spoon bending

mario said:
I knew you were going to say that slotty. I must be psychic. (heh)

Will the deck contain jokers? Not that it matters. So getting roughly 36 out of 52 cards right 3 times in a row is quite a feat. Why not do that in front of randi and don't take the million $ reward if you don't want to. Just ask that he publishes the result in the media. Then no one will think that there was any hanky panky involved. Er, not that I am implying any here.

I know there is alot of bias for extraordinary claims. Lets put that bias
aside and we'll see what Devil can do. It's easy to push people away by
saying 'thats not possible' and it risks losing sight of someone with
a valid claim.
 
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OK Crunchy, i'll let it alone until you get a result. i know what it ......oops, sorry ;)
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Excellent! Shall we do it Sunday 11-27 then? It would give you a chance to
settle in a little. I'd be more than happy to pick you up and do the driving
as well.

I have a video camera that we can use as an impartial observer to each
experiment and we can review the results together of course.

If this all sounds good then the next step is to swap some contact info.

Thanks.

Hi Devil,

Just a friendly reminder that I will require a response on this.

Thx. -CC
 
Wow - just picked up on this thread.

Ever seen Derren Brown on tv?
He could probably guess a pack of cards 100% - as long as the person on the other side of the table could see each card and repeated it over and over in their head.
But then he isn't reading the cards but the person - and he's very good at it. Very good indeed.

I've seen him get the people at dog-racing tracks to pay out on a losing ticket, and tell people incredible details about dreams they've had, as well as convert a room of unbelievers into devout worshippers in under 30 minutes.

And he freely admits that it is nothing more than just knowing what to say to people at the right time and more importantly how to read their body language.
It's clever stuff - but it's nothing paranormal.
 
Sarkus said:
Wow - just picked up on this thread.

Ever seen Derren Brown on tv?
He could probably guess a pack of cards 100% - as long as the person on the other side of the table could see each card and repeated it over and over in their head.
But then he isn't reading the cards but the person - and he's very good at it. Very good indeed.

I've seen him get the people at dog-racing tracks to pay out on a losing ticket, and tell people incredible details about dreams they've had, as well as convert a room of unbelievers into devout worshippers in under 30 minutes.

And he freely admits that it is nothing more than just knowing what to say to people at the right time and more importantly how to read their body language.
It's clever stuff - but it's nothing paranormal.

Yep, for people whom have extraordinary social intelligence, reading /
manipulating people is a breeze. In this experiment there wont be an
opportunity for reading / manipulating me.
 
I reread the whole thread today. That Victor Zammit sounds, well, verging on psychotic. Is he really an ex-High Court Judge of Australia??

I could not actually find any substance in his critique of Randi, I'm afraid, so let's talk about his new conditions for the test.

Minimal changes needed

For a realistic and practical challenge the following minimal conditions have to be observed:

the challenge be absolutely and unqualifiedly subject to the jurisdiction of the courts (some acceptable redrafting of the skeptic's offer would be essential).
I don't suppose Randi would object to this. The point is that the tests are absolutely unambiguous in their result, and the negative outcome (so far) has obviously been as evident to the claimant as to Randi and his co-workers.

the offerer's initial test (before the main psychic demonstration) be dispensed with in the case of accredited psychics.
Obviously part of the test claimants are being asked to pass does not allow for any such nonsensical pre-judging as being called "accredited psychics". It is precisely to determine if they can be described as accredited psychics that Randi offers the test for them to complete. In any case, what is the benefit of skipping the first test? As far as I was aware the preliminary test is done under precisely the same conditions as the final (money) test. So there is no reason that a putative genuine psychic would be worried about performing the test successfully twice.

I think the reason for the preliminary test / final test procedure is that if someone did pass the preliminary test (nobody ever has) then Randi would provide for some substantial media coverage. I assume that the preliminary test is videotaped, but for a final test you'd want the highest quality professional TV/film equipment to record the momentous event.
that on successful completion of a psychic demonstration the monies be handed over to the psychic demonstrator forthwith ie, immediately after the applicant has fulfilled the fundamental condition of the challenge.
In the case of the final test (which has never been even attempted - passing the preliminary test is the prerequisite) I believe that this is already the policy of the Randi Challenge. As I have explained it seems likely to me that a successful result of the preliminary test will put the final test in the full view of the media spotlight, so were such an event to happen, we'd see on television the successful outcome and then Randi would step forward like Chris Tarrant or Regis Philbin with the cheque for one million dollars in his hand and give it straight over. At any rate, it states that the money is forthcoming instantly upon successful completion of the final test.

that the offerer not be anywhere where the psychic phenomenon is being demonstrated. This is because the offeror is technically an intruding negative extraneous variable and will inevitably make nugatory otherwise successful psychic tests - he exudes too much negativity for sensitives to operate properly. The offerer to appoint his agent acceptable to the applicant. He of course could watch and conduct the proceedings through closed circuit television.
I suppose this has to be judged on a case by case basis. However, the test has to be undertaken at the JREF and Randi's (volunteer, incidentally) co-workers are presumably just as skeptical and (by Zammit's argument) psi-inhibitory as Randi himself. Randi can hardly be expected to hand over the money when nobody he knows to be properly skeptical and trustworthy was present! He might as well hand the money over to John Edward or James Van Praagh and be done with it!

