South park creators mock Muhammed, infuriate muslim.

[GeoffP]

Since when did one group of extremist become an entire Islamic world? I didn't hear from officials of 50 plus islamic countries asking not to run this show? did you? If you did, please do share. I am not trying to critique your point, just curious if there were any official statements from Islamic states.

Quite right, Jack: I allowed my loose language to incriminate Islamic people rather than the authorities that bind them. In my defense, it's hardly an uncommon error and one easy to make with colloquialisms. Your links, sir:

...

One year after the publication of the original cartoons, a video surfaced showing members of the Danish People's Party's youth wing engaged in a contest of drawing pictures that insult Muhammad. Publicity surrounding the contest led to renewed tension between the Islamic world and Denmark,[86] with the OIC and many countries weighing in. The Danish government condemned the youths, and those who were depicted in the video went into hiding after receiving death threats.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

The OIC did denounce the death threats against him (although what else they could have done is not clear) but their political pressure against Denmark is merely a softer form of the same attempt to control Western dialogue in the way that it is in the Middle East.

The Lars Vilks Muhammad drawings controversy began in July 2007 with a series of drawings by Swedish artist Lars Vilks which depicted the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a roundabout dog (a form of street installation in Sweden). Several art galleries in Sweden declined to show the drawings, citing security concerns and fear of violence. The controversy gained international attention after the Örebro-based regional newspaper Nerikes Allehanda published one of the drawings on 18 August to illustrate an editorial on self-censorship and freedom of religion.[1] While several other leading Swedish newspapers had published the drawings already, this particular publication led to protests from Muslims in Sweden as well as official condemnations from several foreign governments including Iran,[2] Pakistan,[3] Afghanistan,[4] Egypt,[5] and Jordan,[6] as well as by the inter-governmental Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC).[7] The controversy occurred about a year and a half after the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy in Denmark in early 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_controversy

 

[iceaura]

She did shit. She was addressing the widows, not the event itself, get your story straight..

So the survivors and poisoned cleanup or rescue workers and families of the immediately killed were not "victims", and widowing and cleanup and lawsuits and so forth were not "events of 9/11".

OK. But that narrow an ascription will be difficult to maintain elsewhere in this discussion.

Meanwhile, the reason I pointed to Coulter is that she mocked and made fun, like a humorous cartoonist, unlike your example of Churchill, who lacks humor in general.

But the contrast between the reception of Coulter's mockery and Churchill's more sober treatment is interesting: Churchill was much more accurate and reasonable, and one might guess that this had something to do with the response - on the principle that truth hurts more than falsehood.

Which adds a dimension to the discussion of America's calm acceptance of the insulting and the offensive: we don't endow anyone with possession of the whole truth, and this draws the sting of whatever anyone says.

And those of us who do endow entities with the whole truth, do get very bent about insults and "free speech" that casts them in a bad light.

 

[Adstar]

Actually, no it isn't. Desisting from mockery is surrendering one's own values, if those values involve mockery - which Australian values often do. The Australian mocks even himself, which I happen to believe is rather healthy.

Don't confuse the Australian tradition of knocking down the "tall poppy" (using satire to deflate someone who is puffed up with self pride) with mocking a faith belief. While it is good to deflate pride in another what we are talking about here is something that people hold with love/respect/veneration/honor.

knocking down the tall poppy does not work with religion it has the opposite effect.

Me too. I don't loathe it though - I tend to think of it as one of the lesser of several evils.
I suspect that having actually experienced the alternatives, you might too.

So you don't loathe "lesser evils"?

That’s like saying one should not loathe wife abuse because one has experienced incest.

Evil is Evil. lesser or greater makes no difference.

I have seen the kingdom of God it is the alternative i compare all things too.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

While it is good to deflate pride in another what we are talking about here is something that people hold with love/respect/veneration/honor.

Should other's respect something solely because it is loved, respected, venerated and honored by others? Is it required and if so how.

What of Spk's and other artists, writers and thinkers in the West love, respect and honor of freedom of expression? Should that not also be respected?

The Spk creators didn't leave their space and go into someone else's space to practice their freedoms so why should it be curtailed?

