Studies say: soul exists.
- Thread starter Jan Ardena
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You have 3 axioms:
1) Everything needs a creator
2) 1 does not apply to the master-creator
3) The master-creator is intelligent.
None of these are at all supported by anything but your belief. If you have an accepted set of axioms which leads THROUGH logic to these 3, show it.
Us being here does not mean that there exists a master creator. It could just as likely mean that the universe has always been here, and that life is an emergent property of the universe. No demonstratable need (or logic) behind a higher intelligence.
1) Everything needs a creator
2) 1 does not apply to the master-creator
3) The master-creator is intelligent.
None of these are at all supported by anything but your belief. If you have an accepted set of axioms which leads THROUGH logic to these 3, show it.
Us being here does not mean that there exists a master creator. It could just as likely mean that the universe has always been here, and that life is an emergent property of the universe. No demonstratable need (or logic) behind a higher intelligence.
Wesmorris
Existing does not mean "created". It definately means "happened", but "why" is simply absent from attainable knowledge. You are simply assuming it.
Both are different words, but the word exist needs the word create first to be applicable, how can u say that somethin exists? without being created?
Existing does not mean "created". It definately means "happened", but "why" is simply absent from attainable knowledge. You are simply assuming it.
Both are different words, but the word exist needs the word create first to be applicable, how can u say that somethin exists? without being created?
Tdmasta said:
because creation implies intent, to which you are not privy.
in the sense that it is wholly absent from data. any perceived intent is placed there by the individual conceiving that they perceive that intent.
why? well, where else can it come from?
how is it that we interpret intent?
we do it from history. we know people, we see what they do.. we learn to see generalities in their behavior that allows us to predict their reaction to whatever we my pose to them.
do you think you can relate to a deity?
really?
If so: I'd say you've got an issue with your ego.
In not: You have no frame of reference with which to interpret the intent of a being with which you have no history.
so, you cannot speak to the intent of something that you don't have any means to comprehend.
so god is irrelevant.
cannot say yes, cannot say no...
and to indulge in opinion:
if there is a god, he made reason such that the above is true, so he would want us to go about our business, ignoring him. imo, that is a truly graceful gift giver. if we are decent, we would honor him in deed by honoring ourselves in the gift we were given.
again though, with no ability to really comprehend that type of a being, that cannot exceed the status of opinion.
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Persol
No demonstratable need (or logic) behind a higher intelligence.
We are already one, and again the universe its not a being with own will to wanted all of this to exist including us, its just a mix of matter and alive beings, dont talk about the universe as person like you and me. a similar being to us is needed to make higher intelligences as complex as us , to make our existence, otherwise nothing like our race or the universe should be possible, like saying a mindless universe made all , and itself, without existing, thats ilogical.
From those points, yes theres a creator.
No demonstratable need (or logic) behind a higher intelligence.
We are already one, and again the universe its not a being with own will to wanted all of this to exist including us, its just a mix of matter and alive beings, dont talk about the universe as person like you and me. a similar being to us is needed to make higher intelligences as complex as us , to make our existence, otherwise nothing like our race or the universe should be possible, like saying a mindless universe made all , and itself, without existing, thats ilogical.
From those points, yes theres a creator.
dont talk about the universe as person like you and me
You will notice that I didn't. Why is a 'similar being to us needed'. Similarly, I can use your same argument to show that God needs a creator.
1) God is similar to us.
2) A similar being to God is neeed to make higher imtelligences as complex as God.
3) Otherwise nothing like God should be possible.
4) Like saying God created himself (when you stated clearly that a higher intelligence is needed for creation).
You will notice that I didn't. Why is a 'similar being to us needed'. Similarly, I can use your same argument to show that God needs a creator.
1) God is similar to us.
2) A similar being to God is neeed to make higher imtelligences as complex as God.
3) Otherwise nothing like God should be possible.
4) Like saying God created himself (when you stated clearly that a higher intelligence is needed for creation).
Persol
1) God is similar to us.
2) A similar being to God is neeed to make higher imtelligences as complex as God.
3) Otherwise nothing like God should be possible.
4) Like saying God created himself (when you stated clearly that a higher intelligence is needed for creation).
1/2/3/4) God its the only one who cuts those rules since its not creation, nothing what u said its applicable to a creator only to creation.
Its easy to understand , but ull never accept it here. youll always come again, repeating similar arguments, to say God doesnt exist.
continue negating your existence since theres no creator to you...