that at the time of meeting the challenge the conduct of the agent be neutral - specifically, no gratuitous aggression, no hostility or any other socially unacceptable conduct that would be construed to be an intrusion to the testing. Aggression precipitates negative vibrations which interferes with optimum psychic activity.
Well, I personally have not seen any tests take place, nor read any accounts of them, so I am unaware that during the preparation and actual taking of the preliminary test Randi and his staff stand around in aggressive postures shouting, "Loser, Gullible ass!" or alternatively "Cheat! Cheat! Cheat!" I myself imagined that Randi bends over backwards in order to ensure a totally neutral environment for the supposed psychic to get the best, verifiable result.

that the challenger allows agents of the applicants to negotiate on behalf of the applicant at all times.
I suppose that this is linked to the psi-inhibitory problem cited before. I've not myself seen any rule that states that Randi himself must meet the claimant personally. In any case, for every single test that has been undertaken so far, the conditions have been agreed with the claimant in advance.

that any envisaged changes to any of the agreed procedures or conditions be given in advance with 21 days notice in writing.
Why would there be any changes to the conditions by either party? Is this a known problem with the Randi Foundation? The conditions under which the claimant is to be tested is, as I said, agreed beforehand by the claimant. The claimant can then ask for changes, but they're not going to get any because they agreed to be tested under the conditions that Randi specified. Those conditions are simply designed to ensure that nothing whatsoever can affect the outcome of the test apart from whatever psionic power the claimant claims to possess. This is actually a protection for "genuine" psychics, since it specifically weeds out cheats and charlatans who would use some form of illusionism (a trick in other words) to achieve the effect and bag the million bucks.

that any experimentation be jointly controlled and agreement reached that there will be absolutely no interference whosoever during the performance of the psychic.
Already in the rules.

that written agreement as to what will constitute a successful demonstration of psychic phenomenon be made at least three weeks prior to any demonstration.
Again, what is with this three week limit? Apart from anything else, I've no doubt that such a time period invariably occurs in any case. The claimant has to write to Randi making her specific claim. Assuming that the claim falls within the rules of what they are willing to test, Randi then writes back with the conditions and the applicant has to agree to the conditions. No doubt it is not until both sides have agreed to the conditions that arrangements are made for the actual test to take place, and I've no doubt that this probably takes at least the three weeks that Zammit (dammit!) seems to find necessary.

This also was an interesting find on the Zammit page:
The 'EXPERIMENTER EFFECT.' The negatively minded skeptical experimenter will obtain negative results in psychic experiments notwithstanding other empiricists considered to be 'neutral' obtain positive results doing the same experiments. This is most relevant for those who genuinely want to test gifted psychics. See a most interesting example of the EXPERIMENTER EFFECT > Dr. Marilyn Schlitz neutral experimenter obtained positive results and Dr Richard Wiseman, who has a historical track record of finding against psychics - doing the same experiment as Dr Schlitz consistently obtained negative results
But Schlitz is not a neutral experimenter. She is the director of research at the Institute of Noetics - a body specifically working solely in the area of parapsychology.

As a matter of interest, there have been scientists reasonably well disposed towards psi powers who themselves have experimented and yet found no effect, which unfortunately they have attributed to their own psi-inhibitory nature rather than to their scientific integrity, which was what led them to be frank about the results from the experiments. According to Nicholas Humphrey's Soul Searching these included David Beloff and Susan Blackmore. I notice by the way that Dr Blackmore is a member of CSICOP, so I don't know if she had a change of heart.
 
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sorry sorry... i have been in the process of my move to belgium.
well send me a private message with a telephone number and i will call you sometime in the near future for arrangements.
 
i bended a spoon last sunday in a fast good joint ... most of the people over there could do it , hah ...

it was made of plastic :D
 
Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. Your spoon does not bend because it is just that, a spoon. Mine bends because there is no spoon, just my mind. Become the spoon and bend yourself.
 
The Devil Inside said:
sorry sorry... i have been in the process of my move to belgium.
well send me a private message with a telephone number and i will call you sometime in the near future for arrangements.

No problem. Moving's a bitch. I PM'd ya with my email address. Let's
e-chat and exhange #'s.
 
Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. Your spoon does not bend because it is just that, a spoon. Mine bends because there is no spoon, just my mind. Become the spoon and bend yourself.
:D hehe...
 
zion said:

I know... it's from the Matrix... but I realized that even if the movie itself is fictional, this part happened to be true... at least this part.

One thing seemed pretty stupid in the Matrix to me... the thing that, this world would be unreal, and the other one is real... I mean, how could they know the other one was real then? That world was just the same, ruled by our 5 senses which give the appearance of reality.
 
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