 

[RickyH]

This thread is bullshit, honestly. It's like watching msnbc. From front to back it's hardly even worth looking at.

What sense does it make to be mad over some one else getting mad about some made for teens cartoon? Fuck it I say. Matt and Trey are mature enough to handle their own problems and the muslims can handle their own problems just the same.

None of you honestly give a shit about what these muslims think or say half the time so why care when they bash some stupid cartoon?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

This thread is bullshit, honestly. It's like watching msnbc. From front to back it's hardly even worth looking at.

What sense does it make to be mad over some one else getting mad about some made for teens cartoon? Fuck it I say. Matt and Trey are mature enough to handle their own problems and the muslims can handle their own problems just the same.

None of you honestly give a shit about what these muslims think or say half the time so why care when they bash some stupid cartoon?

Hey Ricky,

I don't think the discussion really hinges on whether people are angry about what muslims think. Its more of whether artists, thinkers, writers etc should censor themselves over what muslims think. Should Comedy Central out of fear of extremist response censor or even cut all together an Spk episode over threats made by muslims? Should newspapers censor their cartoonists out of fear of muslim response? That I think is the issue. And if the answer is yes then there is the issue of how much of ones values or freedoms should be curtailed in order to not offend another.

 

[RickyH]

To any sane person the answer is obviously no, they shouldn't be censored. So by that logic, it's insane to discuss it.

The muslims won't do anything, it's simply being blown out of proportion. Like msnbc is on every story in the middle east.

I'll bet some online terrorist cell (responsible for the horrible war crimes of bashing people online and watching too many cartoons) is making the threats if there is in fact any real threat.

 

[RickyH]

On that note, celebrities who ridicule people publicly usually get death threats. Whether it be Roger Maris when he was officially dubbed The M&M Boys with Mickey Mantle, or Eminem when he made his first major debut or even simplier things like Martin Luther King Jr and Ghandi.

 

[The Marquis]

Don't confuse the Australian tradition of knocking down the "tall poppy" (using satire to deflate someone who is puffed up with self pride) with mocking a faith belief. While it is good to deflate pride in another what we are talking about here is something that people hold with love/respect/veneration/honor.

Australians tend to hold themselves in... respect, veneration, and honour.
That does not prevent them from making light of themselves whenever it seems fun to do so.
Look, if you've got a problem with someone disrespecting your beliefs - deal with it. I have my own set of beliefs - I'll argue them until the sun goes down. I will not, however, dictate them as demands to everyone who disagrees.
You do not demand respect. You earn it.

Now, on to this... confused perception of yours. You're confusing the tall poppy syndrome with making light of oneself. Are you sure you live here? Are you a shut in?
The tall poppy syndrome doesn't include only those who are puffed up with self-importance. In Australia, it includes everyone who is successful. Steve Irwin could hardly be described as someone puffed up with self-importance, yet he was the object of ridicule here for some time - until he died. Then he was an object of veneration.

Perhaps your misunderstading is derived from your own sense of self-worth?

knocking down the tall poppy does not work with religion it has the opposite effect.

I wold hardly call Islam a "tall poppy".
And who cares? Do you honestly think the mormon doorknockers are the subject of ridicule because they're circumspect about their beliefs?

So you don't loathe "lesser evils"?

I didn't say I loathed anyone - you did.

Evil is Evil. lesser or greater makes no difference.

...and here

I have seen the kingdom of God it is the alternative i compare all things too.

... is where we part company.

 

[Syzygys]

Should other's respect something solely because it is loved, respected, venerated and honored by others?

Should? Probably not, but that is how it is in society. 98% of the religions are sheer idiocy and shouldn't be respected at all, nevertheless we do. Why? Tradition. Christianity is just as stupid as Scientology, but it has a 2000 year headstart. So we ridicule Scientology, but generally respect Christianity.

Should it be? This whole thread is about what it is, not how it should be...

The Spk creators didn't leave their space and go into someone else's space to practice their freedoms so why should it be curtailed?

This is the 21st century and internet and such, so there are no more spaces. We are one global community... Also, most likely Muslims live next door to the creators, and you don't know their feelings...