1) God is similar to us.
2) A similar being to God is neeed to make higher imtelligences as complex as God.
3) Otherwise nothing like God should be possible.
4) Like saying God created himself (when you stated clearly that a higher intelligence is needed for creation).
1/2/3/4) God its the only one who cuts those rules since its not creation, nothing what u said its applicable to a creator only to creation.
Its easy to understand , but ull never accept it here. youll always come again, repeating similar arguments, to say God doesnt exist.
continue negating your existence since theres no creator to you...
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nothing what u said its applicable to a creator only o creation
How do you fail to see that this is unsubstantiated?
If God is an exception to the rule of 'complexity requires a creator', how do you the universe and everything in it is also not an exception to that rule? How do you know that it is a rule at all?
You don't. You are making assumptions without any support. It's fine if you understand and admit that, but you don't seem to understand the difference between logic and assumption.
continue negating your existence since theres no creator to you...
This is a poor argument since the point is that you haven't shown that an creator outside of the universe is at all needed.
How do you fail to see that this is unsubstantiated?
If God is an exception to the rule of 'complexity requires a creator', how do you the universe and everything in it is also not an exception to that rule? How do you know that it is a rule at all?
You don't. You are making assumptions without any support. It's fine if you understand and admit that, but you don't seem to understand the difference between logic and assumption.
continue negating your existence since theres no creator to you...
This is a poor argument since the point is that you haven't shown that an creator outside of the universe is at all needed.
Its easy to understand , but ull never accept it here.
Yes, and yes.
it is also easy to understand that pink flying elephants made the universe. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it is right. That is where supporting you idea comes into play.
repeating similar arguments
See, that's the problem here. I'm presenting arguments hoping that you'll at least look at them logically. You have not, and simply repeat your set of arbitrary rules. Arbitrary rules do not make a valid argument or discussion.
Yes, and yes.
it is also easy to understand that pink flying elephants made the universe. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it is right. That is where supporting you idea comes into play.
repeating similar arguments
See, that's the problem here. I'm presenting arguments hoping that you'll at least look at them logically. You have not, and simply repeat your set of arbitrary rules. Arbitrary rules do not make a valid argument or discussion.
Persol
If God is an exception to the rule of 'complexity requires a creator', how do you the universe and everything in it is also not an exception to that rule? How do you know that it is a rule at all?
Because we are not creators we are part of the creation that you see right in front of you, and where you live (earth/universe).
Persol
This is a poor argument since the point is that you haven't shown that an creator outside of the universe is at all needed.
Really you cant say that we just popped out of nothing(like magic) we are enough complex to need a superior being to exist and thats includes the universe.
Please understand no creator u dont exist, nothing exists, u are creation.
If God is an exception to the rule of 'complexity requires a creator', how do you the universe and everything in it is also not an exception to that rule? How do you know that it is a rule at all?
Because we are not creators we are part of the creation that you see right in front of you, and where you live (earth/universe).
Persol
This is a poor argument since the point is that you haven't shown that an creator outside of the universe is at all needed.
Really you cant say that we just popped out of nothing(like magic) we are enough complex to need a superior being to exist and thats includes the universe.
Please understand no creator u dont exist, nothing exists, u are creation.
Because we are not creators we are part of the creation that you see right in front of you.
Circular logic. Try again. You have not actually shown any creation. Do not say that a creation is needed, because that goes against your claim of God.
Really you cant say that we just popped out of nothing(like magic) we are enough complex to need a superior being to exist and thats includes the universe.
Have you been paying attention. Saying we popped out of nothin is no more or less logical then saying God always existed (like magic). Also, you have YET to show that 'complexity needs a superior being'... and that is central to your lack of reasoning.
Lay out your reasoning step by step. First list all the assumptions you have to make for your argument. Then list all the steps you need to get to a creator being needed to create us and the soul. Currently, you are just talking in circles.
Circular logic. Try again. You have not actually shown any creation. Do not say that a creation is needed, because that goes against your claim of God.
Really you cant say that we just popped out of nothing(like magic) we are enough complex to need a superior being to exist and thats includes the universe.
Have you been paying attention. Saying we popped out of nothin is no more or less logical then saying God always existed (like magic). Also, you have YET to show that 'complexity needs a superior being'... and that is central to your lack of reasoning.
Lay out your reasoning step by step. First list all the assumptions you have to make for your argument. Then list all the steps you need to get to a creator being needed to create us and the soul. Currently, you are just talking in circles.
