Street Harrassment.!!!

[James R]

Motor Daddy:

How do you differentiate the creep from the kind neighbor?

The kind neighbour introduces himself to you when he moves in next door. And then you chat over the fence once in a while, maybe. He doesn't introduce himself to you by commenting on what nice tits you have, or by walking along silently beside you for five minutes when you leave the house to get some bread from the shop.

See the difference? With the kind neighbour, you have a normal, human interaction. With the creep, you are treated as an object to be intimidated or ogled at.

If the kind neighbor says you look nice in that dress, do you turn to him and call him a harassing creep? If not, what is different about the guy on the street that tells you you look nice in that dress?

The difference is that you've known the neighbour for a month or a year or 10 years before he comments on your dress. He doesn't make a regular point of it, and you don't see him hanging over his front fence commenting on the dress of every woman who walks past in the street.

Really, Motor Daddy, I wonder how you manage to navigate your everyday life, when you seem so clueless about ordinary social etiquette.

So do you also recommend to other women to avoid walking down the street/streets the video was recorded, now that you know that this woman was harassed over 100 times in 10 hours?

I recommend that the men on those streets start acting like decent human beings. Is that too much to ask?

Are all harassing creeps male?

Pretty much, yes. How many harassing creep women have you come across? It doesn't seem to be a widely-reported problem by men.

Why not? He commented on your appearance, that's a no no, right? Or is the problem that too many compliments are a hassle for you to deal with?

Like milkweed, you don't seem to get it. You're actually blind to what the problem is. The problem is the implied threat that often goes with the comments. And remember, we're not just talking about comments here. We're talking about a guy walking along beside a woman, invading her personal space, for five minutes.

The problem is also that certain men feels entitled to make comments to a complete stranger, in total disregard of whether those comments are wanted or not. The problem is that certain men feel entitled to seek to dominate a public space, in total disregard of the others with whom they share that space. The problem is that certain men feel entitled to intrude from a public space into the private space of complete strangers, without their invitation or consent.

Now pestering is saying, "you look nice in that dress"? So the neighbor is pestering too, no? They said the same thing, so he/she is pestering too!

Work it out, Einstein. Pre-existing relationship? The existence of prior conversations? The fact that one interaction is welcomed and the other is not? The fact that two parties are on equal terms in one interaction but not in the other?

Now it's a threat to tell someone they look nice in that dress?

It certainly can be.

Suppose a strange guy approaches you on a train and says "That's a nice phone you've got there. I think I'd like to have me a phone just like that one." Could that be a threat, do you think? Surely not. He's just telling you he likes your phone, right?

Again, I wonder how you manage to operate in the social world.

Are you honestly unable to distinguish between a truck load of compliments, and harassment? Do you get confused when 104 neighbors tell you, nice dress? Is it all so overwhelming you just want to be able to walk down the street without anyone telling you, nice dress?

What if every time you take the train, you have burly guys commenting on what a nice phone you have and how they'd like to have one just like it, as they move right up next to you and stand looking down at you with arms crossed? Do you think you'd ever get sick of it? Do you think you might want that behaviour to stop? Do you think you'd ever feel harassed? Or do you think you'd twirl your phone for them and show off its functions - just to be neighbourly, you know?

So when I tell a woman, nice dress, and she tells me to get lost you loser lawless creep, I know I should never tell a woman that she looks great in that dress, ever!

And again, I wonder how you manage to operate in the social world.

 

[James R]

I think every human being should be harassment free, on every street, everywhere. Do you think males should be harassment free too on every street, everywhere? I'm not sure, you only ever talk about how women should have the right to be safe. Men too, no? Maybe in your mind there is a us vs them?

Now this is an interesting tactic in the conversation, isn't it Motor Daddy?

Recall that we're having a conversation about harassment in this thread. And here you are telling a woman that because she is against harassment by men on the street she must hate men and have an "us vs them" attitude.

Also, you've fallen into a fallacy of argument known as tu quoque. Go look it up.

 

[James R]

So if women walk around the streets for hours trying to attract attention, a stranger may approach them and start talking to them.

It obviously doesn't take hours. This woman got over 100 comments in 10 hours. 100 comments in 10 hours is one every 6 minutes, on average.

Are women so weak and fragile that they can't get over an unwanted look or advance?

Why should it be up to women to "get over it" or "put up with it" (which is really what you're saying)?

Shouldn't it be up to men not to harass in the first place? Are men so weak that they just can't help harassing women on the street?