 

[Adstar]

Should other's respect something solely because it is loved, respected, venerated and honored by others? Is it required and if so how.

You don't get it. I know that muslims love, respect, venerate and honor islam, but i have no respect for islam. On the country, i see islam as a evil lie. Now because muslims are my fellow human beings i am called on by my Messiah to love them, i do not wish to cause them unnecessary hurt for nothing. (and thats what satirical mockery does) If my words cause hurt to a muslim i want it to have the chance of leading the muslim to rejecting islam as a lie, so that they may be saved.

If anyone here truly thinks that mockery ever does anything else but motivate the devout to passionately resist the mockers beliefs then they have rocks for brains.

What of Spk's and other artists, writers and thinkers in the West love, respect and honor of freedom of expression? Should that not also be respected?

Not when the motivating factor is to offend for no good resion but to offend.

Do these scumbags at south park think they are going to turn half hearted muslims into atheists by this crap? No they will spark the fire within them. You don't pour water on the flames when you mock, you pour petrol on the flames.

The Spk creators didn't leave their space and go into someone else's space to practice their freedoms so why should it be curtailed?

Far as i know there are from various sources between 2.5 and 5 million muslims in the USA. And many of them notably the African american islamic population where born in the USA. So what's this garbage argument about their space and your space.. You live in the same space. So when a muslim american finds out their kids have been watching a cartoon that attacks what they deem to be an essential part of their children’s eternal existence you can be sure that they will be infuriated and wish those SOB,s at South park DEAD.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

This whole thread is about what it is, not how it should be...



This is the 21st century and internet and such, so there are no more spaces. We are one global community... Also, most likely Muslims live next door to the creators, and you don't know their feelings

And don't you think that the creators of Spk know how things are? They know the risks and choose to exercise their freedom of expression regardless of the hypersensitive thought controlling fundie extremists.

It seems the gist of what you are saying is that since there are muslims out there that everyone else should consider their feelings, but you don't give any thought to what it means in the long run to the freedom of expression of others within their own domain. Like I said Spk made their show for those who love what they do, within their own domain. I don't believe that another group has the right to decide what goes on in their domain. If they don't like it they are free to ignore it or simply change the channel.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Adstar: You don't get it. I know that muslims love, respect, venerate and honor islam, but i have no respect for islam. On the country, i see islam as a evil lie. Now because muslims are my fellow human beings i am called on by my Messiah to love them, i do not wish to cause them unnecessary hurt for nothing. (and thats what satirical mockery does) If my words cause hurt to a muslim i want it to have the chance of leading the muslim to rejecting islam as a lie, so that they may be saved. /

Well besides the fact that telling them their belief is a lie isn't a sign of respect you assume that the creators of Spk are religious or have a religious sensibility and if their show is any indication I would think not. The only people who need respect their religion are those who belong to it. Why should anyone else not be free to express what they like about said religion? They could easily look at your attitude towards their belief as another way of causing them unnecessary hurt. I don't believe that the creators of Spk care if muslims follow Islam as long as it doesn't interfere with their personal and creative freedoms.

Adstar: If anyone here truly thinks that mockery ever does anything else but motivate the devout to passionately resist the mockers beliefs then they have rocks for brains.

The form of satire (they didn't mock islam) isn't meant to change Muslims or their ideology anymore than their jokes concerning jews or ginger people makes the case that they should desist being red heads or jewish.


Adstar: Not when the motivating factor is to offend for no good resion but to offend.

But that is not their motivating factor. Satire is meant to highlight social or political contradictions.


Adstar: Do these scumbags at south park think they are going to turn half hearted muslims into atheists by this crap? No they will spark the fire within them. You don't pour water on the flames when you mock, you pour petrol on the flames.

Spk also satirizes atheists so why do you think that they are trying to turn others into atheists?



Adstar: Far as i know there are from various sources between 2.5 and 5 million muslims in the USA. And many of them notably the African american islamic population where born in the USA. So what's this garbage argument about their space and your space.. You live in the same space. So when a muslim american finds out their kids have been watching a cartoon that attacks what they deem to be an essential part of their children’s eternal existence you can be sure that they will be infuriated and wish those SOB,s at South park DEAD.