Also, what do you think is logically inconsistent with the following?
"The universe always existed. We were created and evolved through natural processes".
Note that if you claim that the universe has not always existed, you need to back it up. Not simply by just saying 'it needs a creator'.
I am in no way saying that "the universe always existed" is true or false. It is just one example of many possible explanations which you ignore without reason.
"The universe always existed. We were created and evolved through natural processes".
Note that if you claim that the universe has not always existed, you need to back it up. Not simply by just saying 'it needs a creator'.
I am in no way saying that "the universe always existed" is true or false. It is just one example of many possible explanations which you ignore without reason.
Persol
it is also easy to understand that pink flying elephants made the universe. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it is right. That is where supporting you idea comes into play.
Im not taking about an specifical being like you said ,im talking about the "creator" and our existence, since we are not creators, and no its no simple its just generalizing the topic, to understand
Persol
See, that's the problem here. I'm presenting arguments hoping that you'll at least look at them logically. You have not, and simply repeat your set of arbitrary rules. Arbitrary rules do not make a valid argument or discussion.
As you can see i have talked about every point you said here, so dont tell me that.
it is also easy to understand that pink flying elephants made the universe. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it is right. That is where supporting you idea comes into play.
Im not taking about an specifical being like you said ,im talking about the "creator" and our existence, since we are not creators, and no its no simple its just generalizing the topic, to understand
Persol
See, that's the problem here. I'm presenting arguments hoping that you'll at least look at them logically. You have not, and simply repeat your set of arbitrary rules. Arbitrary rules do not make a valid argument or discussion.
As you can see i have talked about every point you said here, so dont tell me that.
Persol
Circular logic. Try again. You have not actually shown any creation.
Not shown any? then me, you and everything we see doesnt exist.....
Thats the creation myf.
Persol
Do not say that a creation is needed, because that goes against your claim of God.
Didnt said that.
Persol
Have you been paying attention. Saying we popped out of nothin is no more or less logical then saying God always existed (like magic). Also, you have YET to show that 'complexity needs a superior being'... and that is central to your lack of reasoning.
You didnt hear? the creator breaks our rules, since hes not like anything in the universe, and its not another creation.
Yes it needs , since only a superior being has the knowledge to create a simplier one, and dont miss the point , nothing can exist without a creator, since pure matter lacks power of creation it can only transform, and this being logically needs superior knowledge and power for us to exist here, just see yourself, are you a mere alive being product of the "universe intelligence and will"? of course not.
Persol
Lay out your reasoning step by step. First list all the assumptions you have to make for your argument. Then list all the steps you need to get to a creator being needed to create us and the soul. Currently, you are just talking in circles
Im pointing arguments, you just base on your theory:
" The universe, and the big bang just popped out of nothin, just because (.. notice its a natural reaction not a being) it wanted to big bang, then we exist just because it(notice) wanted ".
No logic found on your theory ,believing thats theres an intelligent powerful being with its own will just like us its more logic , since nothin that lacks own will , knowledge and existence can made itself(impossible) and we exist.
Circular logic. Try again. You have not actually shown any creation.
Not shown any? then me, you and everything we see doesnt exist.....
Thats the creation myf.
Persol
Do not say that a creation is needed, because that goes against your claim of God.
Didnt said that.
Persol
Have you been paying attention. Saying we popped out of nothin is no more or less logical then saying God always existed (like magic). Also, you have YET to show that 'complexity needs a superior being'... and that is central to your lack of reasoning.
You didnt hear? the creator breaks our rules, since hes not like anything in the universe, and its not another creation.
Yes it needs , since only a superior being has the knowledge to create a simplier one, and dont miss the point , nothing can exist without a creator, since pure matter lacks power of creation it can only transform, and this being logically needs superior knowledge and power for us to exist here, just see yourself, are you a mere alive being product of the "universe intelligence and will"? of course not.
Persol
Lay out your reasoning step by step. First list all the assumptions you have to make for your argument. Then list all the steps you need to get to a creator being needed to create us and the soul. Currently, you are just talking in circles
Im pointing arguments, you just base on your theory:
" The universe, and the big bang just popped out of nothin, just because (.. notice its a natural reaction not a being) it wanted to big bang, then we exist just because it(notice) wanted ".
No logic found on your theory ,believing thats theres an intelligent powerful being with its own will just like us its more logic , since nothin that lacks own will , knowledge and existence can made itself(impossible) and we exist.