And bear in mind that we're not talking one unwanted look or advance, but one every six minutes.

Is that the current state of 'empowered' women? Men receive unwelcome looks and advances when out in public as well, and in most cases it is forgotten about in an hour's time.

Really? I think that if you had guys regularly harassing you on the train (see my comments to Motor Daddy, above), you'd think about changing your schedule or something to avoid that harassment. I don't think you'd just forget about it.

One of my ex's used to say that for many women, attention is currency, which is why they attempt to create drama in their lives, and the lives of their family and friends. However, when they receive said attention, they feign indignation.

You have it the wrong way around. I think that these men who harass women on the street are just desperate for attention. Partly, they are saying "Please notice me! I'm important. Really I am."

It's poor etiquette to harass others. Unfortunately, you're going to run into rude people where-ever you go, irrespective of gender. Women feigning indignation over an innocent look or comment is quite concerning, though. If they are so fragile, how will they withstand true hardship in life>?

You don't seem to get it either. "Innocent look or comment". Right. Saying "Well, hello there!" might be innocent if the guy doing it said it to passing men as well as to women, that's not what happens. And I can't really comprehend how purposefully walking silently alongside a complete stranger for five minutes can be construed as "innocent".

Women are autonomous beings. How they choose to respond to an unwanted advance is in their court. They can either act as though an unwanted look or word is the equivalent of a bullet, or take control of their feelings and actions.

Men are autonomous beings. They can choose to make unwanted advances or not to. They can act like dickheads or take control of their feelings and actions. Agree?

 

[milkweed]

milkweed:
Since when did walking along beside a complete stranger for five minutes become "casual interaction"?

Can't you see that these "interactions" are not welcomed by their recipients? Was it not clear to that guy when the woman said nothing for five minutes that he was making her uncomfortable or that he was unwelcome?

Nope. But I dont consider myself a threat because I am not, just like Most people are not a threat. And reality is while walking alongside, he initiated no conversation and was just another person walking down the street.

"Nice ass!"
"Show us your tits!"
"Oooh baby. I'd like to get me a piece of that!"
"Don't look so glum. Smile!"
"Hey, am I too ugly for you to go out with me?"
"You don't want to talk to me? Why not? Go on, talk to me."

Are these the kinds of compliments you mean? Because that's what we're talking about here.

1,2,3, 4a, 5(increased content)6b and c Did not happen in this video.

Do you really not think that harassment is occurring up the point where some kind of physical assault occurs? Is there no harassment unless there's physical coercion, in your opinion?

And what does it matter that Most Men are Not Rapists? Does that make verbal harassment and physical intimidation acceptable then? Acceptable as long as the guy doesn't actually rape or intend to rape?

Nope. What I said was Most of what is in this video I do not consider harassment. It is presented as a video on street harassment and does not qualify in my opinion. I dont like when people tell me to smile (as one example from the video that relates to my own occasional real life experiences), but I know its not intended to be anything derogatory. Its causal and in fact, I do look better when I am smiling and not wearing my 'bitch face'.

Yeah, and when some guy on the train asks you "What are you looking at?" why don't you just say "I'd prefer it if you didn't use that tone of voice with me, young man. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't want you to address me again, so please keep to yourself until I get off the train. Thanks." ?

According to your logic, I shouldnt be Looking at Him and its My Fault for harassing him [rolls eyes].

You're part of the problem because you don't think there is a problem. You're completely blind to the problem.

Nope, I am not blind to the problem. I dont think this video displays the problem.

And your badgering wont change that opinion.

 

[Motor Daddy]

Motor Daddy:



The kind neighbour introduces himself to you when he moves in next door.

If it's a male neighbor, and he's not gay, transvestite, or a cross dresser, he's automatically a weirdo, according to Bells, and possibly in your book too, no? Let's just see where you stand from the beginning, James. Do you consider me to be a weirdo if I am not gay, transvestite, or a cross dresser, like Bells does?

 

[James R]

milkweed,

Nope. But I dont consider myself a threat because I am not, just like Most people are not a threat.

How is the woman walking along the street supposed to know that the guy who has insisted on walking right beside her silently for five minutes is not a threat but is in fact a nice guy who is insisting on walking beside her because .... because he wants bit of fresh air?

If he seems threatening to her, then don't you think there's a problem with what he is doing?

And reality is while walking alongside, he initiated no conversation and was just another person walking down the street.