The number of muslims is besides the point, they are not living in a muslim nation but a secular nation. When I refer to 'their space' I am referring to the show they produce. It is within their rights to create what they will for 'their viewing audiences' and for 'their show' which is 'their space'. If muslims or others are offended by the show they need not watch it. They have their space to issue death threats (which by the way is hosted from overseas) don't they? If Spk went to a muslim country or into a mosque and forced their show on adherents then I would agree with you but they did not do that. They air their show on the Comedy Channel and on the internet (www.southparkstudios.com)

 

[Syzygys]

They know the risks and choose to exercise their freedom of expression regardless of the hypersensitive thought controlling fundie extremists.

Good for them. Now they can reap the fruit of it.

If they don't like it they are free to ignore it or simply change the channel.

Wait a moment please...

[running for the Koran, checking something]

OK, I am back, I remembered correctly. The Koran doesn't say "change the channel", it says "cut their heads off".... Just so you know.....
The college didn't say: they should just ignore the professor if they don't like his opinion, they cancelled the event.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Good for them. Now they can reap the fruit of it.



Wait a moment please...

[running for the Koran, checking something]

OK, I am back, I remembered correctly. The Koran doesn't say "change the channel", it says "cut their heads off".... Just so you know.....
The college didn't say: they should just ignore the professor if they don't like his opinion, they cancelled the event.

Oh I am not worried about Spk. As i pointed out earlier the fundies have not been very successful in slaying all those on their death list. If anything Spk will join the other's who have earned respect for exercising their rights and not backing away out of fear. Courage has always been a very admirable trait. At least they don't show themselves as weak and cowardly.

That's interesting what you say of the Koran. If so then why don't all muslims espouse to those type of actions? Why are so many muslims disgusted with the fundies who give them and their religion a bad name? There are muslims that would argue that this is not what the Koran encourages from its followers. Just the same way there is nothing in the Koran that demands women drape themselves in a black sack.

 

[Adstar]

That's interesting what you say of the Koran. If so then why don't all muslims espouse to those type of actions? Why are so many muslims disgusted with the fundies who give them and their religion a bad name? There are muslims that would argue that this is not what the Koran encourages from its followers. Just the same way there is nothing in the Koran that demands women drape themselves in a black sack.

Because most muslims are like most people who claim to be christians they are not true to following the word of the one they claim to follow.

Most muslims are compromising muslims who prefer the path of least resistance. They don't want to go out and smite people until all the world is in submission to islam and there is no other religion. So they are like compromising christians who pick and choose from their teachings what they will follow and what they will not follow. The muslims who argue that the quran does not teach them to go out and fight jihad are false muslims.

Actually it is refreshing to see an honest muslim come in here and reveal what the quran tells them to do.

Syzygys

Wait a moment please...

[running for the Koran, checking something]

OK, I am back, I remembered correctly. The Koran doesn't say "change the channel", it says "cut their heads off".... Just so you know.....

So now you know.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Because most muslims are like most people who claim to be christians they are not true to following the word of the one they claim to follow.

Most muslims are compromising muslims who prefer the path of least resistance. They don't want to go out and smite people until all the world is in submission to islam and there is no other religion. So they are like compromising christians who pick and choose from their teachings what they will follow and what they will not follow. The muslims who argue that the quran does not teach them to go out and fight jihad are false muslims.

Actually it is refreshing to see an honest muslim come in here and reveal what the quran tells them to do.

And who is this 'honest muslim'?

 

[Adstar]

And who is this 'honest muslim'?

The ones they refer to as radicals. The ones that most people call fundamentalists and terrorists. The ones out to violently destroy anything in the world that does not conform to islam.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[fatesrych1]

Even though Christians are retarded,

the muslims win the award of the most retarded and hostile religion.

But nothing can beat Creationists when it comes to pure mental retardness.

 

[S.A.M.]

Even though Christians are retarded,

the muslims win the award of the most retarded and hostile religion.

But nothing can beat Creationists when it comes to pure mental retardness.

quoted for scientific objectivity and on-topicness.