heart in the first place. Had he been tasered for trying to get his wife the medical help she so desperately needed, then I'd imagine it would have gone public and the officers would have had to face more than a reprimand.

Yes there are occasions when tasers might be useful. But to taser a child or someone who is mentally retarded, well it's kind of idiotic. What kind of police officer can you be if you cannot control a small child? Or someone you see is mentally retarded? And pregnant women? Sure you might say that she should not have placed her child in the position to be tasered in the first place but what the hell kind of police officer tasers her and uses that excuse as a justification for possibly injuring or killing her unborn child? Are police officers that weak that they are unable to not use violence against others who are weaker than they when other means could be used to resolve the situation where no one gets hurt?

 

[Baron Max]

But to taser a child or someone who is mentally retarded, well it's kind of idiotic. What kind of police officer can you be if you cannot control a small child? Or someone you see is mentally retarded?

It would be interesting to see how many people are killed each year by children and/or mentally retarded people. I mean, like say the two children who were also mentally disturbed who walked into the Columbine school, for example? Or the mentally deranged killer at the Amish school?

I've also recently read about the number of underage kids in California who are recruited by older gang members to do the killing for them ...because the laws are so lenient that an underage kid can kill (police, too) and be let out without even a record when they become legal adults.

So a cop walks up to a mentally deranged child with a smile on his face ....and finds himself shot dead on the street! But we can all rest easier because that cop didn't hurt the little kid, huh?

Baron Max

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I've also recently read about the number of underage kids in California who are recruited by older gang members to do the killing for them ...because the laws are so lenient that an underage kid can kill (police, too) and be let out without even a record when they become legal adults.

So a cop walks up to a mentally deranged child with a smile on his face ....and finds himself shot dead on the street! But we can all rest easier because that cop didn't hurt the little kid, huh?

Baron Max

Sad that you constructed a society for yourselves in which humanity is so utterly lost.