Just another person walking along the street right beside her, in step with her, making the same turns she did, stopping and starting when she did. All without saying anything. Yeah, right.

1,2,3, 4a, 5(increased content)6b and c Did not happen in this video.

You're splitting hairs and you know it.

I dont like when people tell me to smile (as one example from the video that relates to my own occasional real life experiences), but I know its not intended to be anything derogatory.

It sounds like you might have a bit of a problem with strangers who feel entitled to tell you to smile. Why is that? Aren't they just innocent people with good intentions?

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you have no problem with strangers telling you that you are at fault in some way or that you should act in a way that pleases them. Is that right, or is there a potential problem with that?

According to your logic, I shouldnt be Looking at Him and its My Fault for harassing him [rolls eyes].

No. You missed the point. I'm asking you why you wouldn't tell the big guy on the train to mind his own business - just like some people in this thread are advising women to just tell their street harassers that their comments are not welcome.

See?

Nope, I am not blind to the problem. I dont think this video displays the problem.

And your badgering wont change that opinion.

So there is a problem, but this video doesn't show it.

Please tell me at what point you think that street behaviour similar to this becomes a problem worth worrying about, rather than something that women should just get over.

 

[James R]

If it's a male neighbor, and he's not gay, transvestite, or a cross dresser, he's automatically a weirdo, according to Bells, and possibly in your book to, no? Let's just see where you stand from the beginning, James. Do you consider me to be a weirdo if I am not gay, transvestite, or a cross dresser, like Bells does?

That's the best you can do, Motor Daddy?

You don't want an honest discussion. Be gone. You're wasting everybody's time.

 

[Motor Daddy]

That's the best you can do, Motor Daddy?

Obviously it's a waste of time talking to you. You don't want an honest discussion. Be gone. You're wasting everybody's time.

So I am a weirdo in your book too?

 

[James R]

So I am a weirdo in your book too?

Not interested, Motor Daddy. Come back when you have something honest to say.

 

[Motor Daddy]

LOL

BWAHAHAHAAAAAAA

You crack me up, James R!!

Confused once again!!

Bwahahaahahahahaaa

 

[James R]

You're on very thin ice, Motor Daddy.

 

[Motor Daddy]

I've made my point here. I'm done!

 

[James R]

So have I.

Very telling that you had no response to my train example, Motor Daddy.

Have a nice day!

 

[milkweed]

How is the woman walking along the street supposed to know that the guy who has insisted on walking right beside her silently for five minutes is not a threat but is in fact a nice guy who is insisting on walking beside her because .... because he wants bit of fresh air?

If he seems threatening to her, then don't you think there's a problem with what he is doing?

If most men are not a threat (and they are not), shouldnt she have a societal obligation to not assume the worst in people based on gender, or color, or religion? Attributes all displayed in the first 15 seconds of that portion of the video.

Just another person walking along the street right beside her, in step with her, making the same turns she did, stopping and starting when she did. All without saying anything. Yeah, right.

We are all obligated to stop for a red light and cross at the green. I saw no turns displayed in that portion of the video and only one with a different man who did not follow.

You're splitting hairs and you know it.

And your making stuff up then whining when I dont agree.

It sounds like you might have a bit of a problem with strangers who feel entitled to tell you to smile. Why is that? Aren't they just innocent people with good intentions?

What you dont seem to get is while I sometimes find it annoying, I can also accept that it has no bad intent. That it can be neither good or bad. Or that I am comfortable enough in life that I dont expect a perfect world nor forget that I am not perfect, and that I dont expect the world to revolve around my mood(s).

No. You missed the point. I'm asking you why you wouldn't tell the big guy on the train to mind his own business - just like some people in this thread are advising women to just tell their street harassers that their comments are not welcome.

See I think you miss the point. I didnt say I wouldnt tell the big guy on the train anything.
See?

 

[sculptor]

So there is a problem, but this video doesn't show it.

Agreed
However, this is an emotionally driven subject which tends to emotional politically correct responses from those who would be politically correct.

The "harassment" in the posted video was/is most assuredly in the eye of the beholder.
We can accept that on a purely subjective level.
Projecting that subjective victimization out to other people, then becomes problematic.
Some people occasionally need to feel as though they have been/are being victimized.
Do we blindly accept their personal subjective feelings on the actions as a universal truth?
Then what?
Where do we draw the line?

If someone says "nice shirt" do I feel rage and embarrassment over the frayed cuffs?
Can I assume that all who behold the interaction will also feel that I have been victimized and harassed?