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As you can see i have talked about every point you said here, so dont tell me that.
'we need a creator because we are complex' - unsupported
'everything needs a creator, but there exists a being to which this doesn't apply' - unsupported
'a similar being to us is needed to make higher intelligences as complex as us ' - unsupported
'like saying a mindless universe made all , and itself, without existing' - strawman
'we are creation' - unsupported
'its obiously not a mindless rock who made all' - unsupported
'fact ur proof of it since u exist and are talking right now about this' - unsupported
'that also ends with the being who always existed and never need and external being to always exist, can also called alfa-omega. but nothing before' - unsupported
'the universe can not be this alpha-omega' (implied by you) - unsupported
Your ATTEMPT to support these claims was circular logic.IE:
We need a creator because we were created. We were created because we have exist. We exist because we were created.
Now if you don't understand what I mean by 'cicular logic', or why it's a problem, then ask. Otherwise, I ask again:
List all the assumptions you have to make for your argument (one per line). Then list all the steps you need to get to a creator being needed to create us and the soul (one per line, only depending on the lines above it).
'we need a creator because we are complex' - unsupported
'everything needs a creator, but there exists a being to which this doesn't apply' - unsupported
'a similar being to us is needed to make higher intelligences as complex as us ' - unsupported
'like saying a mindless universe made all , and itself, without existing' - strawman
'we are creation' - unsupported
'its obiously not a mindless rock who made all' - unsupported
'fact ur proof of it since u exist and are talking right now about this' - unsupported
'that also ends with the being who always existed and never need and external being to always exist, can also called alfa-omega. but nothing before' - unsupported
'the universe can not be this alpha-omega' (implied by you) - unsupported
Your ATTEMPT to support these claims was circular logic.IE:
We need a creator because we were created. We were created because we have exist. We exist because we were created.
Now if you don't understand what I mean by 'cicular logic', or why it's a problem, then ask. Otherwise, I ask again:
List all the assumptions you have to make for your argument (one per line). Then list all the steps you need to get to a creator being needed to create us and the soul (one per line, only depending on the lines above it).
Wesmorris
if there is a god, he made reason such that the above is true, so he would want us to go about our business, ignoring him. imo, that is a truly graceful gift giver. if we are decent, we would honor him in deed by honoring ourselves in the gift we were given.
I agree thats our cause, at least your more open than persol by pointing both sides...
Persol
1)we need a creator because we are complex' - unsupported.
2)everything needs a creator, but there exists a being to which this doesn't apply' - unsupported.
3)a similar being to us is needed to make higher intelligences as complex as us ' - unsupported.
4)'like saying a mindless universe made all , and itself, without existing' - strawman
5)'we are creation' - unsupported
6)'its obiously not a mindless rock who made all' - unsupported
7)fact ur proof of it since u exist and are talking right now about this' - unsupported
8)that also ends with the being who always existed and never need and eternal being to always exist, can also called alfa-omega. but nothing before' - unsupported
9)the universe can not be this alpha-omega' (implied by you) - unsupported
1) We dont need a creator for complexity, but for existence.
2)Yes it applies, since a creator cant be created, you are breakin the logic if you believe so, rember nothing in the universe can create including us, just transform the already made matter by the creator.
3)As we transform matter (our race), as we are complex , as the universe is complex and we and it didnt made itself , yes a far advanced being capable of creating is necessary to the matter existence, since matter lacks will and didnt made itself, finally the creator needs to exist to the matter existence, saying that matter exists just because has no logic, its talking about magic.
4) Its not a point its what you are trying to claim with every post u make.
5)Yes we are, since we are not fond of ourselves.
6)Yes its obvious, unless you can believe on it.
7) Yes u exist , u are here talking thinking, and having conflict in yourself right now about this topic , preventing from being contradicted, ur matter, and u were created, parting from the human existence, that cant even wonder how we are here.
8) Yes its supported that only the creator its the beginning and the end,(alfa--omega), since it NEVER needed to be created. its has been always there.
9) yes it cannot since its a mix of alive beings and dead matter, not a sole being with will of creation as you may think.
About soul you can be good or evil and have own will , IE: ur an individual being with good or evil coviction not just intelligent matter so you have more than just human body(soul), somethin that a machine will always lack, even if its a smart machine, with intelligent decisions, it will always be a mere intelligent object, not like machines are evil.
Persol
"The universe always existed. We were created and evolved through natural processes".