 

[milkweed]

Agreed
Do we blindly accept their personal subjective feelings on the actions as a universal truth?
Then what?
Where do we draw the line?

If someone says "nice shirt" do I feel rage and embarrassment over the frayed cuffs?
Can I assume that all who behold the interaction will also feel that I have been victimized and harassed?

And when I watched the video I thought, wow, we've come a long way if thats all that 10 hours of walking the mean streets of NY provides.

Do you feel rage or gratitude when someone tells you your fly is open?
Do you feel embarrassment when you discover your fly's down and you have no idea how long/how many saw?

 

[Bells]

If most men are not a threat (and they are not), shouldnt she have a societal obligation to not assume the worst in people based on gender, or color, or religion? Attributes all displayed in the first 15 seconds of that portion of the video.

How do you know who is not a threat?

On the one hand, you have the prevention advocates listing certain set of behaviours and what women should and should not do and on the other, we have people who claim that women should just assume that the guy who is harassing and stalking them in the street is not really a threat...

Personally, any person (stranger) who takes to following me in the street, invading my personal space and/or accosting me is viewed as a threat.

We are all obligated to stop for a red light and cross at the green. I saw no turns displayed in that portion of the video and only one with a different man who did not follow.

We are also obligated to not harass people in the street..

And your making stuff up then whining when I dont agree.

Well he is entitled to have a different opinion to you. You do know this, yes?

What you dont seem to get is while I sometimes find it annoying, I can also accept that it has no bad intent. That it can be neither good or bad. Or that I am comfortable enough in life that I dont expect a perfect world nor forget that I am not perfect, and that I dont expect the world to revolve around my mood(s).

If there was no bad intent, they would not be approaching you to tell you to smile in the first place.

Because by doing so, they are expecting you to fulfill their desires about how they think you should be acting. And frankly, that does revolve around and contains bad intent.

Of course the world is not perfect. But we should also not be so silly and idiotic to ignore the very obvious problems in society and not try to fix it through the education of our children and getting people to understand what is or is not acceptable?

See I think you miss the point. I didnt say I wouldnt tell the big guy on the train anything.
See?

I would imagine, after your argument here, that you would not because you assume that it was full of good intention...

 

[James R]

milkweed,

If most men are not a threat (and they are not), shouldnt she have a societal obligation to not assume the worst in people based on gender, or color, or religion? Attributes all displayed in the first 15 seconds of that portion of the video.

I didn't see her assuming the worst at any point in the video. What I saw in the video was a whole bunch of men acting towards her in a way that she found unwelcome. The problem is not that these men represented a real physical threat to her - there's no way to tell that from the video, and the video doesn't make that claim. The problem is that these guys all felt entitled to invade her space and to impose themselves on her in various ways. Their gender is only relevant because, presumably, no women walked along beside her silently for 5 minutes (and so on) during the 10 hours. I don't see how color and religion come into it, either. For example, there's no indicator in the video of the religion of the men involved, as far as I can tell.

We are all obligated to stop for a red light and cross at the green. I saw no turns displayed in that portion of the video and only one with a different man who did not follow.

So you think that the guy who walked in step with her, right beside her, for five minutes was just innocently going about his business, do you? Really?

And your making stuff up then whining when I dont agree.

Funny you should characterise my objections to your position as "whining". It's almost as if you don't want to hear what I have to say, so you'd prefer to pretend it's just noise.

It sounds like you might have a bit of a problem with strangers who feel entitled to tell you to smile.

What you dont seem to get is while I sometimes find it annoying, I can also accept that it has no bad intent. That it can be neither good or bad. Or that I am comfortable enough in life that I dont expect a perfect world nor forget that I am not perfect, and that I dont expect the world to revolve around my mood(s).

Well, you sound like a remarkably tolerant individual, milkweed. You're willing to put up with strangers telling you how you ought to act in public. But you must appreciate that other people may not react in the same way that you do. So, what if a woman were to feel uncomfortable at being told to lighten up by a complete stranger? Would that be a problem at all, or do you think she should just get over it and realise that the world doesn't revolve around her moods? Do you demand that she be just like you and accept what you find acceptable? Or do you think that she might be entitled to an opinion about what she finds acceptable and welcome and what she doesn't?

And I'm also interested in where you draw the line, personally. Here are some unsolicited comments. Imagine they are directed at you by a strange man on the street. Which of them (if any) would you feel were harassing, and why?

1. "Good morning."
2. "That's a nice dress you're wearing!"
3. "Hey! Lighten up and smile! You'd look nicer if you smiled."
4. "Hey! Give me a wave, babe!"
5. "You look hot, woman!"
6. "Hey, babe. How about it?"
7. "Hey! I want to you to have my babies!"
8. "Hey honey. How's about you and me getting a room and getting it on?"
9. "Show us your tits!"
10. "Hey, bitch. Are you too stuck up to talk to me?"
11. "OOh. I'd like to take you back to my place and show you what a real man can do."
12. "I know lots of frigid c**ts just like you who won't put out. What you need is a good f**k."
13. "Hey you f**ing whore! How many guys have you had this morning?"

See I think you miss the point. I didnt say I wouldnt tell the big guy on the train anything. See?

I see. You would say to that guy "Look, mister. I don't like your comments, so please keep them to yourself and mind your own business." And you wouldn't worry about his becoming threatening or violent, because most men are not a threat. With luck, that guy is most men.

 

[James R]

The "harassment" in the posted video was/is most assuredly in the eye of the beholder.

And that's what counts when it comes to harassment - especially sexual harassment. It doesn't matter if the sleezy guy at the office doesn't intend to be sleazy when he puts up the Playboy centrefold in the lunch room that he shares with the women who work in the same department. It doesn't matter that he thinks they won't be offended or mind, because he thinks they'll appeciate that he's a red-blooded male with normal sexual needs. No - what will matter when somebody complains about feeling harassed is (a) that she actually feels harassed, (b) that his actions made her feel that way and (c) that in all the circumstances feeling harassed was a reasonable outcome of said actions.

Projecting that subjective victimization out to other people, then becomes problematic.

No. We're dealing with people interacting with one another - living and working together in a shared space. In such a space, everybody should feel comfortable and safe. A woman should be able to feel safe when walking down the street, and she is entitled to be respected when she does so, too.

Some people occasionally need to feel as though they have been/are being victimized.
Do we blindly accept their personal subjective feelings on the actions as a universal truth?

No. We acknowledge their perception as equally valid as everybody's else's and respect their right to feel safe and comfortable as equal members of society.

Then what?
Where do we draw the line?

Where do you draw the line. See my post above, and have a go at answering. I draw the line at comment number 1, if it is unwelcome to the recipient. How about you?

If someone says "nice shirt" do I feel rage and embarrassment over the frayed cuffs?
Can I assume that all who behold the interaction will also feel that I have been victimized and harassed?

How about this: they could ask you how you feel! Or you could tell them how you feel! Why assume? Here you have women on the internet telling you that they have been victimised and harassed. Who are you to tell them that they have not been?

 

[joepistole]

What makes you think she is the only woman this happens to?

Where are all the other videos? Where are all the other complaints? There are roughly 4.5 million women in New York. One would think at least a few of them have access to cameras and can post on Utube. So if this is legit, just the law of large numbers suggests there should be more evidence. There are a lot of hungry reporters/journalists in New York in search of a story not to mention a host of female celebrities.

It’s odd that in a city with more than 4.5 million women that someone wouldn’t have noticed this before and reported it. Perhaps terrorists infected the male population of New York overnight with a “bore” virus which compels men to act like jerks no matter how ugly or plain she maybe. I just don’t think so. I think this is more likely a publicity stunt which appears to have worked very well.

The video was made to show what life is like for women who walk on the street.

Well that is what this lady is telling the world. But do you know that to be the case? If that had happened to any of the women I know, the world would have heard about it long ago.

More to the point, why can't the men who harass women not harass them? I find it really interesting how so many proponents of street harassment are finding fault in the woman. Apparently walking down the street should invite harassment and women who are fed up with being harassed so much are deemed too fragile. If women were fragile as you seem to believe they are, they would not walk down the street. That they do and have to put up with this level of harassment while going about their daily lives tells me that it is the harassers who are fragile and desperate and cannot stand to see women out in public without accosting them.
But seriously though.. What kind of wanker feels the absolute need to accost people in the street to comment on their looks, clothes, their sex, hair, how they walk, where they are walking, etc? And what kind of bigger wanker blames the woman for it?

Questioning the veracity of this video isn’t in any way an endorsement of harassment of any kind. If this video is a truthful, then it is indeed a sad state of affairs. Anyone innocently walking the streets shouldn’t be molested physically or verbally. I don’t think anyone with any sense of decency would think otherwise.