Note that if you claim that the universe has not always existed, you need to back it up. Not simply by just saying 'it needs a creator'.I am in no way saying that "the universe always existed" is true or false. It is just one example of many possible explanations which you ignore without reason.
Again your talking about the universe , like a another being , face it its not,
and since IT is NOT the creator, its not applicable as matter who always existed, its just creation, not comparable to the creator , who chose the matter(universe/US), to exist, and notice, its a decision, not like the universe take that decison.
Persol
Your ATTEMPT to support these claims was circular logic.IE:
We need a creator because we were created. We were created because we have exist. We exist because we were created.
Finally.....
Its straight logic since it has a beginning and an end ,u exist, u need and external creator(call it whatever u like) or u cant be here since ur contradicting your own existence for being creation, and really no logic is found on what you think.
And think really good your answer before posting more or at least believe that somthin made you , ie: instead that the very magic of nothing made our race and your existence, its minimizing the deep human being......
if there is a god, he made reason such that the above is true, so he would want us to go about our business, ignoring him. imo, that is a truly graceful gift giver. if we are decent, we would honor him in deed by honoring ourselves in the gift we were given.
I agree thats our cause, at least your more open than persol by pointing both sides...
Persol
1)we need a creator because we are complex' - unsupported.
2)everything needs a creator, but there exists a being to which this doesn't apply' - unsupported.
3)a similar being to us is needed to make higher intelligences as complex as us ' - unsupported.
4)'like saying a mindless universe made all , and itself, without existing' - strawman
5)'we are creation' - unsupported
6)'its obiously not a mindless rock who made all' - unsupported
7)fact ur proof of it since u exist and are talking right now about this' - unsupported
8)that also ends with the being who always existed and never need and eternal being to always exist, can also called alfa-omega. but nothing before' - unsupported
9)the universe can not be this alpha-omega' (implied by you) - unsupported
1) We dont need a creator for complexity, but for existence.
2)Yes it applies, since a creator cant be created, you are breakin the logic if you believe so, rember nothing in the universe can create including us, just transform the already made matter by the creator.
3)As we transform matter (our race), as we are complex , as the universe is complex and we and it didnt made itself , yes a far advanced being capable of creating is necessary to the matter existence, since matter lacks will and didnt made itself, finally the creator needs to exist to the matter existence, saying that matter exists just because has no logic, its talking about magic.
4) Its not a point its what you are trying to claim with every post u make.
5)Yes we are, since we are not fond of ourselves.
6)Yes its obvious, unless you can believe on it.
7) Yes u exist , u are here talking thinking, and having conflict in yourself right now about this topic , preventing from being contradicted, ur matter, and u were created, parting from the human existence, that cant even wonder how we are here.
8) Yes its supported that only the creator its the beginning and the end,(alfa--omega), since it NEVER needed to be created. its has been always there.
9) yes it cannot since its a mix of alive beings and dead matter, not a sole being with will of creation as you may think.
About soul you can be good or evil and have own will , IE: ur an individual being with good or evil coviction not just intelligent matter so you have more than just human body(soul), somethin that a machine will always lack, even if its a smart machine, with intelligent decisions, it will always be a mere intelligent object, not like machines are evil.
Persol
"The universe always existed. We were created and evolved through natural processes".
Note that if you claim that the universe has not always existed, you need to back it up. Not simply by just saying 'it needs a creator'.I am in no way saying that "the universe always existed" is true or false. It is just one example of many possible explanations which you ignore without reason.
Again your talking about the universe , like a another being , face it its not,
and since IT is NOT the creator, its not applicable as matter who always existed, its just creation, not comparable to the creator , who chose the matter(universe/US), to exist, and notice, its a decision, not like the universe take that decison.
Persol
Your ATTEMPT to support these claims was circular logic.IE:
We need a creator because we were created. We were created because we have exist. We exist because we were created.
Finally.....
Its straight logic since it has a beginning and an end ,u exist, u need and external creator(call it whatever u like) or u cant be here since ur contradicting your own existence for being creation, and really no logic is found on what you think.
And think really good your answer before posting more or at least believe that somthin made you , ie: instead that the very magic of nothing made our race and your existence, its minimizing the deep human being......
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Its straight logic, circular would be the creator needs a creator and SO ON, like you say, but youll never understand as i can see, if you simply dont want to accept it, even if its true youll never want to understand, since your mind is closed to your eyes sight.....